Man takes hostages at high school

[williethebasset]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15061374/

Wouldn't have happened at my HS, we had an armed police officer there.

[FRENCHREDSOX]

Nor at mine because gun possession was & still is banned ! So no chance of that happening

[williethebasset]

Nor at mine because gun possession was & still is banned ! So no chance of that happening

So there are no guns? No one owns any? Not even criminals?

[FRENCHREDSOX]

So there are no guns? No one owns any? Not even criminals?

Most Criminals dont have guns ,only what I would consider as "professional" criminals use firearms (bank robbers/hit men etc) otherwise its more knives etc

In France/UK there is a very low usage of fire arm(even though Hunting is still a sport which even I pratice occasionally & "dopes" the figures )

even lower in the UK


The numbers are here even if they are a bit old
http://www.vpc.org/press/0203france.htm


No gangs as in the USA nor is legislation allowable for most private homes to have a "gun" so we dont get this

http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/murder.html
http://samoa.istat.it/Eventi/sicurezza/relazioni/LaFree_rel.pdf#search=%22French%20stats%20homicide%22

Canada's 1998 homicide rate was less than one-third that of the United States, which recorded 6.30 homicides for every 100,000 population, but it was higher than most European nations, such as Germany (1.18), England and Wales (1.30), Italy (1.54) and France (1.64)(http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Stats/murder.can.1998.html)


But the best example is here
Country Year Total Homicide/Firearm Homicide/% HouseholdsWithGuns

United States 1999 5.70 3.72 39.0
France 1994 1.12 0.68 22.6
England/Wales 1997 1.41 1.30 4.7


http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvinco.html

[robinhoodnik]

The problem here is that they're taking them from law abiding citizens.
Criminals aren't going to give up their guns. They'd have to go out and get jobs if they did that.

[williethebasset]

Most Criminals dont have guns ,only what I would consider as "professional" criminals use firearms (bank robbers/hit men etc) otherwise its more knives etc

In France/UK there is a very low usage of fire arm(even though Hunting is still a sport which even I pratice occasionally & "dopes" the figures )

even lower in the UK


The numbers are here even if they are a bit old
http://www.vpc.org/press/0203france.htm


No gangs as in the USA nor is legislation allowable for most private homes to have a "gun" so we dont get this

http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/murder.html
http://samoa.istat.it/Eventi/sicurezza/relazioni/LaFree_rel.pdf#search=%22French%20stats%20homicide%22

Canada's 1998 homicide rate was less than one-third that of the United States, which recorded 6.30 homicides for every 100,000 population, but it was higher than most European nations, such as Germany (1.18), England and Wales (1.30), Italy (1.54) and France (1.64)(http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Stats/murder.can.1998.html)


But the best example is here
Country Year Total Homicide/Firearm Homicide/% HouseholdsWithGuns

United States 1999 5.70 3.72 39.0
France 1994 1.12 0.68 22.6
England/Wales 1997 1.41 1.30 4.7


http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvinco.html

It doesn't matter because owning a gun is protection from tyranny and protection from harm to one's property and life. Owning an ability to defend oneself is a fundamental human right.

Washington DC has a complete ban on guns and the highest murder rate in the country. Maine has one of the highest rates of gun ownership and some of the lowest murder rates.

[SirKodiak]

Washington DC has a complete ban on guns and the highest murder rate in the country. Maine has one of the highest rates of gun ownership and some of the lowest murder rates.

I am a gun owner, and advocate gun ownership, but I just ran a correlation between murder/population and gun ownership %, by state, and the correlation was 0.00, in other words, the 2 rates are COMPLETELY independent of each other. I would guess that population density and poverty (and thus race, as poverty does correlate to race) do correlate, and in some way, temperature/humidity.

Sooooo, well, it looks like there is not a consistant positive or negative impact of guns on murders in the US.

I didn't check any other type of crime.


