Soriano signs with Cubs

[pacers721]

The Cubs signed Soriano to an 8yr $136 million deal. (LINK (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/cs-061119cubssoriano,1,2167642.story?coll=chi-news-hed)) That's right, $17 mil a year for 8 years, does this bother anyone else? Soriano is a good player, but he's far from great. In fact, before this year, few people mentioned him as mvp material. Soriano will be 31 when this season starts, so that means we're stuck with his contract until he's 38. I have no doubt this will go down as one of the worst free agent signings in the history of the game.

[michaelg123789]

Bad BAD move for the Cubbies.

[michaelg123789]

I can see them having to pay a team to take him off their hands in 2 or 3 years. Sort of like the Rangers are doing now with A-Rod.

[disposablehero]

the $17 million per doesnt bother me, but the 8 years does.

[FRENCHREDSOX]

new economic world

[ohms_law]

Not really. Times change, things move forward.
I do beleave that the Cubs have made a mistake here. However, it is a light FA season, and the Cubs definately want to win in 2007 (can anyone argue that after this?). I think that Soriano took advantage of both facts, in order to get a deal like this. This isn't Mogul that we're talking about here folkes, this is reality. Who else could the Cubs have hired right now? You can't assume that they could make a trade (anything we could think of, the team that they would be trading would think of as well).

I do feel that this is going to be a bad deal for the Cubs long term. 4-5 years down the road, the Cubs' Management is going to be wishing that they had that extra couple million dollars to use to (re)sign someone. However, I defy anyone to make a case that Soriano should not be on the Cubs at any price. He will help the team this upcoming season, in my opinion.

[HoustonGM]

I agree with disposablehero. The money isn't the issue. It's the length of the deal. If Soriano was 25-27, it'd be a different story.

Oh, and he IS a great player. This year WAS great. 40 homers, 40 steals, he increased his walk rate. He's got a great arm and speed in the outfield. He's a great player, and he'll help the Cubs greatly in 2007, but the deal will likely be a bad one by the time the 8 years is up.

[Tigers 94]

Yeah, he is a great player, but the length of the deal is the problem in my opinion.

[disposablehero]

a few things to note:

1) yea, he doubled his walk rate this year, but i dont expect that to continue. i expect him to revert back to being a .325-.335 OBP guy. obviously, thats not where his value is, but still.

2) he will never again tally 20+ assists in the OF. that was more a product of coaches and players taking too many chances because of the unknown. i see him having Vlady sindrome. no runners willing, so low assists (thats not a bad thing).

3) 45+ HR in cavernous RFK is easily 50+ HR in Wrigley. i fully expect to see the first 50-50-50 player in history sometime in the next 1-4 years.

4) lifetime .287 EQA

[midwestjw]

I think the Cubs are taking pointers from Houston and St. Louis by signing big players for long contracts and the it not panning out. It was a fluke that STL won the World series cuz of theri win record.

Brewers manager Ned Yost sais that between Soriano, Derrick Lee and another guy that they are screwed. Same goes for Pittsburg and Cincy. with those powerhouse of CHi Cubs STL and Houston[whicj may or may not be that way next season] it could prove to be the curse breaker the Cubs have been yearning for for 90 years..

oh yeah $136 million over 8 years. It's a little much. Soriano better become best buds with Jeter, ARod, Nomar, and David Wright to hone his skills as a super-superstar.

[rollsroyce11991]

By 38 he will be far from a superstar but still be paid like a hall of famer. Bad move....

[Hash1]

I wasn't happy with the signing at all. Sure i love that we landed him, but the contract length is garbage

[beerchaser]

It's a seller's market this year, obviously. The Dodgers just gave Juan Pierre a 5 year, $45 million deal. Nothing against Juan Pierre, but I'm not crazy about giving him a 5 year deal, especially when we need middle of the order guys. At least it's not 8 years though.

[HoustonGM]

I'm not crazyabout paying a bad leadoff hitter 9 millon a year either.

[CarlosaMarlin]

Potential to steal 70 bases Pierre does, but true about him being pretty much useless other than that.

[HoustonGM]

Potential to steal 70 bases Pierre does, but true about him being pretty much useless other than that.
Stolen bases are not worth 9 million bucks a year, and just because a player can steal 70 bases in a year doesn't make him a good leadoff hitter by any means.

