Official "why X is better/worse than Baseball Mogul" thread.

[iansmith]

This is a thread I am opening to talk about PureSim, OOTP and other baseball games and how they compare in your opinion to Baseball Mogul.

PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING

First off, lets play nice. I know many fans of all these games feel as strongly about them as we the developers do, so lets keep from insulting the games, it's fans or it's developers. (Developers are people too!)

All I ask is criticism be constructive. If you hate the game, tell me why. And keep in mind one person may find a feature to be the most important part of the game, and another may think it's a dumb idea. Saying sim games stink because you can't play it in 3D on a PlayStation is not helpfull.

DING DING! Round one!

[disposablehero]

i'll fire the first shot across the bow......


its not a matter of switching for me, so i didnt vote in the poll. even though they are all baseball sims, i buy BM, OOTP, and PureSim (well, not anymore :( ) for different reasons.

if i had a gun to my head and was forced to choose only one, it would be OOTP. OOTP's more accurate rules, total control and customization trumps BM's speed, IMO. there is nothing in BM that i cant do with OOTP, but there are many things in OOTP, that i cant do with BM.

i do think BM got close to stealing the crown from OOTP in the most recent versions of both (mostly because OOTP stepped back, rather than BM stepping forward), but im also privy to the next version of OOTP, which runs away with the crown, probably never to be caught again.

awaiting return fire!

[boomboom]

No return fire needed. That was a very respectful response. Right now the cost of buying ootp is the reason why I can't, won't buy it.

I did get a refund last year because I thought ootpbm2006 was a major step backwards. ootp6.5 was far better then 2006, heck...ootp6 was better ,IMO.

I pay roughly $14.95 for BMO each month, it takes most of my time, and right now I couldn't really enjoy the major customization that ootp offers. Thou if I had the time I would play that game.

BM I really like the patch support, and the community. It is the reason why I come back and buy a version each year. 2k4 left a very sour taste in my mouth, but with 2k7, all of that disappeared.

Some of the things i don't like about ootp, is how long the lahman database takes to load. I really wish they would include the database with the game as BM and puresim (does/did).

I haven't played with ootp at all since the the 2nd patch, (after I got a refund). ootpbm2006, left the same bitter taste in my mouth as did BM 2k4.

bm 2k8 looks to be exciting. With the lack of features of BMO (http://forum.sportsmogul.com/showthread.php?t=124434), I might jump ship soon and join an ootp league. BM 2k7 isn't really multiplayer friendly...

Thou, Clay and Ian continue to surprise me with their games and go above and beyond my expectations. bm 2k7 was really a hit. I won't probably be buying ootp this year.

[disposablehero]

speak of the devil (http://www.ootpbaseball.net/)

:cool:

[Rongar]

Hi Ian,

Until last June when I bought BM7, I had played Earl Weaver Baseball for 17 years...I don't think I've played it since.

I especially appreciate the opportunity that BM7 affords for participation (the ability to "hit" and "pitch" oneself); experimentation;(from managing Brooklyn Superbas thro the last Century, to Guiding the Washington Nationals into this); and creation(the ability to customize players; leagues; the way the game plays,etc). One small creation crib ...I wish that it was possible to make most right-handed pitchers and hitters stronger against those opponents with similar stance - ditto with lefty players.

I fear you may have opened a can of worms, Ian, by inviting comparisons to other baseball games...now I'm all agog to see what "Out Of The Park" is all about, having read the preceding posts

[Jeff Olsen]

I have owned one of practically every computer baseball game (not counting sequels in most cases) ever published since 1985, including what's probably the very first commercially produced text sim (http://www.the-underdogs.info/game.php?id=2202). You guys should expand the PbP dialog to be more like that one.

[iansmith]

I fear you may have opened a can of worms, Ian, by inviting comparisons to other baseball games...now I'm all agog to see what "Out Of The Park" is all about, having read the preceding posts
I'm not worried. Some people will buy OOTP instead of us next year. And some people will buy us instead of OOTP. And some people will go buy World of Warcraft. :rolleyes:

I am here because I want to make great games that people enjoy. To do that, I need to know what people like AND DISLIKE about our games.

Of course, I don't really need to ask people to complain... I think everyones favorite pasttime is complaining about something!

[Red Sox Fan 734]

I play a lot of sim games. I was a huge HH(high heat) fan but they went out of buisness and i have bought OOTP games before(only 2 versions.) With the previous versions of the games ive bought i've found that BBM is far better. The only thing i liked about OOTP was the actuall bidding on free agents.