Murders Pop Murder/100000 Gun Ownership %
Alabama 379 4500752 8.42 51.7
Alaska 39 648818 6.01 57.8
Arizona 400 5580811 7.17 31.1
Arkansas 148 2725714 5.43 55.3
California 2206 35484453 6.22 21.3
Colorado 158 4550688 3.47 34.7
Connecticut 105 3483372 3.01 16.7
Delaware 23 817491 2.81 25.5
Georgia 598 8684715 6.89 40.3
Hawaii 32 1257608 2.54 8.7
Idaho 30 1366332 2.20 55.3
Illinois 986 12653544 7.79 20.2
Indiana 413 6195643 6.67 39.1
Iowa 50 2944062 1.70 42.8
Kansas 92 2723507 3.38 42.1
Kentucky 191 4117827 4.64 47.7
Louisiana 501 4496334 11.14 44.1
Maine 18 1305728 1.38 40.5
Maryland 446 5508909 8.10 21.3
Massachusetts 145 6433422 2.25 12.6
Michigan 672 10079985 6.67 38.4
Minnesota 119 5059375 2.35 41.7
Mississippi 282 2881281 9.79 55.3
Missouri 372 5704484 6.52 41.7
Montana 34 917621 3.71 57.7
Nebraska 43 1739291 2.47 38.6
Nevada 180 2241154 8.03 33.8
New Hampshire 17 1287687 1.32 30
New Jersey 336 8638396 3.89 12.3
New Mexico 99 1874614 5.28 34.8
New York 960 19190115 5.00 18
North Carolina 505 8407248 6.01 41.3
North Dakota 7 633837 1.10 50.7
Ohio 452 11435798 3.95 32.4
Oklahoma 185 3511532 5.27 42.9
Oregon 84 3559596 2.36 39.8
Pennsylvania 651 12365455 5.26 34.7
Rhode Island 39 1076164 3.62 12.8
South Carolina 255 4147152 6.15 42.3
South Dakota 7 764309 0.92 56.6
Tennessee 425 5841748 7.28 43.9
Texas 1332 22118509 6.02 35.9
Utah 67 2351467 2.85 43.9
Vermont 7 619107 1.13 42
Virginia 364 7386330 4.93 35.1
Washington 179 6131445 2.92 33.1
West Virginia 40 1810354 2.21 55.4
Wisconsin 192 5472299 3.51 44.4
Wyoming 9 501242 1.80 59.7

Murders from DOJ website for 2001
Gun Ownership numbers from a study from 2001
Population were 2003 numbers from somewhere

[williethebasset]

I was going to say that there is a corelation between minority populations and murder, but I didn't want to sound racist.

[HoustonGM]

I was going to say that there is a corelation between minority populations and murder, but I didn't want to sound racist.
Then you could've said "poverty" and "murder." More minorities doesn't always mean more murder. More poverty (in America, that usually means there ARE more minorities) means more murder. I mean, if you take the richest X amount of minorities, and put them in a city together, that doesn't mean they'll have a high murder rate just because theres a high correlation between minorities and murder. That correlation stems from a lot of minorites being poor, thus the real correlation is between poverty and murder, not minorities and murder.

[SirKodiak]

A version of the old "Ice Cream and Crime Story" that is useful to remember when looking at correlation:


Now, here’s the really important thing to be careful about when computing, reading about, or interpreting correlation coefficients. Imagine this. In a small Midwestern town, a phenomenon was discovered that defied any logic. The local police chief observes that as ice cream consumption increases, crime rates tend to increase as well. Quite simply, if you measured both, you would find the relationship was direct, meaning that as people eat more ice cream, the crime rate increases. And as you might expect, as they ate less ice cream, the crime rate went down.

The police chief was baffled until he recalled the Stats 101 class he took in college. His wondering how this could be true turned into an Aha! Moment, “Very easily,” he thought. The two variables must share something or have something in common with one another. Remember that it must be something that relates to both level of ice cream consumption and level of crime rate. Can you guess what that is?

The outside temperature is what they both have in common. When it gets warm outside, such as in the summertime, more crimes are committed (it stays light longer, people leave the windows open, etc.). And because it is warmer, people enjoy the ancient treat and art of eating ice cream. And conversely, during the long and dark winter months, less ice cream is consumed and
fewer crimes are committed as well.

[FRENCHREDSOX]

I am a gun owner, and advocate gun ownership,

That is a "free" choice & I understand your viewpoint but is it based on :
1)" because criminels have access to guns I need one to protect my family & myself "ideal ? or
2) "its a constitutional right so I use my rights fully" ?










but I just ran a correlation between murder/population and gun ownership %, by state, and the correlation was 0.00, in other words, the 2 rates are COMPLETELY independent of each other. I would guess that population density and poverty (and thus race, as poverty does correlate to race) do correlate, and in some way, temperature/humidity.

Sooooo, well, it looks like there is not a consistant positive or negative impact of guns on murders in the US.

I didn't check any other type of crime.