[CarlosaMarlin]

I never claimed they were worth 9 million a year, or that stealing bases made him a good leadoff hitter.

[HoustonGM]

Well, I'm just pointing that out. :)

[CarlosaMarlin]

I agree 9 million is way too much. Don't know what teams really see in him other than the base stealing of course, like you said his hitting is lousy, and his play in the field isn't really spectacular.

[beerchaser]

I think we're going to see a lot of "he's not worth that" contracts this offseason.

[HoustonGM]

They see that he's a career .300 hitter. They see ZOMG 200 hits. They fail to see that those 200 hits come in 700 at bats. They fail to see that those 200 hits resulted in a .292 average. They fail to see that he doesn't really have a good walk rate. His career .350 OBP is largely due to his batting average. He's only been at like .328 the last two years. He's not even that amazing of a base stealer. Yes, he steals a lot, but he's successful roughly 75% of the time, which barely makes the cut as to when a base stealer actually HELPS your team rather than hurts it.

[dolfanar]

I'm not arguing that he's worth the contract BUT, how many *true* leadoff hitters are there nowadays? I mean aside from Rickey Henderson and Tim Rainees, how many .400OBP, 60+ steal guy's have there been in Baseball? Not bloody many. Even Lou Brockd finished with a .343 OBP, and stole at roughly at a 75% clip.

I think that it's sad how UNDERVALUED base stealing is in many people's eyes. Getting a speedy base stealer on, is tremendous, and can totally mess with a pitchers head. I watched the Expos win too many games on pure speed, when they had no power or on-base percentage guy's to speak of to discount a guy like Juan Pierre.

Make no mistake he IS a good lead off guy. He's just not worth 9 million a year.

[disposablehero]

i read somewhere around here that Pierre broke the record for lowest batting average for someone with 200+ hits, just this year......LOL!

Pierre sux. if i were the Dodgers, id rather have the ancient Lofton roaming around out there.

[HoustonGM]

i read somewhere around here that Pierre broke the record for lowest batting average for someone with 200+ hits, just this year......LOL!

Pierre sux. if i were the Dodgers, id rather have the ancient Lofton roaming around out there.
I think it was iether another thraed here, or Hardball Times. Maybe Baseball Prospectus. I remember the same article. I don't know if it was THE lowest avg with 200+ hits, but it was close to it.

Base stealing hurts your team unless you steal at a rate of about 75% or higher. Check out Baseball Between the Numbers. (the rate, called the breakeven point if i remebmer correctly, changes year-by-year, but lately, its been roughly 75%.)

[disposablehero]

yea, ive read it (a few times ;) )

[beerchaser]

if i were the Dodgers, id rather have the ancient Lofton roaming around out there.

Lofton's defense in CF was abysmal which is probably why he wasn't resigned but Pierre is not that much better defensively from what I've heard. So I don't know what Colletti was/is thinking with this signing. We definitely needed a CF, and the Giants had reportedly offered Pierre 4yrs/$34M so Colletti obviously thought he had to outbid them. I agree though, I don't think Pierre is worth $9M per for 5 yrs. However like I said it appears that "he's not worth that" is a phrase we're going to hear a lot this offseason.

[disposablehero]

actually, in 2006, Pierre was the best defensive CF in the NL, according to UZR (the best fielding metric i know of). Lofton was much worse.

but the defense isnt the reason id rather have lofton. the offense and cost are. his increased offensive value makes up for his worse defense. (.275 EqA vs .255)

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/dialed_in/discussion/2006_national_league_gold_gloves_as_i_see_it/

[beerchaser]

Well I don't have any stats to back it up (gasp!) but some of the articles I have read lately about Pierre have said that over his career he's been an average fielder at best.

It appears though that the early reports of the Pierre signing were somewhat premature. Colletti is now saying that there is no signing, at least not yet. It may still happen, but one can only hope that Ned has come to his senses.

[HoustonGM]

"He's another guy with great qualities as a human being, like Nomar [Garciaparra]," Dodgers general manager Ned Colletti told the Associated Press.

Colletti wouldn't confirm the deal with Pierre.

"It's either done or it's not done and right now it's not done," Colletti told AP.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2669903

*shrug* I don't like Coletti. Assuming this is true, you don't pay somebody nine million bucks because he has great qualities as a human being.