[TacoBoy]

Well I've played both OOTP and BM. I feel that BM is the better OVERALL sim but OOTP has alot of features that BM should implement. Such as FA bidding, almanac and much more in-depth stats just to name a few. If you could combined BM and OOTP you would prolly have the greatest game in the history of the world. I anxiously await the new releases of both BM and OOTP to see how they compare. To be honest I think the competion will bring out the best in both games. Just look at how the Madden franchise has dropped off now that it has no competion...

[ohms_law]

I couldn't agree more with the fact that the competition will bring out the best in both games.

Anyway, I think that the main thing that OOTP has on BBM is customization. The way that you can edit the leagues structure to your hearts content is a big draw to me. The main problem with it is that there's simply too much stuff in OOTP. The managers and coaches are great, and the level of detail is great, but you're forced to deal with it. You can't simply leave things as they are and ignore what you 're not interested in, the game doesn't really let you do that. It's kind of hard to describe... maybe I'll reinstall it and do some screen shots or something, if there's really enough interest.

[disposablehero]

you aren't forced to use any option.

you can turn off coaches and scouts, set how many minor leagues you want if its too overwhelming to run an MLB replica (or none at all), and toggle just about any rules you want (waivers, DFA, 40-man rosters, ammy draft date, # of rounds, trading, financials, etc.) to strip it down to its core. you could even let those things remain on, but assign your coaches to handle tasks you dont want to (signing FA, filling out minor league rosters, etc.).

[ohms_law]

No, I know. Forced is the wrong word... I can't really explain it. There is quite a bit of work that you need to do in order to simply sim through the games.

I know what your saying, and your right. Those options are good, it's simply the implementation that is a problem. The interface is always what turned me off, not the features themselves.

[disposablehero]

yea, there's definitely a bit of a learning curve, but its one that can be overcome with use :p

[ohms_law]

No doubt. But then...why? I don't have everything that I want in Mogul, but I can enjoy it. Last year's version of OOTP was just frustrating.

I'm certain that there working on ease of use though, since that was probably the largest complaint with OOTP. I'm looking forward to trying this year's version out, but the chances of me being won over are probably about the same as the chances of you being won over by Mogul.
*shrug*

[boomboom]

Well, he does buy both games ;)

[ohms_law]

So do I.
:)

We each choose one over the other though, for various personal reasons.

[boomboom]

more like personal taste, not really personal reasons ;)

I like pointless padding :D

[ohms_law]

lol

Let's not ruin Ian's thread though.
;)

[robinhoodnik]

1. The community is #1. The Mogul forums are by far the best forums of any sort that I have participated in. I like that there is no tyrannical overlord type of moderator on these forums.
2. The game is EASY to mod too. That's important to the longevity.
3. Very very very easy to learn. It operates much like "regular" baseball games as far as the menus go. If you've played the consoles, you can learn this quickly.
4. We usually get some of what we ask for in the forums. Whether or not it's always operating correctly, we get it, so we should really complain less.
5. The game (BBM) always works (for about 99% of us). I had about 24 hours of effort into OOTP before it finally kicked over for me (I wasn't very alone in this problem). Even then it had no images. I know they didn't ship with many, but there were none period.
6. The anti-piracy they used at OOTP was ridiculous. Someone mentioned that I was wrong in this. It may have changed after I bought my download, but the only way of retrieving my copy, or moving it to another PC was by e-mailing OOTP and waiting for them to assist me. There wasn't a download code with my download. :mad: What is the real percentage of people who pirate a stat sim game anyways? As someone else mentioned, and I'm paraphrasing here, "is it worth pissing off your real (majority of users) customers to prevent a few from pirating the program?".
7. BMO. Simply incomparable. There's nothing like being in a good league with good GM's. BM is the free sample, BMO is the addiction.;) If some of the more requested options could be added............:)
8. Programmer participation in the forums. It's great that Youse guys actually read these forums yourselves and respond in your own forums. I think that it shows a commitment to your product that isn't all that common anymore.

[PDog]

It doesn't have the most stuff in it but its had all the players I want (I'm a big Prospect guy) its fun and its pretty deep but not to deep. The best thing about it is the speed.