Murders Pop Murder/100000 Gun Ownership %
Alabama 379 4500752 8.42 51.7
Alaska 39 648818 6.01 57.8
Arizona 400 5580811 7.17 31.1
Arkansas 148 2725714 5.43 55.3
California 2206 35484453 6.22 21.3
Colorado 158 4550688 3.47 34.7
Connecticut 105 3483372 3.01 16.7
Delaware 23 817491 2.81 25.5
Georgia 598 8684715 6.89 40.3
Hawaii 32 1257608 2.54 8.7
Idaho 30 1366332 2.20 55.3
Illinois 986 12653544 7.79 20.2
Indiana 413 6195643 6.67 39.1
Iowa 50 2944062 1.70 42.8
Kansas 92 2723507 3.38 42.1
Kentucky 191 4117827 4.64 47.7
Louisiana 501 4496334 11.14 44.1
Maine 18 1305728 1.38 40.5
Maryland 446 5508909 8.10 21.3
Massachusetts 145 6433422 2.25 12.6
Michigan 672 10079985 6.67 38.4
Minnesota 119 5059375 2.35 41.7
Mississippi 282 2881281 9.79 55.3
Missouri 372 5704484 6.52 41.7
Montana 34 917621 3.71 57.7
Nebraska 43 1739291 2.47 38.6
Nevada 180 2241154 8.03 33.8
New Hampshire 17 1287687 1.32 30
New Jersey 336 8638396 3.89 12.3
New Mexico 99 1874614 5.28 34.8
New York 960 19190115 5.00 18
North Carolina 505 8407248 6.01 41.3
North Dakota 7 633837 1.10 50.7
Ohio 452 11435798 3.95 32.4
Oklahoma 185 3511532 5.27 42.9
Oregon 84 3559596 2.36 39.8
Pennsylvania 651 12365455 5.26 34.7
Rhode Island 39 1076164 3.62 12.8
South Carolina 255 4147152 6.15 42.3
South Dakota 7 764309 0.92 56.6
Tennessee 425 5841748 7.28 43.9
Texas 1332 22118509 6.02 35.9
Utah 67 2351467 2.85 43.9
Vermont 7 619107 1.13 42
Virginia 364 7386330 4.93 35.1
Washington 179 6131445 2.92 33.1
West Virginia 40 1810354 2.21 55.4
Wisconsin 192 5472299 3.51 44.4
Wyoming 9 501242 1.80 59.7

Murders from DOJ website for 2001
Gun Ownership numbers from a study from 2001
Population were 2003 numbers from somewhere

The thing is not real gun ownership that is the problem (in my eyes anyway) but ease of access to guns - most criminel homicides I assume are not done with "legal" weapons but "illegal" weapons.Unlike most western countries the US a relative "free market" to buying & registration of firearms & the ease/difficulty varies from state to state.This ease to access & the fact that many US homes have 'firearms' does change "criminels" perspectives of whether or not they should defend themselves.


Its a snowball effect if A has a gun the criminel B will carry one/use one to have an advantage over A & other criminels,which leads to Mr C deciding to buy a gun because B & his friends have one & so on.


This is just an opinion of a fact observed over time - an alternate way of seeing this is why gun homicide so LOW in the UK (which has the closest common features to the US) or Cnanda ?

[SirKodiak]

That is a "free" choice & I understand your viewpoint but is it based on :
1)" because criminels have access to guns I need one to protect my family & myself "ideal ? or
2) "its a constitutional right so I use my rights fully" ?


#1 is not an 'ideal' to me, I have had to bring firearms to bear to protect my family on 2 occasions.

#2 is part of it, as the right is guaranteed in my state's constitution, and I do believe that it is guaranteed in the US Constitution as a manner by which the citizenry can protect themselves from corrupt and tyrranical government (based on statements about arms by various framers of the Constitution). But I am not one to use my rights just because they are my rights. I on occassion due not vote simply because I am too disgusted with the candidates. I don't take part in actions that are blatantly bothersome to others and say it is 'freedom of speech'. I hate lawyers, but under the right circumstances, I would demand my right to have one.