Hey Ned, wanna sign Nelson Mandela to a long-term deal to play first base?!

[beerchaser]

*shrug* I don't like Coletti. Assuming this is true, you don't pay somebody nine million bucks because he has great qualities as a human being.

He's made some good deals like getting Nomar relatively cheap last year, trading for Maddux and Ethier, and he's also made some headscratchers like the Julio Lugo and Mark Hendrickson deals. Win a few, lose a few.

More importantly though, Colletti made LA competitive again this year without trading away the farm to do it. The Dodgers were a total train wreck this time last year, as we went the Moneyball route with DePodesta and that blew up in our face.

He's gained respect this year with Dodger fans, but he's still on kind of a short leash. LA fans know their minor league system is loaded and are protective of it. If Colletti starts trading away the jewels of the farm system for a win now or else approach, watch out.

[HoustonGM]

Moneyball isn't a bad philosophy. It simply means exploiting inefficiencies in the market. Oakland's been doing it since Beane took over - you don't see them doing badly, do you? Boston does it. Toronto's starting to do it. It's not even moneyball, completely. It's sabermetrics. Understanding that a .300 batting average isn't all that great when the players OBP is .320. etc. etc.

[disposablehero]

Moneyball isn't a bad philosophy. It simply means _trying_ to exploit inefficiencies in the market. Oakland _has done it a few times_ since Beane took over - you don't see them doing badly, do you? Boston _supposedly_ does it. Toronto's starting to _think about_ doing it. It's not even moneyball, completely. It's sabermetrics. Understanding that a .300 batting average isn't all that great when the players OBP is .320. etc. etc.
;)

[Casey59]

*shrug* I don't like Coletti. Assuming this is true, you don't pay somebody nine million bucks because he has great qualities as a human being.
Hey Ned, wanna sign Nelson Mandela to a long-term deal to play first base?!

Ya, I'm down with that.

and, AND

"He's another guy with great qualities as a human being, like Nomar [Garciaparra]," Dodgers general manager Ned Colletti told the Associated Press.

Not to **** on a guy I don't know, but Nomar? Ummm . . . . Wow . . . uhhhhhh . . . ok

That is some amazing spin. . . . I mean like Tilt-A-Whirl spin, washing machine spin, Spin City . . .

[beerchaser]

I've got nothing against the moneyball theory, it has its uses, but it's not the be-all and end-all that some people make it out to be. Things that sound good in theory don't necessarily work in real life. ****, communism sounds good to a lot of people in theory (not to me though) but in real life it don't work that way.

Oakland has done well in the regular season, sure, but they have yet to win a championship with MB and even Billy Beane has said he thinks that his system doesn't seem to work in the playoffs. Theo Epstein talks about moneyball but Boston's modus operandiseems to be more about reacting to whatever the Yankees do, or trying to one-up them. Toronto I really don't know much of anything about, frankly.

As for DePodesta, he worked his computer ratios and eyeballed his printouts and came up with a group of players that did not mesh well together and were a team in name only. It came crashing down on him last year, and that was his undoing in LA.

[HoustonGM]

I've got nothing against the moneyball theory, it has its uses, but it's not the be-all and end-all that some people make it out to be. Things that sound good in theory don't necessarily work in real life. ****, communism sounds good to a lot of people in theory (not to me though) but in real life it don't work that way.
Communism would be a utopia in theory ;). I don't see what's so bad about moneyball. I mean, obviously you can't work SOLELY on it. But...how do you do good in the stock market? Exploit the inefficiencies.


Oakland has done well in the regular season, sure, but they have yet to win a championship with MB and even Billy Beane has said he thinks that his system doesn't seem to work in the playoffs.
There's a chapter on that in Baseball Between the Numbers, appropriately titled "Why Doesn't Billy Beane's **** Work in the Playoffs?"

When all is said and done, the playoffs are a total crapshoot and not one GM will ever figure out how to do good in the regular season and always succeed in the playoffs. If this year proves anything, it's that the playoffs are entirely up in the air and the regular season hardly matters once the playoff picture is set.

