Should there be a disparity beween players rating in the NL & AL ?

[FRENCHREDSOX]

After looking week after week at the various "Power Polls" & the results of Interleague play is the Junior circuit that much better than the senior circuit that their stats should have a superior value ?


Since 2 or 3 years various analysts (from the esteemed Peter GAMMONS to the more contreversial Ken ROSENTHAL) have been saying that the quality of play & players in the NL is "far" worse than in the AL;They point out the AL dominance in the All-Star Game,the constant failure of NL "Stars" when going to the AL (recent examples of Position failures include Renteria,Cirillo,Kendall but much more blatant with the pitchers like Clement,Pavano,Burkett,Jeff Weaver etc when they switched league to the AL )


Also the last 2 World series sweeps seems to emphasize this trend which culminated in this years' destruction of Nl teams in interleague...

Which brings me to the question are AL stats,due to the supposedly better competition & apparent "lesser" mediocraty,worth more than NL stats in the similar vein that AAA are worth more than AA ...?

[Sanji Watsuki]

After looking week after week at the various "Power Polls" & the results of Interleague play is the Junior circuit that much better than the senior circuit that their stats should have a superior value ?


Since 2 or 3 years various analysts (from the esteemed Peter GAMMONS to the more contreversial Ken ROSENTHAL) have been saying that the quality of play & players in the NL is "far" worse than in the AL;They point out the AL dominance in the All-Star Game,the constant failure of NL "Stars" when going to the AL (recent examples of Position failures include Renteria,Cirillo,Kendall but much more blatant with the pitchers like Clement,Pavano,Burkett,Jeff Weaver etc when they switched league to the AL )


Also the last 2 World series sweeps seems to emphasize this trend which culminated in this years' destruction of Nl teams in interleague...

Which brings me to the question are AL stats,due to the supposedly better competition & apparent "lesser" mediocraty,worth more than NL stats in the similar vein that AAA are worth more than AA ...?

Jeff Weaver is a poor example. He was a 3 ERA guy in Detroit before the Yankees poisoned him,

[FRENCHREDSOX]

Jeff Weaver is a poor example. He was a 3 ERA guy in Detroit before the Yankees poisoned him,

Yes but had 2 solid year back in NL with Dodgers(13 & 14 wins with 4.01 & 4.22 ERA) Career 4.44 ERA before re explosing in Orange County this year when came back to the AL - Beckett already doubling his HR career total etc

[Sanji Watsuki]

Yes but had 2 solid year back in NL with Dodgers(13 & 14 wins with 4.01 & 4.22 ERA) Career 4.44 ERA before re explosing in Orange County this year when came back to the AL - Beckett already doubling his HR career total etc

Jeff Weaver (Detroit, 2002): 6-8, 3.18 ERA
Jeff Weaver (NYY, 2003): 7-9, 5.99 ERA

Poisoned, not due to NL --> AL.

[SirKodiak]

Batters that 'Qualify' (i.e. 3.2 PA per team's games) in both leagues over time period 2004-2006. Names cut off at 7 letters to allow tabs to line up


