Ratings?

[robinhoodnik]

Why are the ratings absolutely useless now? I'm getting players that drop 5+ points in one sim (I just had two guys drop from stars to average joe, the 34 year old was expected eventually, the 29 year old is yet another unpleasant surprise.). I'm getting 4th round FA pickup pitchers that suddenly develop into major league talent in one fill in promotion sim(one in which they fill in for an injured player). I have several players who sit in the minors and do nothing until they're promoted to the majors. Then they suddenly develop 15 points in a month. If you're going to do something with all of the ratings, do it right or don't bother. And please, how about an answer on why a guy with a rocket arm and bad fielding moves from third to first, his fielding is still bad but now his arm is useless and his range drops too? The same goes for weak armed center fielders, move them and 9 out of ten times their range falls to at best average. Yes, this is my first 2006 rosters league too. That's why I took so long to start complaining about these irrational calculations. I'm going to start looking for 2005 or older leagues to join as this is just pointless.:mad: :mad: :mad:

[robinhoodnik]

bump.

[robinhoodnik]

Taking some time away from BBMO. Hopefully more time can be devoted to improving it in the not too distant future.:rolleyes:

[robinhoodnik]

Does anyone besides players and mods actually read BBMO boards anymore? I think that Shacky had it right, maybe we need to add a questions AND answers thread to this forum.

[robinhoodnik]

Glad that I'm no longer a customer of BMO. I guess that since I also bought BBM again this season, I'm still technically a customer though.:rolleyes:

[ohms_law]

*scratches head*
not that I don't beleave that some things could be fixed or improved but... what's wrong exactly? From what i've seen, Clay and Dee seem to have responded to service problems when they occur.

[robinhoodnik]

They do an excellent job with BM. Not so good lately with BMO or updating it.

[ohms_law]

well... any actual update to the game engine would probably require some sort of shut down. everyone would need to be prepared for that, and ultimately they would probably loose customers before getting any back. There was a thread around here from a couple of weeks ago where Clay basically said that, i'll have to find it.
That being said, interface improvements could certainly be made without changing the sim engine behind BMO.

[robinhoodnik]

There are a few upgrades that most players would live with a temporary shutdown to see incorporated.

[dreifort2]

I notice dramtic swings in player ratings in new mogul databases.

I am assuming this is sort of like some Hot and Cold streaks for players? not sure.

I do notice that majority of ratings are pt'less to begin with anyway.

70 rated pitcher with 70s indvidual ratings going 18-3 2.50 ERA for a winning team while a 90 rated pitcher with mid 80s and up individual ratings going 5-15 with 5.00 ERA for losing teams.

I expect to see player boost in performance on winning teams, but that's absurd.

[shacky123]

I dont' care about them shutting down, and when I said their customer service blows sheep balls, I'm not talking about them making corrections. I'm only asking that maybe once in awhile the operators of this game answer a question or two!! They have a general questions thread set up for that!! I've sent emails which have gone unanswered!! If there are serious problems or issues, or suggestions, the operators of this game should at a minimum periodically respond to them.:mad:

All that said, I don't see anything wrong with the ratings. I've been able to build winning teams in the 06 & 07 BBMO versions. I don't see an issue.

[dreifort2]

I dont' care about them shutting down, and when I said their customer service blows sheep balls, I'm not talking about them making corrections. I'm only asking that maybe once in awhile the operators of this game answer a question or two!! They have a general questions thread set up for that!! I've sent emails which have gone unanswered!! If there are serious problems or issues, or suggestions, the operators of this game should at a minimum periodically respond to them.:mad:

All that said, I don't see anything wrong with the ratings. I've been able to build winning teams in the 06 & 07 BBMO versions. I don't see an issue.

learn to read.... no wonder the BMO staff doesn't reply to emails or questions. Ppl can't read. This thread is NOT about building winning teams because ratings are wrong. It's about ratings jumping all over the place. One day Delwyn Young is 70+(82), the next sim he's 85++(100)...then few sims later he's 82+(90).

all within one season.

learn to read and quit trying to act like a know-it-all on abandoned forums.

[ohms_law]

dreifort, instead of venting you're frustrations on everyone here, why not take a break for a while? If you're that frustrated with the game and the service, you can always choose to do what robin has done and walk for a while.