#3 I like guns. I like taking them apart and putting them back together. I like taking them out and fine tuning them on the practice range. I like hitting a business card at 500 yards by controlling my breathing, relaxing, and proper mechanics. Or fast drawing and double tapping, putting a bullet in the heart and head of the target. I'd probably like hunting, but for various reasons have not done it except to rid an area of destructive animals after baiting/live trapping by professionals didn't work. (Though I wonder about the State's professionals when they plant live traps under cherry trees using honey as bait)

#4 I like the intimidation value of guns. It means that when I do have to bring them to bear (for protection of life), I probably won't have to live with knowing I took a life (regardless of reason), because those I am in conflict with will most likely back down. Should I ever have to use it, I have already made conscious decision to do it after all other possible (given the circumstances) avenues of resolution have been attempted. Once I talked to 6 gang members for 30 minutes and finally got them to go their own way eventhough they had 6 guns showing and were intent on causing harm. Another time, 2 came into the yard bearing 9mm handguns, a simple chambering of a 12 gauge sent them on their merry way. I've taken knives away from people who were fighting a few times, not such a big deal, but had they had guns, not much I could have done. I got a 15 year old girl out of a bad situation with a 40 something pervert (who worked for the phone company and had bugged her room so that he could listen to (and record) her and her boyfriend (he was 17) have sex, and her phone calls from a remote site) she had been staying with (I had talked to the police, but since the girl was technically a runaway, and her mom didn't want her, they would be forced to put her in foster care, which is why she ended up living at this guy's place in the first place). The fellow reached for his gun which I knew he had when the discussion got heated between him and her, and I merely had to open my coat to show him I was also carrying to neutralize the situation. He was quiet and respectful after that, and I was able to get her and her most important belongings out safely. They have always made bad situations better for me. They are not for everyone, and I do not advocate everyone having one.

[robinhoodnik]

Its a snowball effect if A has a gun the criminel B will carry one/use one to have an advantage over A & other criminels,which leads to Mr C deciding to buy a gun because B & his friends have one & so on.

Criminals here use them regardless of advantage. They'll also kill for the thrill more often than killing in the heat of a crime. We don't need gun control so much as we need to be easier on those who use guns in defense. It's absurd to me that those who have used them in defense during a crime are often brouhjt to trial for it and are also convicted. Bernard Goetz is a prime example. He shot muggers in the act of the crime on a Nrw York subway and was imprisoned for it. Though at least one of them was in flight at the time he stopped a slug, he got what he deserved. These were not innocent youths out raising hel1 as the press often portrays them, they were predatory criminals who took a calculated risk and lost.
Hooray for Goetz by the way.

[FRENCHREDSOX]

Im not condoning or am I against the right to protect ones family - I am stating that maybe the relative ease to obtain a fire arm is wrong.

When you are old enough to drive you have to pass a test to do so legally,or you have to have a certain age to drink.

I feel,maybe unjustifiably,that a fire arm should be categorized in the same vein & certainly with more respect.I think that fire arms should be the most difficult "test" to pass to limit the numbers in circulation & avoid "errors"


But this is my opinion -

[williethebasset]

Im not condoning or am I against the right to protect ones family - I am stating that maybe the relative ease to obtain a fire arm is wrong.

When you are old enough to drive you have to pass a test to do so legally,or you have to have a certain age to drink.

I feel,maybe unjustifiably,that a fire arm should be categorized in the same vein & certainly with more respect.I think that fire arms should be the most difficult "test" to pass to limit the numbers in circulation & avoid "errors"


But this is my opinion -

Owning a gun and an ability to defend oneself is a fundamental human right, just like the freedom of speech.

[robinhoodnik]

I think that if our "Gangsta's" were treated like the depression era gangsters were eventually treated then we'd have far fewer problems with these punk b@stards shooting up innocent people in their "turf wars". Eventually people got sick of their behavior and allowed law enforcement officers to just shoot them down in the streets. We need some of that now to thin out the herd of Gangsta's and Thugs. Start with the red and blue bandana wearing clowns (Bloods and Crips) and work your way down the line. Basically, let cops start shooting back, and with superior firepower, when it's an issue of a known gang banger. F 'em.

[williethebasset]

Then you could've said "poverty" and "murder." More minorities doesn't always mean more murder. More poverty (in America, that usually means there ARE more minorities) means more murder. I mean, if you take the richest X amount of minorities, and put them in a city together, that doesn't mean they'll have a high murder rate just because theres a high correlation between minorities and murder. That correlation stems from a lot of minorites being poor, thus the real correlation is between poverty and murder, not minorities and murder.

http://www.bsos.umd.edu/socy/vanneman/socy441/trends/bpovrace.jpg

[FRENCHREDSOX]

Owning a gunis a fundamental human right
No it isnt - guns have been around what 500 odd years


So are you say that Bin Laden & his boys should have the fundamental right to own guns ? Thats scarey to me..


and an ability to defend oneself is a fundamental human right,

Yes




just like the freedom of speech.