Year Last First Tm Lg Pos G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB K BA OBP SLG OPS
2004 Beltre Adrian LAN NL 3B 156 657 598 104 200 32 0 48 121 53 87 0.334 0.388 0.629 1.017
2005 Beltre Adrian SEA AL 3B 156 650 603 69 154 36 1 19 87 38 108 0.255 0.303 0.413 0.716
2006 Beltre Adrian SEA AL 3B 133 573 523 73 137 35 4 16 62 41 97 0.262 0.325 0.436 0.761
2004 Byrnes Eric OAK AL LF 143 632 569 91 161 39 3 20 73 46 111 0.283 0.347 0.467 0.814
2006 Byrnes Eric ARI NL CF 117 496 455 67 126 34 3 20 61 32 70 0.277 0.330 0.497 0.827
2004 Castill Luis FLA NL 2B 150 649 564 91 164 12 7 2 47 75 68 0.291 0.373 0.348 0.720
2005 Castill Luis FLA NL 2B 122 524 439 72 132 12 4 4 30 65 32 0.301 0.391 0.374 0.765
2006 Castill Luis MIN AL 2B 119 545 493 77 145 19 5 3 45 41 47 0.294 0.348 0.371 0.719
2004 Conine Jeff FLA NL LF 140 579 521 55 146 35 1 14 83 48 78 0.280 0.340 0.432 0.772
2006 Conine Jeff BAL AL 1B 114 432 389 43 103 20 3 9 49 35 53 0.265 0.325 0.401 0.726
2004 Delgado Carlos TOR AL 1B 128 551 458 74 123 26 0 32 99 69 115 0.269 0.372 0.535 0.907
2005 Delgado Carlos FLA NL 1B 144 616 521 81 157 41 3 33 115 72 121 0.301 0.399 0.582 0.981
2006 Delgado Carlos NYN NL 1B 123 538 451 82 122 25 2 35 98 67 104 0.271 0.370 0.568 0.938
2004 Eckstei David LAA AL SS 142 637 566 92 156 24 1 2 35 42 49 0.276 0.339 0.332 0.671
2005 Eckstei David STL NL SS 158 713 630 90 185 26 7 8 61 58 44 0.294 0.363 0.395 0.758
2006 Eckstei David STL NL SS 115 528 477 65 138 14 1 1 21 31 41 0.289 0.349 0.329 0.678
2005 Glaus Troy ARI NL 3B 149 634 538 78 139 29 1 37 97 84 145 0.258 0.363 0.522 0.885
2006 Glaus Troy TOR AL 3B 130 546 459 96 117 24 0 34 93 80 114 0.255 0.366 0.529 0.896
2005 Grudzie Mark STL NL 2B 137 563 528 64 155 30 3 8 59 26 81 0.294 0.334 0.407 0.741
2006 Grudzie Mark KC AL 2B 122 533 497 76 144 30 4 7 45 27 65 0.290 0.326 0.408 0.735
2004 Guillen Jose LAA AL LF 148 621 565 88 166 28 3 27 104 37 92 0.294 0.352 0.497 0.849
2005 Guillen Jose WAS NL RF 148 611 551 81 156 32 2 24 76 31 102 0.283 0.338 0.479 0.817
2004 Hatteb Scott OAK AL 1B 152 638 550 87 156 30 0 15 82 72 48 0.284 0.367 0.420 0.787
2005 Hatteb Scott OAK AL 1B 134 523 464 52 119 19 0 7 59 51 54 0.257 0.334 0.343 0.677