[dreifort2]

I don't need a break...

but I'm sick of ppl who come in here NOT the help, but try to correct.

Did you write the game code? No. Then how can you correct if it's not yours.



... I come in here and "comment" on ppl's topics. Robinhoodnik says ratings are odd lately, I concur with him. I don't reply to Robinhoodnik saying "You're just stupid the game is normal because I say it is."

I actually READ what ppl write and comment on it. I don't try to tell ppl they are wrong. I don't try to tell ppl what I want them to hear. I actually provide the facts for ppl - who IF they read it would see the facts and actually see I can PROVE anything from Injury probems to Random Ratings.

I've proven over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over that injuries have issues. But ppl like Shacky read 2 words, then reply to post without reading and seeing PROOF.

When the facts and proof are finally brought to attn, ppl like Shacky use the all clever response, "you must be doing something wrong, the game is fine".

And with each response like that, it just proves that 80% of the ppl who post in here can't read.

...again, sad. :mad:

[Kotoll]

you must be doing something wrong, the game is fine

[SirKodiak]

roflmao

[ohms_law]

nice.
:)

[dreifort2]

you must be doing something wrong, the game is fine

at least someone pays attention to understand sarcasm. haha.

in ohm's world - he thinks his problems lie within his strategies, lol. or is that shacky? hmmmm....

[shacky123]

I will definetly concur with your CF assessment. Moving a great defensive CF'er to a corner outfield position renders that player completely useless, after a season or two his defense gets completely shot! Range, fielding, and even his arm get negatively affected?? I'm sorry, but a guy like Andruw Jones, Torii Hunter, Ken Griffey (in his prime), etc. etc. will be a gold glover in left, center, or right field. It may take a little while as I know the ball comes off the bat differently, but BBMO exagerates that one way too much. Its gotten to the point where its impossible to change a guys position.

In addition to giving teams SOME control over what level a minor league plays at (rookie ball for 6 years wtf???) we should also be able to change his positions in the minors, and maybe alot some cash/expenditures towards minor league coaching philosphies ie fielding, OBP, hit for power, contact, control, movement (maybe even add a pitch to a pitchers repotoire). There's alot that can be done. I'd be interested in something simple, just let me take a short period of lumps before a star defensive player gets comfortable at another position and then fields that new position well.

[robinhoodnik]

In AGML2 I had moved Grady Sizemore to left to lessen the effects of a weak arm and David Wright (both were still in their 20's) from third to first because I had a younger slugger to put there. What happened? They both sucked and were ruined. Neither could defend their new position at all. Same with Plummer. I converted him from closer to starter and his power went down constantly while his peak followed. His control and movement went up but he wasn't a power pitcher anymore. There were plenty of other examples of players like that on my Red Sox team alone. I'd bring up a guy and his ratings would go through the roof in one 10 day sim, others would go from great, to average, no matter their age. It wasn't happening in LXGM's as that league has been running without a reset for a long time so the difference was glaring. You can have +-0 scouting and still be off by as much as 8 points. Dropping 30 million into scouting gets you what 2 million used to get you. I can't even imagine how bad it can get for small market teams. Yes, you can use stats, but it was nice to quickly look at your developing players and see whether they were advancing or stalled. I heard the criticism on people who use scouting already and I don't agree with it. Any advantage, is a good advantage, in my book. It's kinda like equalized baseball, but in a different way now. You sign four players for 50 million in the offseason, and it's an even bet that two will bomb costing you 25 million. Never mind the fact that no one responds to the BBMO boards anymore.

[bmoseley07]

I completely agree with Robinhood. And whoever said that Dreifort should just take a break from the game is retarded. The reason why we're in here and still playing the game is because it's a great game (not perfect by any means) but great nonetheless and we would like to make it better.

Unfortunatly, Clay and everybody at BM doesn't seem to recognize the need to hire somebody to run BMO. Apparently Clay thought it would run itself once it was set up.

While I completely understand that the computer game is the more popular and should have more of the focus then the online game, I don't think it warrents an 100% focus while BMO gets zero love and attention. Makes no sense, and makes me as a customer not want to even buy the computer game any more because of the cold shoulder I've and many other BMO lifers have received.