[disposablehero]

IIRC, in that same chapter, they say there are things that can be done to tilt the crapshoot slightly in your favor, ie. great #1 thru #3 starters and above avg defense is slightly better than average #1 thru #3 SP and above avg offense (or maybe that was The Book on The Book (http://www.amazon.com/Book-Landmark-Inquiry-Strategies-Actually/dp/0312332645/sr=8-1/qid=1164215802/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-0210548-1300679?ie=UTF8&s=books)?)

[HoustonGM]

I read it a while ago, so I'm not quite sure.

[beerchaser]

Communism would be a utopia in theory

Nah, not even in theory really. The "to each according to needs, from each according to ability" part works great for those who have needs but sucks for the ones with more ability since they don't get to enjoy the fruits of their labor. There's not much incentive there for them.


But...how do you do good in the stock market? Exploit the inefficiencies.

This is true, except that with stocks you can hold your winners for as long as you want or dump your dogs at anytime. In baseball it's the opposite. As a GM/owner you're stuck with a crappy contract for the duration, while your winners want out of theirs ASAP.

[HoustonGM]

This is true, except that with stocks you can hold your winners for as long as you want or dump your dogs at anytime. In baseball it's the opposite. As a GM/owner you're stuck with a crappy contract for the duration, while your winners want out of theirs ASAP.
It's a different type of market, sure.

[FRENCHREDSOX]

No 31 yr old is worth a GUARANTEED 17 million contrqct for 8 years

[beerchaser]

Well the Pierre signing is now official. I'm as mystified by this one as y'all are, frankly.

BTW, Matthews Jr. is going to get a 5yr/$50M deal from the Angels, thanks to his one good year. Who's next I wonder.

[HoustonGM]

Yeah, the Matthews deal was horrible too. You can't just go giving out 5 year $50 million contracts based on one good year. Especially when that one good year came at the age of 31, after the guy toiled for a wihle just trying to make it into the majors.

[FRENCHREDSOX]

Yeah, the Matthews deal was horrible too. You can't just go giving out 5 year $50 million contracts based on one good year. Especially when that one good year came at the age of 31, after the guy toiled for a wihle just trying to make it into the majors.

Agreed especially for a 31 CF but looks like the MARKET is going be very very weird - makes the NY/Damon deal look good now!



http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6198342

[FRENCHREDSOX]

I've got nothing against the moneyball theory, it has its uses, but it's not the be-all and end-all that some people make it out to be. Things that sound good in theory don't necessarily work in real life. ****, communism sounds good to a lot of people in theory (not to me though) but in real life it don't work that way.

Oakland has done well in the regular season, sure, but they have yet to win a championship with MB and even Billy Beane has said he thinks that his system doesn't seem to work in the playoffs. Theo Epstein talks about moneyball but Boston's modus operandiseems to be more about reacting to whatever the Yankees do, or trying to one-up them. Toronto I really don't know much of anything about, frankly.

As for DePodesta, he worked his computer ratios and eyeballed his printouts and came up with a group of players that did not mesh well together and were a team in name only. It came crashing down on him last year, and that was his undoing in LA.

Na - Red Sox dont USE "Money ball" in same sense as the A's they use for their FARM & drafting - the club when it was taken over had NO FARM no SPEED & played heavily on BIG BAT principle - the signings of Crisp,Loretta et al has moved this premise towards DEFENSE & prospect development


The ownership have accepted that NO ONE can Financially compete with BOTH New York clubs & so have had to "trade" smarter & develop players.


The signings of a BIG NAME is now countered by the NON SIGNING of a BIG NAME - eg Beckett's/Crisp's contract extensions basically have stopped Boston from RE SIGNING Trot Nixon or offering Alex Gonzalez a multi year deal...


The team's offer to Matzusaka is countered by the fact Schilling's contract come off the books post 07 etc etc

[FRENCHREDSOX]

I think this relevant to the debate:


http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6185144

[SFSteveG]

The Cubs are horrible with FA's. Always have been. I'm pretty sure the Cubs will have thrown out 30-50 mil with their signings this year.

[FRENCHREDSOX]

The Cubs are horrible with FA's. Always have been. I'm pretty sure the Cubs will have thrown out 30-50 mil with their signings this year.

Well 1 way or another they have DESTROYED an equitable FA market - cos that Soriano,Blanco & De Rosa deals has spawned the awful Matthews deal & the rest of the market will slowly be putrified by these deals (I mean if Matthews is "worth" 50 mill for 1 year of real good play what is Carlos Lee or Drew worth ?)