[diaspora04]

I am new to "real" baseball sims, but follow the Detroit Tigers fairly religiously. I heard good things about BM, downloaded it a week or so ago and have really enjoyed playing it ever since. This week, I decided to take a look at OOTP as well, but learned to my dismay (and after I bought the game) that OOTP relies on modders to create actual mlb and milb rosters. Judging from the OOTP message board (see, e.g., http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/showthread.php?t=144922), roster creation (actually, the lack thereof) is a major issue in the OOTP community. The lack of actual rosters and unpleasantness that seems to be associated with roster creation is really hampering my interest in OOTP.

I hope this info is responsive to the query.

Best regards.

Dan in NY

[rich12545]

I played PureSim until strangely it quit working on my computer. Then I played ootp last year but not for very long. I really like BM08 because it pretty much allows me to enjoy the part that I like most - playing out games. I say pretty much because I'd like to see ball trajectory fixed and also better sounds. Plus a way to "easily" make new rosters. I've always wanted a game like this with 50s rules but the top team from the seventies back in the league.

[Robert]

I love baseball Mogul, and I've been playing it since 2003. And I open up 2003, and play it sometimes, and then open up 2008. If you compare both of them, you guys have made so many changes, it's ridiculous. I'm sure OOTP have done the same thing, I downloaded the demo this year, and....It's really nice, but way too many features. I like them and all, but it seems like all this stuff you have to take care of, and maintain just to sim a season.

I love reality, don't get me wrong, and I like mogul's approach towards that, but stray away from OOTP's version of it too.

One thing I'd like to see, is better draft names. Some of the players come out of future/fictional drafts are weird. Ephraim comes up almost every year, lol Ephraim Johnson, Parker, etc.

Also, a way to watch High School/College players progress would be awesome. But other than that, I absolutely love Baseball Mogul, and will continue to buy every year, unless something horrible were to happen. (Only way is if you guys stopped, or it became a video game, and not sim based.)

[MarinerJT]

I've also been playing BM for a few years now in addition to Out of The Park and Strat O Matic. I like them all but for different reasons.

BM - Easy to use with a great community and help section
MLB rosters out of the box
All the stats and control I need for a game that I don't have to work on constantly if I don't want to.


OOTP - Extremely customizable. Fictional Leagues can be edited any way you want
The layout is excellent with a web browser feel that lets you easily go to screens that you visit often
Stats are unbelievable and frankly way more than I need to enjoy a game
Great Mod community

Strat O Matic - Excellent realism in stats for replays.

Dislikes from each

BM - A little more realism when negotiating with Free Agents and other player contract issues.

OOTP - LEARNING CURVE (500 page instruction manual)
Way too much for a casual player or player with limited time.
Still buggy. Crashes are still common
Have to depend on MOD community to enjoy MLB seasons.

Strat O Matic - $$$$$$$$$$$ For the most accurate stats you have to buy each year. Even the least accurate is more expensive than BM or OOTP
Really only a text based season reproduction. No financial or true team management

BM could use the OOTP interface to make things a little more classy but in my opinion and with the limited time I have to play I prefer BM and will always buy a copy to support the excellent work of the developers. Keep up the great work.

[ohms_law]

BM could use the OOTP interface to make things a little more classy but in my opinion and with the limited time I have to play I prefer BM and will always buy a copy to support the excellent work of the developers. Keep up the great work.
Ugh, no way! The OOTP interface is the one thing that I really dislike about the game.

Although, it really sounds like all that you're saying here is that the BM interface needs an update. That, I do agree with. It has been receiving updates this year though, and one thing that Clay needs to be careful of is actually doing too much like OOTP did. The simplicity and cleanness of the BM interface is one of the strengths of the game.

[boomboom]

The simplicity and cleanness of the BM interface is one of the strengths of the game.


Yes and No. The Interface is dated, and I would like to see a full screen (like ootp) ootp interface isn't that bad, IMO. Once you get used to it, it gets easy. The problem is the learning curve.

[daves]

I've stated this several times. The other game can play exhibition games, has an editable scheduler and playing a single game is easier. I'd love to play an exhibition game with the 2004 Red Sox against the 1978 Red Sox and many more.

BBM does win out on it's user friendliness, better speed, balance cash feature on trades and easier trading.

But it is missing on some basic things that I hope will be incorperated into the game soon.

[themcnoisy]

OOTP is just another in a long series of sports database games rolled out to a formula by Sports Interactive.

The difference between OOTP, Football Manager (Soccer) and Eastside Hockey which they all develop isnt very much at all.

The interface is similiar in all of them, which isnt necessarily a bad thing, but you feel as though your playing the same game - even though its a different sport.