2006 Hatteb Scott CIN NL 1B 120 465 395 58 121 27 0 13 48 61 38 0.306 0.400 0.473 0.873
2004 Hillenb Shea ARI NL 1B 148 604 562 68 174 36 3 15 80 24 49 0.310 0.348 0.464 0.812
2005 Hillenb Shea TOR AL 1B 152 645 594 91 173 36 2 18 82 26 79 0.291 0.343 0.449 0.792
2004 Hudson Orlando TOR AL 2B 135 551 489 73 132 32 7 12 58 51 98 0.270 0.341 0.438 0.779
2006 Hudson Orlando ARI NL 2B 134 552 495 73 142 29 8 13 63 48 69 0.287 0.350 0.457 0.806
2004 Jones Jacque MIN AL RF 151 608 555 69 141 22 1 24 80 40 117 0.254 0.315 0.427 0.742
2005 Jones Jacque MIN AL RF 142 585 523 74 130 22 4 23 73 51 120 0.249 0.319 0.438 0.757
2006 Jones Jacque CHN NL RF 126 486 453 59 130 27 0 22 68 25 93 0.287 0.327 0.492 0.819
2004 Kendall Jason PIT NL C 147 658 574 86 183 32 0 3 51 60 41 0.319 0.399 0.390 0.789
2005 Kendall Jason OAK AL C 150 676 601 70 163 28 1 0 53 50 39 0.271 0.345 0.321 0.666
2006 Kendall Jason OAK AL C 119 512 452 62 134 21 0 1 38 42 43 0.297 0.364 0.350 0.714
2004 Lee Carlos CHA AL LF 153 658 591 103 180 37 0 31 99 54 86 0.305 0.366 0.525 0.891
2005 Lee Carlos MIL NL LF 162 688 618 85 164 41 0 32 114 57 87 0.265 0.324 0.487 0.811
2006 Lee Carlos MIL NL LF 102 435 388 60 111 18 0 28 81 38 39 0.286 0.347 0.549 0.896
2004 Loretta Mark SD NL 2B 154 707 620 108 208 47 2 16 76 58 45 0.336 0.391 0.495 0.886
2006 Loretta Mark BOS AL 2B 130 601 545 64 160 29 0 4 51 41 55 0.294 0.352 0.369 0.721
2004 Lowell Mike FLA NL 3B 158 671 598 87 175 44 1 27 85 64 77 0.293 0.365 0.505 0.870
2005 Lowell Mike FLA NL 3B 150 558 500 56 118 36 1 8 58 46 58 0.236 0.298 0.360 0.658
2006 Lowell Mike BOS AL 3B 129 534 486 66 141 39 1 17 66 39 49 0.290 0.345 0.479 0.824
2004 Overbay Lyle MIL NL 1B 159 668 579 83 174 53 1 16 87 81 128 0.301 0.385 0.478 0.863
2005 Overbay Lyle MIL NL 1B 158 622 537 80 148 34 1 19 72 78 98 0.276 0.367 0.449 0.816
2006 Overbay Lyle TOR AL 1B 132 546 497 67 154 41 1 19 82 45 86 0.310 0.368 0.511 0.879
2004 Patters Corey CHN NL CF 157 687 631 91 168 33 6 24 72 45 168 0.266 0.320 0.452 0.771
2006 Patters Corey BAL AL CF 121 448 417 66 115 17 2 13 47 20 83 0.276 0.314 0.420 0.733