I've been playing the game for a while and have noticed a lot of things. I don't know if it's that BM doesn't want to take the time to read and understand the problems so here's an easy-to-read list of the basic problems in no real order:

1. Too many players in the same position have the same exact attributes for all the different categories. If you need examples, I can show them.

2. Ratings take odd jumps. Example: I had a LF prospect in AAA who started the season rated 79(94). By the time September rolled around he gained only one point on his current rating. I brought him up to start for the last month of the season and one or two sims later, he's up to an 88(100). I was pretty sure that the most jump was supposed to be in the minors. I understand that players shouldn't always have the same peak and all that so a 6th rounder could actually become a somewhat decent player but when the rating jumps take place don't make too much sense.

3. Relievers are overworked. This is something that has nothing to do with settings. I have them set at normal for anybody that asks. The problem is that the same two relievers get thrown out there every single day. Those pitchers would be the set-up man and the short reliever. The set-up guys getting the brunt of the work though. I go back and check my box scores after every sim and I see him going out there every game sometimes and getting light up by the third appearance. This has nothing to do with the other relievers in the pen and it shouldn't. If a guy needs rest he should be thrown out there so there should be an option for that. Basically if your starters dont go 8 innings a game then this problem arises.

4. Players play bad on a bad teams and good on good teams. Makes sense right. Well not nessecarily. Usually teams are bad because the players are bad. That's not always the case in BMO, where mid-70's rated SP's are having Cy Young years on good teams and Cy Young's are having horrible seasons on bad teams. I understand that this should happen sometimes, but not all the time. Basically if you have a team that wins all the time, you can stick anybody in there and they'll produce. That mid-70's SP who's playing great on a perenially good team, plays outragously horrible on a bad team. And if you disagree with me on this point, you obviously haven't been paying attention.

5. Veiwing stats sucks. Currently the only stats provided are year-to-date and previous seasons, so there is no way to see how a player has performed in the last month or anything. I think the player profile setup imployed in the BM2K7 game should be put in BMO. It shouldn't be that hard. All that need's to be done is to hire a good web-designer who knows AJAX. This a huge problem I think because without it, we have to go through every single box score to see how much better they're doing.

Although I love the game and a lot of it's features such as free agency bidding and the trading blocks, I feel that those problems that I have mentioned above are the most serious and should be fixed ASAP. If I have missed any huge problems, please post them.

I love this game and all but it can't be ignored by Clay and the rest of the crew. We're paying for this game for a reason, and that money should go to making it better, or there is no point for us to stick around.

[bmoseley07]

Same with Plummer. I converted him from closer to starter and his power went down constantly while his peak followed. His control and movement went up but he wasn't a power pitcher anymore.

This one actually makes sense, because as a close you are able to pitch much harder then a starter who has to keep some energy for later in the game. This would also effect his peak as he wouldnt' be as good as a starter then a closer.

[robinhoodnik]

Every fall, his peak would drop, every spring when baseball started again, it would rise and give him basically a whole different set of ratings. Yes, he can't go as hard for as long, but he's probably not going to drop a lot of power over the winter, every season. Things were overdone with the last update. If you're going to have a change from power to control pitcher it should come with a serious injury. No one goes home every winter and comes back with a whole new repetoire of pitches, speeds, and apparantly locations for them all. You don't expect anything when converting a closer but this is just a bit too much. The only consistent thing was that his stamina was at 69 like most reliever conversions tend to max out at.

[shacky123]

I dunno........I've never had a player drop ALOT during the winter, and I know for a fact Plummer's didn't either. They all seem to drop a few points, which imo is a fair simulation as MLB players aren't at their peak during the winter. Hence, "spring training", where players get back into form. For example, BJ Upton in the same league Plummer was in would drop down as far as 90 overall after the season, and then by mid April early may be back up to 100 overall every season. I have yet to see a major swing w/o an injury or aging situation.

[ohms_law]

@robin: when did you start LoXGM's?

I have a theory that the league's real age may be having an impact on these things. I'm not seeing complaints from people that are playing in leagues that started years ago.