Bmogul is and does feel designed for Baseball fans, by baseball fans.

It dosent play like your ordering a pair of Shoes from an online catalogue company and waiting a fortnight only for them to send you a pair of socks.

[boomboom]

yea, there's definitely a bit of a learning curve, but its one that can be overcome with use :p
What ever happend to you D-hero?

[kellys11]

Nice thread, I have never tried OOTP but may in the future. I like BM and it's ease to use.

My question I have . . . is there a OOTP on-line or some other competition to BMO?

Just wondering. I hope I didn't turn the thread away from it's intent, if so I can delete or you can have a moderator move.

[HoustonGM]

Nice thread, I have never tried OOTP but may in the future. I like BM and it's ease to use.

My question I have . . . is there a OOTP on-line or some other competition to BMO?

Just wondering. I hope I didn't turn the thread away from it's intent, if so I can delete or you can have a moderator move.
I know there are online leagues that sim using OOTP, but I don't think that there are any leagues ran online by the OOTP company like BMO is ran

[themcnoisy]

OOTP is ran by sports interactive, they are about to bring out an online soccer game in the mould of Football Manager here in Europe.

You can bet your bottom dollar that OOTPonline will be just around the corner if this game is a hit. If you have played Eastside Hockey Manager, OOTP or Football Manager, any of the features that are a success end up in the other games.

This isnt always a good thing though as I hate the majority of the features they think are a good inclusion, and I absolutely hate the User Interface.

[ohms_law]

Yea, me too.

[metsguy234]

I hate to say it, but we are in big trouble if they put the Lahman DB right into the game. That is their main problem right now.

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/ = our rivals

[HoustonGM]

What makes us "in big trouble"?

[metsguy234]

Uh... maybe more people would buy OOTP if that was included.

Look at this:

Hypothetical: If LDB is added to OOTP, OOTP becomes the top simulation game. Why? Because OOTP has all of BBM's non-Lahman DB features, and some additional features (worldwide leagues, WW, DFA'ing). If OOTP got the Lahman DB, then they would have a better game technically.

Usually better games sell more.

[HoustonGM]

Uh... maybe more people would buy OOTP if that was included.

Look at this:

Hypothetical: If LDB is added to OOTP, OOTP becomes the top simulation game. Why? Because OOTP has all of BBM's non-Lahman DB features, and some additional features (worldwide leagues, WW, DFA'ing). If OOTP got the Lahman DB, then they would have a better game technically.

Usually better games sell more.
The Lahman database already exists for use with OOTP. It's just not built in. I don't think building it into the game would do much. Just because OOTP would have it built in along with more features that Mogul does not have would not make OOTP the better game. They're different games. Mogul is much simpler, much more user-friendly, and much MUCH faster. And that's just the start of it. They both have their pros and cons. I don't think a built-in Lahman database would make OOTP any better than Mogul.

[metsguy234]

The Lahman database already exists for use with OOTP. It's just not built in. I don't think building it into the game would do much. Just because OOTP would have it built in along with more features that Mogul does not have would not make OOTP the better game. They're different games. Mogul is much simpler, much more user-friendly, and much MUCH faster. And that's just the start of it. They both have their pros and cons. I don't think a built-in Lahman database would make OOTP any better than Mogul.

But it would make OOTP sell more, I would think.

[HoustonGM]

But it would make OOTP sell more, I would think.
More than BBM? I dunno. I don't know the current figures either though.

It probably would improve OOTP's sales somewhat, but I don't think by much, seeing as though historical leagues can still be played in OOTP, even without the built in database.

[etothep]

ootp is just to detailed and complicated with too much micromanagement for me...however i do like some of the puresim features, like a customizable xml file that affects the game

[boomboom]

I think that ootp sells more via website, but Mogul sells more overall. Due to it being available in stores.

I think that ootp has a bigger following...but is it a better game? It is a darn good one. Better then mogul? no, is mogul better then ootp, no.

Each has there pluses and minuses. And each person has there own opinion. I personally perfer Mogul. And why I can't stop playing it might have something to do with it.

[brewcrew12333]

I personally feel OOTP is a better game. I like realism, and have Santana in AAA and all that just doesnt cut it for me. In OOTP if you send a star player down they have to clear waivers and all that, thats the kinda game I would want. I also like how it easy to run a league, you dont need to enter lineups or anything like that as the other teams export the file. Only negative thing imo, is the fact that its 34.99 and doesnt have its own rosters set.