2004 Payton Jay SD NL CF 143 511 458 57 119 17 4 8 55 43 56 0.260 0.326 0.367 0.693
2006 Payton Jay OAK AL LF 118 486 458 69 136 25 3 10 52 20 47 0.297 0.329 0.430 0.759
2004 Pierzyn A.J. SF NL C 131 510 471 45 128 28 2 11 77 19 27 0.272 0.319 0.410 0.729
2006 Pierzyn A.J. CHA AL C 120 471 440 58 130 19 0 13 52 19 59 0.296 0.336 0.427 0.763
2004 Podsedn Scott MIL NL CF 154 713 640 85 156 27 7 12 39 58 105 0.244 0.313 0.364 0.677
2005 Podsedn Scott CHA AL LF 129 568 507 80 147 28 1 0 25 47 75 0.290 0.351 0.349 0.700
2006 Podsedn Scott CHA AL LF 123 523 460 81 119 25 6 3 43 50 88 0.259 0.331 0.359 0.690
2004 Polanco Placido PHI NL 2B 126 555 503 74 150 21 0 17 55 27 39 0.298 0.345 0.441 0.786
2006 Polanco Placido DET AL 2B 103 465 435 54 128 17 1 3 44 15 25 0.294 0.325 0.359 0.684
2004 Renteri Edgar STL NL SS 149 642 586 84 168 37 0 10 72 39 78 0.287 0.327 0.401 0.728
2005 Renteri Edgar BOS AL SS 153 692 623 100 172 36 4 8 70 55 100 0.276 0.335 0.385 0.721
2006 Renteri Edgar ATL NL SS 126 576 510 89 152 32 2 12 56 55 78 0.298 0.369 0.439 0.808
2004 Rowand Aaron CHA AL CF 140 534 487 94 151 38 2 24 69 30 91 0.310 0.361 0.544 0.905
2005 Rowand Aaron CHA AL CF 157 640 578 77 156 30 5 13 69 32 116 0.270 0.329 0.407 0.736
2006 Rowand Aaron PHI NL CF 109 445 405 59 106 24 3 12 47 18 76 0.262 0.321 0.425 0.745
2004 Soriano Alfonso TEX AL 2B 145 658 608 77 170 32 4 28 91 33 121 0.280 0.324 0.484 0.807
2005 Soriano Alfonso TEX AL 2B 156 682 637 102 171 43 2 36 104 33 125 0.268 0.309 0.512 0.821
2006 Soriano Alfonso WAS NL LF 135 616 550 104 160 35 2 44 86 56 133 0.291 0.362 0.602 0.963
2004 Thome Jim PHI NL 1B 143 618 508 97 139 28 1 42 105 104 144 0.274 0.396 0.581 0.977
2006 Thome Jim CHA AL 1B 119 510 417 95 122 22 0 37 94 83 123 0.293 0.412 0.612 1.023
2004 Vizquel Omar CLE AL SS 148 651 567 82 165 28 3 7 59 57 62 0.291 0.353 0.388 0.741
2005 Vizquel Omar SF NL SS 152 651 568 66 154 28 4 3 45 56 58 0.271 0.341 0.350 0.691
2006 Vizquel Omar SF NL SS 131 573 502 79 155 18 10 4 50 50 47 0.309 0.374 0.408 0.782
2004 Winn Randy SEA AL CF 157 703 626 84 179 34 6 14 81 53 98 0.286 0.346 0.427 0.772
2006 Winn Randy SF NL RF 134 570 516 75 134 28 5 10 49 42 53 0.260 0.319 0.391 0.711