[robinhoodnik]

I didn't start it, but I joined before the first sim, April (I think) of '05 . There was only one reset which came around December of '05. And Shacky, he lost his power. He had 90+ power and low control when I first brought him up as a trial at the age of about 20. He got about a K per inning which steadily dropped after becoming a starter. Every season, his peak and skills would go down. Peak went under 90 usually. Spring came and his peak would go back up, but again, he'd lose points there and power. Every season which got worse after his conversion to starter. I was getting trade offers for him several times a day before the ratings changes, none after the last round of "randomness" was installed. You weren't paying as much attention as you think you were with him.

[robinhoodnik]

I think that LXGM's took a bit of time to fill up and get started so it was actually around for at least two weeks before the first sim. I just checked it out. It was actually June third of '05 that the first forum post was made in the LXGM's forum.

[robinhoodnik]

Because the older ones don't have the ratings swings that the '06 leagues do. LXGM's had nothing like this going on ever.

[shacky123]

Plummers ratings went down because you ruined him by making him a starter. As his power decreased, his control & stamina increased, which is common for any releiver with a 20 stamina rating made to a starter. I was very interested in Plummer, but honestly knew when you made him a starter he wouldn't be worth trading for.

[robinhoodnik]

And Juicepigs constantly converting closers to successful starters was also predicted by you? Plummers ratings were dropping and changing when he was still a closer. That's the biggest reason I took the chance and made him a starter. He was a good starter too, so he wasn't "ruined". He was a different pitcher than he started out as, it happened at a very young age, and without an injury to explain it. I also had another top closer prospect in line behind him.

[shacky123]

Well, we agree to disagree on Plummer. I did in fact watch him closely as I was in need of a real closer and tried on several attempts to obtain him before you made him a starter.

You say you didn't "ruin" him, but earlier stated you were getting a ton of trade offers for him before the ratings change, and after the ratings changed you didn't get the offers. What's that tell you?

His ratings did not decline permanently until he was made a closer. Just like every player right now, they all decline at seasons end, and go back to normal in April, which as I've explained earlier makes perfect sense to me. Plummers permanent ratings change occured when he was made a starter, as his power dropped greatly, and his stamina and control raised. He was still an effective starter, but not the dominant pitcher he was as a closer.

Regarding juicepigs...... i too have had alot of success making relievers into starters, but I've learned the hard way, as you have whether or not you realize it with plummer, that there's some that can be effectively moved to starters, and there's some that should remain relievers. You have to be prepared for a power drop, and a control increase, and have to make an educated guess based on the pitchers ratings as a reliever if those changes would make him an effective starter. Regardless of whether you believe me or not, I did watch your Plummer situation very closely, and was very disappointed when you made him a starter because I felt his ratings couldn't support the change and he'd be less dominant.

Take this as constructive criticism, but I don't look at this situation as "randomness of the ratings" as you've put it, I look at it as an inexperienced GM making a bad move which caused a players ratings to suffer. If your going to move any player out of position, you have to be prepared for the ratings to change, and have some idea where those ratings may end up. I will agree that BBMO at times does not fairly or accurately alter ratings when moving players out of position (i point to the gold glove CF moved to LF who suddenly can't defend at all as a solid example) but feel that BBMO is pretty accurate when moving relievers to starters. As others in here have mentioned, its fairly understandable that a releiver with poor stamina will have to pace themselves and give up power to pitch longer into the game, and that less power should cause higher control. Very predictable ratings changes.

[ohms_law]

This discussion has occured for the regular version of Mogul as well. Sounds to me as though the system is very similar.

[boomboom]

This discussion has occured for the regular version of Mogul as well. Sounds to me as though the system is very similar.

The Cascade League is based on 2004 rosters(see below why this is relevant)...BMO is based off of BM2k6 code. I believe that there will be an update soon. But with Beta going on, I doubt it, and it really is a shame. Cause most of us pay $14.95 per month for this.

Just wish for some update.

I am not seeing this in the CL, but in other leagues it is happening all over the place.

In the 2005 rosters that were relased. I was seeing ratings jumping all over the place---mostly due to crappy prospects deluding the great players the game started with. It would take about 5-10 seasons before you could get a good prospect. Than 15-20 before it all leveled out than the ratings jumping would stop.

I think this needs to be addressed.

[ohms_law]

Interesting. That's why I brought this up earlier:

I have a theory that the league's real age may be having an impact on these things. I'm not seeing complaints from people that are playing in leagues that started years ago.