[damonrusst]

Does OOTP have a PBP feature? I tried it once a few years ago and it didn't. i found the interface infuriating. Took too long to do anything.

If it doesn't, I think that gives a big advantage to Mogul.

[damonrusst]

So I tried the new version of OOTP last night, realized it does have PBP but a vastly inferior one in my opinion. Overall interface still confusing and unintuitive. BBM wins hands down as far as I'm concerned.

If BBM adds coaches and scouts etc, i hope it can do it in an easier way so it doesn't turn into a similar morass.

[Alloutwar]

You know, I browsed the OOTP site from time to time over the last few weeks, but every time I tried to click on a link to see screenshots or demo info, every link was broken or caused HTML bleed on the page. I have been itching for something like BM, but with a little more of the full roster rules in place...where it wasn't so easy to game the AI, but other aspects were more realistic, like injuries, free agency, budgeting for expenses...

I've played BM2k7 for just over a year now, and ever since moving I've REALLY been addicted...but I feel like I'm ready for something more, maybe. At least to give it a try.

I am installing the OOTP demo now...I'll let you guys know what I think (I know you'll be holding your breath). :)

[Alloutwar]

Well, that was a bad start...I loaded the game, and was immediately impressed by the interface and the 'clean-ness' of it all. I began a major-league type of game...only to find the team names were subbed out with fictional names like 'Shockers' and 'Elevation'. Hmm....a little silly?

But then, I could start as an unemployed manager...how cool is that! Work my way up, from team to team...the face generator automatically created fictional faces for players? And updated them, when they were traded, aged, or even gained weight? HOLY Lord of baseball sims...I was in love!

Although, I would miss the action photos from Jeff Olsen's generic set... :(

So after the 8 minute setup, I could start the league that I wanted...but just then my laptop froze. ?!?! I have heard of lots of OOTP issues...but right off the bat?? To be fair, my laptop has frozen twice over the past month...could've been windows media player, as that has been open every time.

Anyway - I restarted and brought up the game, figuring I'd have to start all over...but it saved everything! I plucked out my game, and applied to manage a rookie-ball team. Good stuff! Now I am playing with the roster, viewing stats of players (nationality flag! hah) that I can't interpret...but I can move forward or back...the headlines generated (just from my hiring) are impressive...the interface is really crisp and top-notch. And the depth of the league...wow. I am impressed. I will keep playing, and see how games go...although setting a lineup and positions is a pain...and after going through it, I realized I was only in January...and in March, the AI traded away my entire team in one transaction...so now I have a new set of Rookies. Uhhhm...interesting. But I'll keep playing.

Once again - no slight to BBM, it is a great game...and I will return to my fictional Pirates dynasty later tonight to do my free agent signings. :)

[boomboom]

You know, I browsed the OOTP site from time to time over the last few weeks, but every time I tried to click on a link to see screenshots or demo info, every link was broken or caused HTML bleed on the page. I have been itching for something like BM, but with a little more of the full roster rules in place...where it wasn't so easy to game the AI, but other aspects were more realistic, like injuries, free agency, budgeting for expenses...

I've played BM2k7 for just over a year now, and ever since moving I've REALLY been addicted...but I feel like I'm ready for something more, maybe. At least to give it a try.

I am installing the OOTP demo now...I'll let you guys know what I think (I know you'll be holding your breath). :)

I suggest trying 2k8 ;)

[Alloutwar]

I tried the 2k8 demo and hated it...I loaded a BM2k7 game from mid-season, and my team suddenly started over with a 0-0 record....despite already playing 52 games. :P

I still gave it the benefit of the doubt, and started playing some PBP mode games...but it didn't display player speed anymore once they were on base...and the entire layout was revamped, in a not-too-helpful sort of way. Once I started seenig the threads about new bugs, and specifically the problems with fictional player development (which is all I play), I knew I would have a problem if I switched to BM2k8. At that point - why mess with what was working, for me?

I followed most of the bugs with some interest, and considered putting 2k8 on my x-mas list...but until the contract stuff is ironed out, I really don't feel like buying a new version of the game. Maybe I'm kind of stuck in my ways - and I am happy with 2k7, mostly - but I don't want to purchase another version till some of the things that have apparently been around for years are addressed.

[Reade]

For me there are 2 issues with every game I play, first is time. I have a special needs child, a wife and a job which doesn't leave alot of time for myself.