I'm not going to analyze them as a group since age, where they are in their career, injury, etc. would have to be figured in. OPS probably is the best stat on the list to compare (though I wasn't thinking and put it at the end). I'll do pitchers soon, probably.

[SirKodiak]

OPS+ is better for this, as it is league/park normalized. OPS+ for 2006 is only league normalized as I calculated them and only had league OPS numbers to work with. OPS+ = 100 is league average, below that is worse than league average, above it is better than league average.


Year Last First Tm Lg OPS+
2004 Beltre Adrian LAN NL 163
2005 Beltre Adrian SEA AL 90
2006 Beltre Adrian SEA AL 98

2004 Byrnes Eric OAK AL 109
2006 Byrnes Eric ARI NL 108

2004 Castill Luis FLA NL 93
2005 Castill Luis FLA NL 108
2006 Castill Luis MIN AL 92

2004 Conine Jeff FLA NL 103
2006 Conine Jeff BAL AL 93

2004 Delgado Carlos TOR AL 128
2005 Delgado Carlos FLA NL 161
2006 Delgado Carlos NYN NL 123

2004 Eckstei David LAA AL 77
2005 Eckstei David STL NL 98
2006 Eckstei David STL NL 89

2005 Glaus Troy ARI NL 125
2006 Glaus Troy TOR AL 115

2005 Grudzie Mark STL NL 92
2006 Grudzie Mark KC AL 94

2004 Guillen Jose LAA AL 119
2005 Guillen Jose WAS NL 118

2004 Hatteb Scott OAK AL 104
2005 Hatteb Scott OAK AL 79
2006 Hatteb Scott CIN NL 114

2004 Hillenb Shea ARI NL 106
2005 Hillenb Shea TOR AL 108

2004 Hudson Orlando TOR AL 97
2005 Hudson Orlando TOR AL 91
2006 Hudson Orlando ARI NL 106

2004 Jones Jacque MIN AL 90
2005 Jones Jacque MIN AL 99
2006 Jones Jacque CHN NL 107

2004 Kendall Jason PIT NL 110
2005 Kendall Jason OAK AL 77
2006 Kendall Jason OAK AL 92

2004 Lee Carlos CHA AL 123
2005 Lee Carlos MIL NL 110
2006 Lee Carlos MIL NL 117

2004 Loretta Mark SD NL 136
2006 Loretta Mark BOS AL 93

2004 Lowell Mike FLA NL 127
2005 Lowell Mike FLA NL 77
2006 Lowell Mike BOS AL 106

2004 Overbay Lyle MIL NL 127
2005 Overbay Lyle MIL NL 113
2006 Overbay Lyle TOR AL 113

2004 Patters Corey CHN NL 92
2006 Patters Corey BAL AL 94

2004 Payton Jay SD NL 86
2006 Payton Jay OAK AL 97

2004 Pierzyn A.J. SF NL 85
2005 Pierzyn A.J. CHA AL 90
2006 Pierzyn A.J. CHA AL 98

2004 Podsedn Scott MIL NL 79
2005 Podsedn Scott CHA AL 86
2006 Podsedn Scott CHA AL 89

2004 Polanco Placido PHI NL 101
2006 Polanco Placido DET AL 88

2004 Renteri Edgar STL NL 90
2005 Renteri Edgar BOS AL 91
2006 Renteri Edgar ATL NL 106

2004 Rowand Aaron CHA AL 126
2005 Rowand Aaron CHA AL 93
2006 Rowand Aaron PHI NL 98

2004 Soriano Alfonso TEX AL 98
2005 Soriano Alfonso TEX AL 110
2006 Soriano Alfonso WAS NL 126

2004 Thome Jim PHI NL 148
2006 Thome Jim CHA AL 131

2004 Vizquel Omar CLE AL 95
2005 Vizquel Omar SF NL 84
2006 Vizquel Omar SF NL 102

2004 Winn Randy SEA AL 107
2006 Winn Randy SF NL 93


So from the batter's viewpoint, I would say it doesn't matter if they play in the AL or NL (or just not enough sample to tell).

ERA+ is ERA normalized to league and park. ERA isn't great, but what I had to work with that is normalized. ERA+ = 100 is league average, above is better than league average, below is worse than league average.


Year Last First Tm Lg ERA+
2004 Arroyo Bronson BOS AL 117
2005 Arroyo Bronson BOS AL 98
2006 Arroyo Bronson CIN NL 129

2004 Batista Miguel TOR AL 97
2006 Batista Miguel ARI NL 109

2005 Beckett Josh FLA NL 118
2006 Beckett Josh BOS AL 91

2005 Benson Kris NYN NL 99
2006 Benson Kris BAL AL 93

2004 Clement Matt CHN NL 115
2005 Clement Matt BOS AL 97

2004 Hudson Tim OAK AL 126
2005 Hudson Tim ATL NL 120
2006 Hudson Tim ATL NL 89

2004 Johnson Randy ARI NL 171
2005 Johnson Randy NYA AL 115
2006 Johnson Randy NYA AL 91

2004 Lieber Jon NYA AL 104
2005 Lieber Jon PHI NL 105
2006 Lieber Jon PHI NL 95

2004 Lima Jose LAN NL 101
2005 Lima Jose KC AL 60

2004 Lowe Derek BOS AL 87
2005 Lowe Derek LAN NL 112
2006 Lowe Derek LAN NL 111

2004 Martine Pedro BOS AL 121
2005 Martine Pedro NYN NL 146

2004 Mulder Mark OAK AL 100
2005 Mulder Mark STL NL 116

2004 Redman Mark OAK AL 94
2005 Redman Mark PIT NL 86
2006 Redman Mark KC AL 84

2004 Vazquez Javier NYA AL 92
2005 Vazquez Javier ARI NL 99
2006 Vazquez Javier CHA AL 93

2004 Wells David SD NL 111
2005 Wells David BOS AL 99

2005 Young Chris TEX AL 106
2006 Young Chris SD NL 112


Maybe pitchers find NL easier, nothing definite though (sample size and taking other factors like age into account)