From what I can tell, the model used for converting pitchers to/from relievers hasn't changed since Mogul 2004, has it? I went looking through the patch posts in the bugs forum, and haven't seen anything about converting pitchers ratings.

[boomboom]

There is no change, but an injury from being pitched too much could effect ratings...you have to pick the right pitchers thou, some with low movement will get hammered.

[ohms_law]

yea, that's what I figured. Mogul 2k7 exhibits generally the same bahavior when trying to convert relievers to starters and vice versa.

I do know that the effect of individual ratings has been heavily tweaked since 2004. that could be exacerbating the effects somewhat, but the general prinicles still apply.

[Clay Dreslough]

They do an excellent job with BM. Not so good lately with BMO or updating it.We're in a tricky place with BMO. Namely, if you look at the current BB2K7 code, we still don't have a final patch -- because there are still some notable bugs and/or AI issues.

One issue in particular is that player ratings drops precipitously in BB2K7 a lot more often than they do in BMO. If we updated the code in BMO to match that in BB2K7, we would get some of the new AI and features from BB2K7 -- but we'd also get the negative side effects like this.

The bigger rating drops are essentially by design. That is, I've changed the development engine on purpose to make BB2K7 less predictable. But I'm guessing more than half the BMO players would HATE to see this happening to some of their key players.

So I'm waiting to merge these updates into BMO until we've ironed out issues like this.

We have added small features, like the ability to view more team stats on the Standings Page. But I'm not going to make any large scale changes until we get the gameplay and AI tested by the BB2K7 users (and probably the BB2K8 beta testers).

Clay

[ohms_law]

interesting. that gives me more incentive to do those graphs that I was doing...

[robinhoodnik]

Shacky, you're full of it. You seem to have a nasty habit of dismissing any view that differs from your own with an "inexperienced", "bad GM", or some other similar remark about people. I had Isenhauer languishing in the minors for years when he was suddenly forced into the rotation, he blossomed. Same with another pitcher I had a similar situation with, whose name escapes me now. Plummers power started leaving him after his first season. It was like getting a new pitcher every year. What can you do? I built two different, championship teams in that league, from nearly scratch, in under 5 seasons. Inexperienced? I think you're mistaken.

[robinhoodnik]

We're in a tricky place with BMO. Namely, if you look at the current BB2K7 code, we still don't have a final patch -- because there are still some notable bugs and/or AI issues.

One issue in particular is that player ratings drops precipitously in BB2K7 a lot more often than they do in BMO. If we updated the code in BMO to match that in BB2K7, we would get some of the new AI and features from BB2K7 -- but we'd also get the negative side effects like this.

The bigger rating drops are essentially by design. That is, I've changed the development engine on purpose to make BB2K7 less predictable. But I'm guessing more than half the BMO players would HATE to see this happening to some of their key players.

So I'm waiting to merge these updates into BMO until we've ironed out issues like this.

We have added small features, like the ability to view more team stats on the Standings Page. But I'm not going to make any large scale changes until we get the gameplay and AI tested by the BB2K7 users (and probably the BB2K8 beta testers).

Clay
Thanks for the reply.
What exactly goes into the ratings changes? Some players are radically changed over one or two seasons (The pitcher I mentioned above), while others are left mostly untouched (they bounce right back without any ability loss)? How about the positional change items? Will the AI be adjusted to allow for a weak armed CF with great range and fielding to be moved to a corner without his other attributes suffering as much, as often? Same with the 3rd to 1st switches. I know they don't always work out, but most third basemen could do a pretty good job across the diamond. It (AI) seems to over compensate for the changes in most cases of positional switches that I've noticed.

[shacky123]

You should read bud...i posted that we agree to disagree on Plummer. As far as the inexperienced part, it was pretty clear I was referencing your experience on making RP's into SP's. This was the only view I "dismissed" because as I said I watched Plummer very closely and know for sure he didn't decline (with the exception of the year end decline which he gets back when the next season begins) until he was made a starter.

I didn't dismiss any of your other comments, and agree with many. The prospects who make huge jumps when going into MLB I have seen. I don't necessarily have a problem with it though, and also feel it simulates real life. Not all prospects in BBMO make those big jumps, but as in real life, some prospects blossom after they go to the majors.