Yes it is now & even when that speech disagrees with what the government/moral majority says -

[HoustonGM]

Okay Willie. Go on believing that being black means youre more likely to commit a crime.

[FRENCHREDSOX]

I think that if our "Gangsta's" were treated like the depression era gangsters were eventually treated then we'd have far fewer problems with these punk b@stards shooting up innocent people in their "turf wars". Eventually people got sick of their behavior and allowed law enforcement officers to just shoot them down in the streets. We need some of that now to thin out the herd of Gangsta's and Thugs. Start with the red and blue bandana wearing clowns (Bloods and Crips) and work your way down the line. Basically, let cops start shooting back, and with superior firepower, when it's an issue of a known gang banger. F 'em.

Start with the lawyers - once they stop suing everyone under the SUN then start on the gangs/politicians & other "blood" suckers

[robinhoodnik]

Good idea. We let the gangsta's rob and murder the lawyers, thus giving us the moral responsibility to gun down the gangsta's. That also gets rid of most of our politicians too since they're lawyers in many cases. You're brilliant! :D ;)

[FRENCHREDSOX]

WELL looking at my trades in BMO I would say I was that brilliant but I find that its always the same people who profit from the misfortunes of others & "honest" cops/people/workers are scared to do things because of this "suing" madness

Make the lawyers pay or send them to the North Pole to check on the "Global Warming";) :D

[robinhoodnik]

They'd make excellent Mars explorers too wouldn't they?

[FRENCHREDSOX]

They'd make excellent Mars explorers too wouldn't they?

One way ticket .... right ?

[robinhoodnik]

But of course! :)

[williethebasset]

Okay Willie. Go on believing that being black means youre more likely to commit a crime.

It does. You were the one that said minorities are more likely to be in poverty and being in poverty means one is more likely to be a criminal.

[williethebasset]

No it isnt - guns have been around what 500 odd years


So are you say that Bin Laden & his boys should have the fundamental right to own guns ? Thats scarey to me..



That's irrelvent. Voting has been considered a right (in the USA)for less than 50.

If they were not criminals I would have no problem with them owning guns.

[FRENCHREDSOX]

If they were not criminals I would have no problem with them owning guns.

Thats a paradox;)

[HoustonGM]

It does. You were the one that said minorities are more likely to be in poverty and being in poverty means one is more likely to be a criminal.
Ok, well, it's not some inherent thing of the race. It's how society is.

I mean, take two people. They're exactly the same in every way, except one's black and one is white. The black person isn't more likely to become a criminal than the white person.

[robinhoodnik]

No, but those in Compton are more likely than those in Beverly Hills to become criminals. Willie you can't catch a break here can you?

[FRENCHREDSOX]

Ok, well, it's not some inherent thing of the race. It's how society is.

I mean, take two people. They're exactly the same in every way, except one's black and one is white. The black person isn't more likely to become a criminal than the white person.

No more likely - just more likely to be pursued & convicted....:(

[HoustonGM]

No, but those in Compton are more likely than those in Beverly Hills to become criminals. Willie you can't catch a break here can you?
The fact of the matter is that there is nothing inherent in being black that makes you more likely to become a criminal.

[robinhoodnik]

Well, duh.:)

[robinhoodnik]

You put five whites, five blacks, and five hispanics into Compton and there will likely be same results. Given of course that they'd all had similar upbringings.

[FRENCHREDSOX]

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.csc-scc.gc.ca/text/rsrch/reports/r77/r77e_f.shtml&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dcriminels%2B%2526%2Bgenetics%26start%3D10%26hl%3Den%26hs%3DsLE%26lr %3D%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:fr:official%26sa%3DN

[williethebasset]

The fact of the matter is that there is nothing inherent in being black that makes you more likely to become a criminal.

I know. I wasn't arguing that.

[williethebasset]

Ok, well, it's not some inherent thing of the race. It's how society is.

I mean, take two people. They're exactly the same in every way, except one's black and one is white. The black person isn't more likely to become a criminal than the white person.

Statistically, the black person is more likely to be poor, thus more likely to be a criminal.