[FRENCHREDSOX]

Thank you the analysis Sk but I think the numbers are eskew as described below:


The thing is if NL batters/pitchers play approwimately 90% of their games in the Nl (Logical I know because they are in the NL) thus for pitchers their ERA/WHIP etc will be "over valued" because the league is weaker & 11% of the time they have an easy out - the same applies to the batters because the quality of pitching is "poorer";

IE NL Value 90/100 Batters overall - 90/100 Pitchers will obtain same results generally as AL (in BA,HR,ERA etc) who have a "superior" talent but also superiior competition


Its not necessarilly my viewpoint but when the power polls have 6 AL clubs in the top 7 (Mets obviously being the exception),& whenyou look at the major NL Freeagents-> AL "bomb" (Beltre,Clement,Burnett (But this one is still debatable due to his injuries),Weaver etc

I Just was wondering if the disparity shown thru inter league play was & is real

[ohms_law]

I don't really think that the NL or AL is particularly easier or harder to play in. I think that what's giving the NL the appearance of being the weaker league this year is parity.

Interleague play number's arent' very meaningfull to me. There simply aren't enough games played between the teams for the stats to really mean anything. That, combined with the games all being scheduled so early makes their importance minimal, so overall there value in determining anything is really reduced.

[SirKodiak]

Thank you the analysis Sk but I think the numbers are eskew as described below:


The thing is if NL batters/pitchers play approwimately 90% of their games in the Nl (Logical I know because they are in the NL) thus for pitchers their ERA/WHIP etc will be "over valued" because the league is weaker & 11% of the time they have an easy out - the same applies to the batters because the quality of pitching is "poorer";

IE NL Value 90/100 Batters overall - 90/100 Pitchers will obtain same results generally as AL (in BA,HR,ERA etc) who have a "superior" talent but also superiior competition


Its not necessarilly my viewpoint but when the power polls have 6 AL clubs in the top 7 (Mets obviously being the exception),& whenyou look at the major NL Freeagents-> AL "bomb" (Beltre,Clement,Burnett (But this one is still debatable due to his injuries),Weaver etc

I Just was wondering if the disparity shown thru inter league play was & is real

There is simply no way to prove it one way or the other statistically. There are not enough full time players switching leagues, and interleague play is not statistically significant.

[FRENCHREDSOX]

Oh by the way SK try http://people.csail.mit.edu/jrennie/baseball/ he seems to be doing current OPS+ & ERA+ (I wonder how he getting that info for New Busch though°)

Hope its helpful

[ohms_law]

yea but those are career averages, not this season:

Most of the OPS+ estimates are career averages. I made exceptions for those who have been consistently performing better (Crisp, Varitek, Ortiz) or worse (Williams) than their career averages.

[FRENCHREDSOX]

yea but those are career averages, not this season:

I was basing it on 06/07/06 for the Indians (I assumed he was doing it upto date) ....

Only trying to help :(

[ohms_law]

that's cool. At least you're looking.
I cant find any numbers for this season either. I really don't think anyone actually bothers to publish the league or stadium normalised stats until the season is over, is what's going on.

[FRENCHREDSOX]

Logical - also OPS+ for Coors must be horrendous to calculate now with "wet" (not bloody) balls

[SirKodiak]

Thanks for the effort, normalizing for league isn't that hard (I need to double check if I did it correctly though), but park is a whole different monster

[FRENCHREDSOX]

Especially as all clubs "change" yearly ball park specs eg Sox adding extra seats affects (Francona admitted it in August) the way the ball flies etc

[ohms_law]

Logical - also OPS+ for Coors must be horrendous to calculate now with "wet" (not bloody) balls

not sure why Coors would be particularly harder or easier than anywhere else. vastly different, sure; but harder to calculate?