[ohms_law]

nah, it was a cruddy FA market this year to begin with. the fewer free agent's that there are, the more that each individual player will receive.

[HoustonGM]

Na - Red Sox dont USE "Money ball" in same sense as the A's they use for their FARM & drafting - the club when it was taken over had NO FARM no SPEED & played heavily on BIG BAT principle - the signings of Crisp,Loretta et al has moved this premise towards DEFENSE & prospect development
That is moneyball. Beane's doing the same thing - focusing more on defense and development of prospects. Why? Because they perceive stuff like defense to be undervalued right now. When the book was written, on-base percentage was undervalued. That's why people here "moneyball" and think "on-base percentage." Now that OBP is more of a mainstream stat, the market no longer under values it. (Although, the market does overvalue players with bad OBP, ala Juan Pierre!) Perhaps when you hear "sabermetrics" you should think "OBP", but not when you hear "Moneyball."


Well 1 way or another they have DESTROYED an equitable FA market - cos that Soriano,Blanco & De Rosa deals has spawned the awful Matthews deal & the rest of the market will slowly be putrified by these deals (I mean if Matthews is "worth" 50 mill for 1 year of real good play what is Carlos Lee or Drew worth ?)
The Blanco deal threw a wrench into the Zaun-Toronto negotiations, because Zaun believes he's worth more than "Blanco-money" considering he's going to be starting. The Cubs ruined it all! :(

And Lee's expected to sign with Houston for roughly $75 million....

[SirKodiak]

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/present-value/

[disposablehero]

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/present-value/
at least he's trying to give them his best (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2675583)

[HoustonGM]

Thanks to FireJoeMorgan (http://firejoemorgan.blogspot.com/), I got the full Ned Colletti quote on Juan Pierre.

"This man gets on base an awful lot," Colletti said. "He gets 200 hits or more, is a great guy on a club and, like Nomar (Garciaparra), has great qualities as a human being."

Okay. It's official. The Dodgers GM is an idiot. First off, yeah, he got 200 hits...in 700 at bats. that's a .292 batting average. A lot of players can get 200 hits given 700 at bats. That's not special.

And..>GETS ON BASE A LOT?>?!?!?! You must be kidding me.

I'm sorry Dodger fans :(

[ohms_law]

rotfl

[SFSteveG]

Thanks to FireJoeMorgan (http://firejoemorgan.blogspot.com/), I got the full Ned Colletti quote on Juan Pierre.

"This man gets on base an awful lot," Colletti said. "He gets 200 hits or more, is a great guy on a club and, like Nomar (Garciaparra), has great qualities as a human being."

Okay. It's official. The Dodgers GM is an idiot. First off, yeah, he got 200 hits...in 700 at bats. that's a .292 batting average. A lot of players can get 200 hits given 700 at bats. That's not special.

And..>GETS ON BASE A LOT?>?!?!?! You must be kidding me.

I'm sorry Dodger fans :(

I'd rather have Soriano for his contract than Pierre for his. It's a bad to worse situation.

[beerchaser]

OK I for one already said I didn't like the Pierre contract, no need to rub it in

[SFSteveG]

OK I for one already said I didn't like the Pierre contract, no need to rub it in

But it feel soooooo goooooood.

[beerchaser]

But it feel soooooo goooooood.

Said Barry Bonds after his most recent 'roid treatment. :D

Don't forget the Giants also made a big offer to Pierre, 4 years at $8M+ per year is what I heard. That would be a bit of a change for SF though, their team usually consists of members of the Geritol generation. :p

[FRENCHREDSOX]

Well the weirdness got even weirder with the Eaton deal 20 mill for a guy who has been fit for 3 years!!

[ohms_law]

I'm telling yall, these deals are only strange because of the lack of real talent on the market this year. There are teams that think it's vital to sign players, regardless of actual talent.

Salary does not, and never really has, corrolated well with talent.

[FRENCHREDSOX]

The only really sensible/good deal so far is Alou for 8.5 mill to the METS -he buys them a real OF to give time to Milledge to develop (if he develops) & to a lesser extent the Counsell deal (cos of Hardy's problems to stay on the field)

[ohms_law]

very true.