[kingmob]

willie has never met a black person before.....go try talking to the brothas....they are as american as you....they speak the same language, watch the same tv shows, root for the same sports teams, live in the same communities, and on and on.....black folks are as american as anyone else......if the cops were to prosecute the war on drugs in white neighborhoods with the same gusto they do in the hood .....then there wouldnt be so many brothas in the gulag

[HoustonGM]

Statistically, the black person is more likely to be poor, thus more likely to be a criminal.
I said "exactly the same in every way"

[williethebasset]

I said "exactly the same in every way"

Then the chances of him being a criminal are the same as the white.

[williethebasset]

willie has never met a black person before

if the cops were to prosecute the war on drugs in white neighborhoods with the same gusto they do in the hood .....then there wouldnt be so many brothas in the gulag

Yes I have.

If the cops prosecuted people for the war on drugs in my 100% white neighborhood nothing would happen. They're all executive, high level management types. not down and out homeless crack addicts.

[kingmob]

Yes I have.

If the cops prosecuted people for the war on drugs in my 100% white neighborhood nothing would happen. They're all executive, high level management types. not down and out homeless crack addicts.

if you werent so nieve this would be funny.......so white upper middle class types dont do drugs or send sexually offensive emails to teenagers? ....is that what your saying?....hah ....they do the same **** as poor black folks....the only difference is that they get away with it

[HoustonGM]

Then the chances of him being a criminal are the same as the white.
Exactly.

[FRENCHREDSOX]

Yes I have.

If the cops prosecuted people in my 100% white neighborhood nothing would happen. They're all executive, high level management types.

Delicious....just the PERFECT market for Cocaine & Meth users which I assume they do use.... just cos you DONT see the dealer dont mean he aint around:D

[williethebasset]

if you werent so nieve this would be funny.......so white upper middle class types dont do drugs or send sexually offensive emails to teenagers? ....is that what your saying?....hah ....they do the same **** as poor black folks....the only difference is that they get away with it

I'm not saying they are perfect, but they are better than in the ghetto.

[FRENCHREDSOX]

I'm not saying they are perfect, but they are better than in the ghetto.

Please elaborate because this I REALLY DONT UNDERSTAND ....

[robinhoodnik]

Yes I have.

If the cops prosecuted people for the war on drugs in my 100% white neighborhood nothing would happen. They're all executive, high level management types. not down and out homeless crack addicts.

I'm certain that no cocaine has ever crossed their threshold either. Grow up some Willie.:rolleyes:

[robinhoodnik]

I'm not saying they are perfect, but they are better than in the ghetto.

Because they can pay their way out of prison? Man, I thought you'd wised up some Willie. You're backsliding back into an isolated little happy place.

[kingmob]

I'm not saying they are perfect, but they are better than in the ghetto.

how tha fvck would u know? ....u ever been there?

[FRENCHREDSOX]

You're backsliding back into an isolated little happy place.

That's what doing coco & "prozac" does -always said mixing n matching can lead you on a "rollercoast" of incoherence


*joke as Nancy uesd to say 'just say "No" but nod up & down at the same time' *

[InRepair]

A great book for all to read that I'd say is largely relevant to this discussion is The Corner, by David Simon. He (a white reporter for the B-More Sun) spends a year in one of Baltimore's more...uh...third-worldish neighborhoods...more or less living with a congeries of heroin addicts and slingers. Yeah, and they're all black, too, although they occasionally sell to po' white folk who make special trips to that part of town just to buy and are just as much hooked on the sh1t. I know we weren't discussing this in particular, but, ****, once you get locked into that lifestyle--most likely because there weren't very many alternatives--it's near impossible to escape. For the average dope dealer, it's as much a hand-to-mouth existence as a Quik-E-Mart cashier might lead. I suspect a lot of folks become that kind of person not because they want to, but because they feel they’ve no other choice.

[FRENCHREDSOX]

For the average dope dealer, it's as much a hand-to-mouth existence as a Quik-E-Mart cashier might lead. I suspect a lot of folks become that kind of person not because they want to, but because they feel they’ve no other choice.

The word you are looking for is $$$ - its the ONLY real paying job "opportunity" open to them

[InRepair]

Well, that's pretty much my point. Simon was also the author of a book called Homicide: a Year on the Killing Streets, for which he spent a year "embedded" within Baltimore's unit of murder investigators. This then spawned The Best Television Drama of All Time That Nobody's Ever Heard Of Somehow Except for Me and, Like, a Thousand Other People, Maybe--"Homicide: Life on the Street." (1993-1999; r.i.p.) More than once, the detectives would roll up on someone they needed to speak to regarding a murder, so they'd let slide the fact that the dude was obviously slinging dope five seconds ago. Not that the seller or tout or whatever would even try to hide it, though; when pressed, he'd usually say something like, "****, yeah, I deal! With unemployment so high right now that the [I]white folks up in [whatever upper-middle-class suburban neighborhood] are starting to sweat it, what kind of chance do you think someone like me has?" Of course, this was, like, back in the mid-1990s.