Besides, they've been using the humidore at Coors for what, 3 years now? since 2004, at least.

[SirKodiak]

Tangotiger doesn't use data from games played at Coors or from Rockies' players in 'The Book', its been so bad. It is playing as a pitcher's park so far this year I believe, though

[ohms_law]

It is playing as a pitcher's park so far this year I believe, though

I heard that myself. ESPN, or something...
*shrug*

anyway, not using data from Coors at all seems a little extreme don't you think? I mean, I know that it's gotta become somewhat crazy, but totally ignoring it doesn't seem like a good answer.

[FRENCHREDSOX]

Definitely a ballpark (stats wise) has even lead to change in position player personnel (signing of "defensive" players at key positions ex Carroll at 2B & finally equalizing worth of "over rated players" ex disasters of Sullivan (CF) & Barmes (SS))

[FRENCHREDSOX]

I heard that myself. ESPN, or something...
*shrug*

anyway, not using data from Coors at all seems a little extreme don't you think? I mean, I know that it's gotta become somewhat crazy, but totally ignoring it doesn't seem like a good answer.

the data upto this year was way weird if you look at splits Home/road

Francis last year 3.9 ish ERA away from Coors, 7 ish at Coors
same thing the other way for Batters (one of the reasons Burnitz got 6mill from Pirates are "based" on his Coors inflated HRs) etc etc

[SirKodiak]

http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/how_has_the_new_use_of_the_humidor_affected_the_2006_rockies/

[ohms_law]

the data upto this year was way weird if you look at splits Home/road

Francis last year 3.9 ish ERA away from Coors, 7 ish at Coors
same thing the other way for Batters (one of the reasons Burnitz got 6mill from Pirates are "based" on his Coors inflated HRs) etc etc

Right, I don't disagree. I'm just saying, if you're able to use stats like *OPS+ and *ERA+ that those situations should be minimised.

anyway, gotta read that article that SirKodiak just posted.

[FRENCHREDSOX]

Ive been editing a lot & 1 thing which "annoys" me is when I edit minor league pitchers' GP/GS numbers; If a guy in the minor starts all his games AT whatever level he will be called up to MLB when a starter is injured (unless ofcourse there a real stud at AAA or in the pen ex Saarloos etc) .

This "problem" really applies to "weaker" staffs such as Astros,Pirates,Royals whose real 4 or 5 starters at MLB level have thrown out of the pen before getting set into the rotation (a real good example is Liriano who threw in 14 games before being introduced into the starting rotation & if you abide by real stats & introduced them into the edit he will throw out of the pen at the expense of a Gassner or Bonser)


So in order to correct this "mis function" I have to increase the number of GP relative to GS to obtain an ~ 80% GS factor in the minors which is unrealistic as most minor pitchers are either SP's or RP's & there are very few swing men at lower levels & at AAA it is usually ex-MLB castoffs/experienced players...

just a gripe but is there a better/realistic way of getting AA pitchers playing & starting the right number of games without affecting their sudden call up even if their OP is only ~60ish

[ohms_law]

http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/how_has_the_new_use_of_the_humidor_affected_the_2006_rockies/

great article there. food for thought.

[FRENCHREDSOX]

great article there. food for thought.

True enough though ... Coors a weird & wondeful world to itself:o

[SirKodiak]

Here is a three part series written by Mitchel Lichtman for the hardballtimes.com:
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/is-the-al-really-superior/
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/is-the-al-really-superior-part-2/
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/is-the-al-really-superior-part-3/

[FRENCHREDSOX]

So 57 - 43 ADVANTAGE for AL - NL quality wise seems that explains a net disparity in favour of the AL if I was a team like the White Sox or the Twins Id be begging to switch to the NL Central (even though that would spoil SK's Cardinals future pennants especially if the Twins switched...facing Santana-Liriano for the next 10 years will not be fun...)