The complaint years ago was that the game was far too predicatable. Players in one league who became stars would always be stars in other leagues which started later. Those who had multiple leagues and knew these players would always trade for them and reap rewards. The game was also too predicable because 90+ rated prospects would always work out and become stars if in a good farm system. That is not realistic at all. I'd love to see MLB's percentages of #1 draft picks who become allstars. I would bet its very low.

I happen to like what I see now. Without any scientific data, I see players who progress differently based on how they are handled. Some progress quicker if given time in the majors, some need alot of time in the minors, some or many don't reach their max rating or even get close to it even if originally 100 max!! If what you guys are trying to accomplish is making everything so predictable where a 100 max rated prospect would always reach that 100 rating then I want no part of it.

Other compliants I've seen is the complaint of players mysteriously dropping or gaining 20+ pts in one sim. The gain I can see with prospects who make big jumps after being placed in the majors. 20pts I haven't seen, but I have seen big jumps. The drops I have never seen, unless injury, poor scouting, or age is the cause. I have been in many leagues and have watched this closely after hearing the complaints and have never seen this. I have come to the opinion that some have greatly exagerrated these "drops" because they are frustrated with occurrences such as yours with plummer.

I can understand your frustration with Plummer. He was one of the best relievers in the game and only maybe 24yrs old. You were getting a ton of offers, many from me, for his services, and those offers stopped coming when you made him a starter. As I said before, because of previous experiences I've had in converting RP'er, I knew Plummer would begin declining, and he wouldn't be worth trading for because you'd have to get alot in return based on his previous RP statistics and age. I considered dealing for him and putting him back as a RP, but I have no problem admitting that I am inexperienced with turning a SP into a RP. I do not know how their ratings would be effected, and Plummers asking price wasn't worth me finding out. I think if you want to use Plummer in your examples you need to accept some responsibity in his decline, and stop blaming the game.

Say what you want about Isenhauer, or anyone else. I didn't watch them, and could only try and speculate about what might have happened. Stop using Plummer though, because you and I both know he didn't decline until he was made a starter, except of course for the year end decline which he reacquired the next spring. Your exaggerating your Plummer experience only reaffirms my opinion that those complaining about randomness of ratings are doing it out of frustration. If I didn't see Plummer personally and very closely I couldn't make that claim.

[ohms_law]

Thanks for the reply.
What exactly goes into the ratings changes? Some players are radically changed over one or two seasons (The pitcher I mentioned above), while others are left mostly untouched (they bounce right back without any ability loss)? How about the positional change items? Will the AI be adjusted to allow for a weak armed CF with great range and fielding to be moved to a corner without his other attributes suffering as much, as often? Same with the 3rd to 1st switches. I know they don't always work out, but most third basemen could do a pretty good job across the diamond. It (AI) seems to over compensate for the changes in most cases of positional switches that I've noticed.

I don't really know what the back story between you and shacky is, so I'm not going to really get involved in that.

My only purpose in posting at this point is to point out that the bahavior that you're refering to is still very similar to what occurs in Mogul 2007. If you feel that this should be changed, then recreate the "problems" offline and bring them up in the regular Mogul forums. That would be your best in getting the situation resolved, in my view.

[robinhoodnik]

Agreed on the predictability issue. I think that guys who reach a point in ratings like 85/98 should also perform as an 85 player would. Again, you're wrong about Plummer. There never was an asking price for him, period. He was going nowhere, ever except maybe to the FA pool. I have converted RP's to SP's many times, and with some pretty solid results. Plummer was good, he wasn't a complete washout. His power was slipping as a closer, and like I said, I had another highly rated reliever who was putting up good numbers, coming down the line anyways. Plummer also could be converted to a starter because of his upcoming contractual demands. It may not have been worth it for me to keep him around as anything other than a starter. There was more than just one reason to convert him, lost power, looming large contract, stud RP prospect in line to take over CP duties, a few other good SP prospects also in line for the rotation in a year or so, an immediate need of a solid #4 or #5, Plummer made an excellent #3 and would have been likely to wind up a #2 on my team.

[robinhoodnik]

Nothing too horrible in the back story. Shacky is a good GM and active in league forums. We had some issues with him being stubborn, and he's probably got about the same impression of me.