[kingmob]

A great book for all to read that I'd say is largely relevant to this discussion is The Corner, by David Simon. He (a white reporter for the B-More Sun) spends a year in one of Baltimore's more...uh...third-worldish neighborhoods...more or less living with a congeries of heroin addicts and slingers. Yeah, and they're all black, too, although they occasionally sell to po' white folk who make special trips to that part of town just to buy and are just as much hooked on the sh1t. I know we weren't discussing this in particular, but, ****, once you get locked into that lifestyle--most likely because there weren't very many alternatives--it's near impossible to escape. For the average dope dealer, it's as much a hand-to-mouth existence as a Quik-E-Mart cashier might lead. I suspect a lot of folks become that kind of person not because they want to, but because they feel they’ve no other choice.


...i dont see no poppies growing in the hood......hmmmm i hear they have bumper crops in herion-stan......the cia along with there mi-6 buddies are the worlds biggest drug dealers

[kingmob]

a good show on right now is "the wire" on hbo.....great show.....and its set in B-more

[InRepair]

a good show on right now is "the wire" on hbo.....great show.....and its set in B-more

And that's also produced, etc. by...once again...David Simon. This season focuses on Charm City's terrible school system, from what I've read.

[meacon99]

Statistically, the black person is more likely to be poor, thus more likely to be a criminal.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it all white men who have been raping and shooting up these schools in the last few months? Color has nothing to do with crime. There are just as many sick white people as black people. Those business executives in your neighborhood very well could be "shootin' up" in their home, I doubt you're that on top of it.

[FRENCHREDSOX]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it all white men who have been raping and shooting up these schools in the last few months? Color has nothing to do with crime. There are just as many sick white people as black people. Those business executives in your neighborhood very well could be "shootin' up" in their home, I doubt you're that on top of it.

Dont worry Willie WHEN he is President is going clean up the country (China's death penalty record will tumble in a few monyh's of his election) .....shame that a Civil/Race revolution will bring down his tenure when things were "going so well"

[InRepair]

Statistically, white people are more likely to commit mass-murder-type crimes (such as these school shootings), as well as be serial killers and/or child molestors. But none of these type offenses have anything to do with the acquisition of money.

[HoustonGM]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it all white men who have been raping and shooting up these schools in the last few months? Color has nothing to do with crime. There are just as many sick white people as black people. Those business executives in your neighborhood very well could be "shootin' up" in their home, I doubt you're that on top of it.
Poverty does have a connection to crime, and statistically, minorities are more likely to be poor, so he's simply saying that because of that, they're more likely to be criminal

[meacon99]

Poverty does have a connection to crime, and statistically, minorities are more likely to be poor, so he's simply saying that because of that, they're more likely to be criminal

Oh I understand what he is saying. I'm simply stating that you can't let the "higher up" people in society fool you. Just because they have business executive jobs doesn't mean they aren't beating their wives or smoking crack. I have lived in some bad parts of New York and currently living in West Philadelphia. I know several people that can be categorized as "poor" and they are also black. But they're some of the nicest, most down to Earth people I've ever met. I knew a guy from my hometown that was well respected in the church and his work place who was arrested for child molestation. He is a white man. Statistics do show things that have happened but they aren't everything. A-Rod has choked in the playoffs in the past but doesn't necessarily mean he always will (hopefully). Thats all. I grew up in a racist town and being a white guy, I always had to defend the fact that black people aren't the only criminals in the world. But as for them being criminals based on their low income, I do agree. Odds are, someone wouldn't hold up a gas station if they were making enough to feed their family.

[williethebasset]

how tha fvck would u know? ....u ever been there?

Yes.

[williethebasset]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it all white men who have been raping and shooting up these schools in the last few months? Color has nothing to do with crime. There are just as many sick white people as black people. Those business executives in your neighborhood very well could be "shootin' up" in their home, I doubt you're that on top of it.

Actually, there are more sick whites because whites are a majority of the population. From what I understand, blacks make up a majority of the rapists and murders. Again, that has a lot to do with poverty.