[SirKodiak]

But, as he says, "analyses are somewhat problematic for various reasons". As long as that is true, I personally doubt that anything is "clear".

Nonetheless, I'll be perfectly happy if Santana, Liriano, Mauer, Morneau, and company stay out of the NL unless they happen to be wearing 'birds on the bat'

[FRENCHREDSOX]

But, as he says, "analyses are somewhat problematic for various reasons". As long as that is true, I personally doubt that anything is "clear".

Nonetheless, I'll be perfectly happy if Santana, Liriano, Mauer, Morneau, and company stay of the NL unless they happen to be wearing 'birds on the bat'

Its funny your "analysis" seems to be very "clear " on this point but I think there is more chance youll see (unfortunately) when free agency comes around in 2010 or so them in Pinstripes with a NY on the cap....:(

[natedawg219]

Guys I've been enjoying this discussion. There's some good anecdotal as well as scientific evidence being thrown out there but one thing that hasn't been discussed is what any of this has to do with BM. I'm not saying we can't have this discussion I guess I'm just confused about the intent of the original poster. FRS, are you saying that this should somehow be coded into the game?

[SirKodiak]

I assumed he asked because if it was shown to be true, it might make sense for roster makers to handicap the players' ratings based on which league the player is in.

[natedawg219]

But all roster makers have to work with are predicted stats. They can't directly influence ratings, right?

[SirKodiak]

predicted stats determine ratings. If a roster maker wanted to make a roster that was to reflect the possible difference between leagues, all they would have to do is change the perdicted stats for each player by the amount they thought the difference was, and the ratings would change accordingly.

[FRENCHREDSOX]

Exactly In the same way that we adjust AAA,AA stats by percentage points to allow for the differences & prdeictions of these players at mlb level;

The aim was & still is to determine if AL>NL stats if so then NL stats would be overated so say a NL batter hit .300/25HR HIS ADJUSTED rating would be possibly .290/23HR & the same for PITCHING.One of the selling points the Mets made when signing Pedro was that the NL was a less strenous league both physically & emotionally (due to the lack of the DH being replaced by THE pitcher) & it would add to the number of years to his "declining" pitching skills;

[ohms_law]

see though, there have been a ton of players in the Majors who have played in both leagues, and there's a 106 year statistical history of both leagues as well.

Year in and year out, the only thing that I've ever seen actually showing a real difference between the leagues is that there's more overall offense in the AL. All pitchers give up slightly more hits (and correspondingly have slightly higher ERA's), and team batting records are always slightly higher.

I've never seen anything anywhere that correlates individual performace differenses between players playing in the AL and those in the NL though. There are park effects, and differences caused by facing different batters/pitchers, things like that. But I've never seen anything to suggest that either league consistantly causes a players performance to change.

[FRENCHREDSOX]

Look AT Renteria 3 Last years BA wise great NL(cardinals) BA around or above .300 WITH good defence (<20 errors pa),lousy AL year with red sox (.276 BA with lowest HR total since 98,33 errors),back in the NL (Braves) Hitting so far (.299 WITH 12 HRS & only 11 errors)

But it was basically a Q. not a statement based on power rankings,last 2 WS sweeps,10 straight years of AL all star wins & this years Interleague....

[ohms_law]

Right, I understand that it was a question not a statement.

There are league and park adjustments that are avalable for use. It certainly couldn't hurt to replace actual raw statistics with park or league adjusted stats, where appropriate. I'm just not sure how much it will actually change is all.

[SirKodiak]

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/out-of-thin-air-mdash-the-new-coors/

[FRENCHREDSOX]

Interesting article which does show that there is "a change" in the air at Coors (that must be the worst pun since Michael Brown said he was qualified enough to head FEMA)

Post season will possibly show if my hypothesis is right (especially if the AL team sweeps for the 3 rd straight year)