[FRENCHREDSOX]

more cubbies fun n games for a .500 lifetime pitcher

The Cubs are one of the finalists for free-agent left-hander Ted Lilly, having offered a four-year deal worth an estimated $40 million, major-league sources said Monday on the opening day of baseball's winter meetings. Lilly, 30, who went 15-13 with a 4.31 ERA with the Blue Jays last season and is 59-58 lifetime with a 4.60 ERA, would give general manager Jim Hendry a No. 2 pitcher to follow Carlos Zambrano in the rotation. But Hendry denied a deal was done during a media briefing, saying widespread rumors of the deal were "completely erroneous."

[FRENCHREDSOX]

Lilly 4 years for 40 mill ? Wow I wonder how much a pitcher with a POSITIVE win record is worth to the CUBS ??

[FRENCHREDSOX]

Now this makes sense:


http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6265388

[ohms_law]

:rolleyes:
and people complain about deals in BBMO...

[disposablehero]

i dont see the problem. houston is hurting pretty bad for SP and they got one. i assume the intent is to sign Jennings to an extension.

Tavares - weak
Bucholz - weak
Hirsch - potentially good

Asencio - weak
Jennings - coming into his prime and coming off a good season as a SP in COL

this is basically Hirsch for Jennings (not at all what i would call the worst trade ever). it appears to me like the Astros traded a piece of the future for a bit of the present. that happens all the time, no?

[ohms_law]

humm, now that's an interesting comment...

for discussion, the Astro's pitching lineup according to ESPN:


Pitchers
NUM NAME POS BAT THW AGE HT WT BORN
37 Matt Albers P L R 23 6-0 205 Houston, TX
46 Miguel Asencio P R R 26 6-2 190 Villa Mella, DR
38 Ezequiel AstacioP R R 27 6-3 150 Hato Mayor, DR
41 Brandon Backe P R R 28 6-0 195 Galveston, TX
58 Dave Borkowski P R R 29 6-1 233 Detroit, MI
32 Jason Jennings P L R 28 6-2 235 Dallas, TX
54 Brad Lidge P R R 29 6-5 210 Sacramento, CA
47 Trever Miller P R L 33 6-3 200 Louisville, KY
64 Fernando Nieve P R R 24 6-0 195 Puerto Cabello, Venezuela
44 Roy Oswalt P R R 29 6-0 185 Weir, MS
50 Chad Qualls P R R 28 6-5 220 Lomita, CA
51 Wandy Rodriguez P B L 27 5-11 160 Santiago, DR
43 Chris Sampson P R R 28 6-0 170 Pasadena, TX
35 Dan Wheeler P R R 29 6-3 222 Warwick, RI
17 Woody Williams P R R 40 6-0 200 Houston, TX

Astros roster: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/roster?team=hou

[ohms_law]

Don't forget Oswalt

Still... you have a point.

[disposablehero]

most of those guys wont even make it out of ST.

Oswalt, Williams (kinda), and Backe (somewhat) are what they had going for their rotation before the deal.

they picked up Jennings and hope to regain clemens. still a rotation that needs lots of work, IMHO.

[ohms_law]

point taken.
anyway, most sports writers are dumber than we are, so I never put too much stock into sports news anyway...
*shrug*

:D

[FRENCHREDSOX]

most of those guys wont even make it out of ST.

Oswalt, Williams (kinda), and Backe (somewhat) are what they had going for their rotation before the deal.

they picked up Jennings and hope to regain clemens. still a rotation that needs lots of work, IMHO.

Yea not only they picked up Jennings but they picked him up cheap (5.5 mill) for
a average CF & 2 prospects ( 1 one of which has serious arm problems otherwise it would have been Garland not Jennings in Texas)


And from the Rockies point of view they got the max for a guy they knew they COULDNT/WOULDNT resign

So a good ON PAPER trade for both teams

[HoustonGM]

most of those guys wont even make it out of ST.

Oswalt, Williams (kinda), and Backe (somewhat) are what they had going for their rotation before the deal.

they picked up Jennings and hope to regain clemens. still a rotation that needs lots of work, IMHO.
Backe's actually expected to miss most, if not all, of the season, coming off Tommy John surgery.