[FRENCHREDSOX]

From what I understand, blacks make up a majority of the rapists and murders

Sorry to disagree but 80% of total serial murderers are WHITE males - even the standard FBI database for serial muderers' is "white caucasian male,30 to 40,etc".


Secondly blacks are more likely to be induced into crime since the 1960's /'70's
due to the decline of the "mafia" & the rise of counter-culture groups i.e. Gangs

If you take out gang - related violence (of any form) the % drop enourmously.


For info get FBI numbers



Thirdly gentically we are all "blacks" as they were the "first" to develop so if they are more violent so should the whites


But overall it is for 2 main reasons that violent crimes are commited
money & revenge

[williethebasset]

Sorry to disagree but 80% of total serial murderers are WHITE males - even the standard FBI database for serial muderers' is "white caucasian male,30 to 40,etc".


Secondly blacks are more likely to be induced into crime since the 1960's /'70's
due to the decline of the "mafia" & the rise of counter-culture groups i.e. Gangs

If you take out gang - related violence (of any form) the % drop enourmously.


For info get FBI numbers



Thirdly gentically we are all "blacks" as they were the "first" to develop so if they are more violent so should the whites



I'm not talking about serial murderers, I'm talking about the majority of murderers, which are black. It is a small majority, but when their extremely small numbers are taken into account, they are 7 times more likely to kill than whitey.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm

Taking out gang related violence is irrelevent, a murder is a murder.

I'm not arguing that there are hardwired genetic differences, but there are genetic differences [albiet small] between the races.

[FRENCHREDSOX]

Evening WtB


Murder is murder I agree but numbers do affect stats look at the WW2 numbers do you include or not "Stalag deaths" or "concetration camp" figures,civilians etc

Thus the numbers you are using are only relevant when put into context - no "race" kills more or less if that were the case just by extrapolation of those numbers they WOULD dominate the planet.Basic laws of evolution

[InRepair]

Didn't I just say a few posts back that serial killers are almost always white? Serial killers are also relatively rare. If, in fact, African-Americans are responsible for most homicides in America, then, yes, it's almost certainly due to poverty. Here's something interesting to think on: prior to appx. the late 1800s, there was no such thing as serial murder. Almost all killings were of the sort where the murderer did so out of a sort of desperation, in order to obtain somebody else's property. To put it bluntly, everyone was too busy trying not to starve to death and complete their 18-hour shifts to have time to dust off prostitutes. Only with the acquisition of some modicum of leisure time, thanks in part to industrialization, were some deranged individuals able to indulge their perversions. That's why Jack the Ripper was such a big deal in the 1880s. He "only" killed (probably) five people, but there was no seeming motive, so it was as though a monster was roaming the streets. Prior to this, the only individuals who were allowed the opportunity to kill on whim or in accordance with the voices in their heads--who didn't "earn" anything tangible by their crimes--were those in power who had little or nothing else to keep them occupied: Caligula, Elizabeth Bathory, Vlad the Impaler, etc. In other words, the devil does find work for idle hands.

[HoustonGM]

I'm not arguing that there are hardwired genetic differences, but there are genetic differences [albiet small] between the races.
Obviously, but they don't include "more inclined to murder"

[williethebasset]

Evening WtB

Thus the numbers you are using are only relevant when put into context - no "race" kills more or less if that were the case just by extrapolation of those numbers they WOULD dominate the planet.Basic laws of evolution

Not unless another had superior cognative ability that allowed their technology to dominate. This is what happened in a similar circumstance to humans and neanderthals.

[InRepair]

Yes, well, Neanderthals and modern humans were/are members of different species. Africans and Anglos are members of the same species, so I'm not sure if the concept of evolutionary fitness can really apply here.

[FRENCHREDSOX]

Yes, well, Neanderthals and modern humans were/are members of different species. Africans and Anglos are members of the same species, so I'm not sure if the concept of evolutionary fitness can really apply here.

But the Anglos developed from the African "base" strain of Homo Sapius Sapius - where as Neanderthatls as you point out a different genetic "breed"

When WtB argues whites & blacks are different it is NOT true they are the same gentically as us - that's why mixed mariages do work & produce "normal" children.

That was & is the point I was trying to make

[williethebasset]

What I'm saying is that if a race was prone to violence the violent wouldn't be able to dominate the planet because of other factors involved. For example, europeans are not prone to commiting violence, but europe and the USA for the most part are dominant players due to technological change, but not so much anymore.

Although it can be argued that europeans and their descendents are prone to violence, as it was the competition between them that lead to an "arms" race and technological improvements.