[disposablehero]

Backe's actually expected to miss most, if not all, of the season, coming off Tommy John surgery.
right...hence "(somewhat)" ;)

[HoustonGM]

lol..it's more like ... "(6-10 games (if that))" :p

[FRENCHREDSOX]

ok the Jennings trade makes sorta sense how about this one for the Mariners' remembering that they're middle infield is set & Vidro can hardly run ....


http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6270798

[disposablehero]

ok the Jennings trade makes sorta sense how about this one for the Mariners' remembering that they're middle infield is set & Vidro can hardly run ....


http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6270798
this is a head scratcher.

it doesnt say in that article, but i read elsewhere the mariners had to agree to give him an additional vesting option for 2009 to get him to waive his no-trade.

this is a horrible pickup for the Mariners, even if they did only give up a bag of balls and a box of chocolate.

[FRENCHREDSOX]

this is a horrible pickup for the Mariners, even if they did only give up a bag of balls and a box of chocolate.

Snelling isnt BAD at all he is just a human infirmery!! If ,& its a big if concerning him ,he plays a 100+ games he will be a .300 hitter with 20HR potential at 9 million less than Vidro!

[ohms_law]

well... he is a descent hitter. move him to DH, and he ought to be able to stay healthier. Less wear and tear, at least.


The Mariners will pay $12 million of the $16 million remaining on Vidro's contract, according to the Washington Post. Vidro is signed for $7.5 million next season and $8.5 million in 2008.
so basically, a descent DH for $5.5 and $6.5 million per. Not the greatest contract that I've ever seen, but what other choice do the Mariners have?

[FRENCHREDSOX]

what other choice do the Mariners have?



The 28 players who became free agents when their teams failed to offer 2007 contracts Tuesday:

American League

BALTIMORE (3) - Todd Williams, rhp; Aaron Rakers, rhp; David Newhan, of.
CHICAGO (1) - Eduardo Sierra, rhp.
DETROIT (1) - Alexis Gomez, of.
KANSAS CITY (2) - Scott Dohmann, rhp; Brandon Duckworth, rhp.
LOS ANGELES (1) - Jason Bulger, rhp.
MINNESOTA (2) - Luis Rodriguez, inf; Willie Eyre, rhp.
NEW YORK (1) - Aaron Guiel, of.
OAKLAND (1) - Jerome Williams rhp.
SEATTLE (1) - Joel Pineiro, rhp.
TAMPA BAY (1) - Damon Hollins, of.
TEXAS (1) - Michael Wood, rhp.

National League

ATLANTA (2) - Marcus Giles, 2b; Chris Reitsma, rhp.
CHICAGO (2) - Jose Reyes, c; Adam Harben, rhp.
CINCINNATI (2) - Brandon Claussen, lhp; Miguel Perez, c.
COLORADO (1) - Chin-Hui Tsao, rhp.
LOS ANGELES (2) - Toby Hall, c; Jayson Werth, of.
NEW YORK (1) - Victor Zambrano, rhp.
ST. LOUIS (2) - Rick Ankiel, of; Jorge Sosa, rhp.
SAN DIEGO (1) - Jon Knott, of.


The guys in black would have made as much sense & have definite capabilities to play in the field

[ohms_law]

heh... good point
:o

[disposablehero]

well... he is a descent hitter. move him to DH, and he ought to be able to stay healthier. Less wear and tear, at least.


so basically, a descent DH for $5.5 and $6.5 million per. Not the greatest contract that I've ever seen, but what other choice do the Mariners have?
plus the potential vesting option in 2009 (rumoured to be in the neighborhood of $8mil).

[boomboom]

ok the Jennings trade makes sorta sense how about this one for the Mariners' remembering that they're middle infield is set & Vidro can hardly run ....


http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6270798

such a bad trade. Sneilling will win the Batting crown someday. Another bone head move by the M's. We have traded away too much talent. We are getting older, with some veteran pieces...but we don't have the big pieces. Vidro maybe 5 years ago would have been a great pickup, now...heck no.

[FRENCHREDSOX]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hotstove06/columns/story?columnist=rogers_phil&id=2701105r

[SFSteveG]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hotstove06/columns/story?columnist=rogers_phil&id=2701105r

That is just wrong on so many levels.

[SFSteveG]

And also, Why did you post this here?