I don't have 2, 3, or more hours every day to play, heck sometimes it just 2 or 3 hours a week to play. With these time constraints I don't want to spend most of it setting up a game. BM gives me enough options to keep it interesting but not time consuming. Don't get me wrong there could be some things added to make BM better but for now I don't have the time to figure out OOTP. I tried the demo for OOTP once on my day off and spent basicly the whole day and still didn't know what the heck I was doing. Now if I had all the time in the world I might say OOTP is better but not at this point in my life.

The second thing is the people involved with the game, players and makers. I quit playing a golf game that I loved just because the people couldn't get along together. There was constant bickering and fighting and if you played a round with this guy it would make someone else mad at you. I have found another golf game(JN6) where everyone gets along and helps each other. Since then I do one thing now with every game I buy(none at all lately), I go to their forums to see how helpful and friendly the community is and after spending a couple of days here and over at OOTP, I found that this was a friendlier place to visit compared to OOTP boards. I also like the fact that the guy in control of the game visits and responds to questions, along with his top hitman(IAN):p

If the scheduling was fixed and the 40 man roster rules were in place BM would be the perfect game for me. Hopefully next years version will have these 2 things fixed.

[Clay Dreslough]

I found that this was a friendlier place to visit compared to OOTP boards. I also like the fact that the guy in control of the game visits and responds to questions, along with his top hitman(IAN):p

If the scheduling was fixed and the 40 man roster rules were in place BM would be the perfect game for me. Hopefully next years version will have these 2 things fixed.Thanks for the great feedback. The new scheduling system this year should make things a lot better. If you still see issues, let me know. I've started working on the 40-man roster rules, but it will take some work to get it right along with the relevant computer AI.

Clay

[dbacksjosh]

Okay, I will do the real poll so we can tally the votes. NO PREGNANT CHADS!

[Coach Owens]

BBM. OOTP costs 15 more dollars for a "license" so you can play more than 1 season.

[RickD]

BBM is this even a question?

[CatKnight]

'Fraid it is. BBM still blows up after 4-5 seasons. OOTP almost never blows it up, and on the off chance it does it recovers 2-3 years later.

(Oh, and Coach? In an OOTP sim that started in '68, the '82 Mariners won it all :))

[metsguy234]

OOTP is very detailed. BBM is very simple.

I have both games, and while I will often have an urge to play a game of BBM, I rarely, if ever, get an urge to play OOTP.

I vote BBM.

[belial]

Uh, you're **** right it is. BM is buggy, incomplete and worthless to even attempt a competitive era against the ai. OOTP is more complex and takes more time to set up but it's basically comparing a a Pinto against the GT40. The Pinto may be the better grocery getter, but the more awesome machine is the GT40, hands down. You put the work and manintence into it, and you will be extremely happy.

[RedsoxRockies]

I think They are both very good games, but BBM wins. It is fast, and you can go really in depth or play for ten minutes at a time. I think if BBM can correct a few issues, and get a little more detailed without out becoming overly detailed, it could be one of the greatest games ever

[dbacksjosh]

I think They are both very good games, but BBM wins. It is fast, and you can go really in depth or play for ten minutes at a time. I think if BBM can correct a few issues, and get a little more detailed without out becoming overly detailed, it could be one of the greatest games ever


Agreed! I think BBM has the most potential to be the best in-depth user friendly baseball-sim...

[belial]

BBM. OOTP costs 15 more dollars for a "license" so you can play more than 1 season.

Well worth it.

[StreetMedic]

BBM. OOTP costs 15 more dollars for a "license" so you can play more than 1 season.

Whoa, wait a sec.

Could you clarify that for me, please, Coach?

I assume you mean it costs extra to carry your existing league forward into the next season, within the same installation of the same version of the game (as opposed to upgrading to the next version of OOTP).

I read OOTPB9's EULA and saw no mention of that, and saw only the one price of approx. $40 specified on the registration screen.

*Nowhere* did I see any mention of the possible need to purchase an additional "license" at a later point in time, for any reason. That's conspicuously absent, considering the description touts the (rightly expected, IMHO) ability to play you league ad infinitum, into the fictional future.

I'm curious about this, as it strikes me as a bit of a cheesy way to do business if I do, in fact, understand that correctly.

I have no firsthand knowledge/experience with OOTP, however. Maybe folks who've actually used it find it doesn't seem that way in actual practice...

[ragecage]

Ive never played OOTP, didnt even know it existed. But i will surely give it a try as I am frustrated that after 5 seasons, most if not all the teams are 100 Overall.

[MizzouRah]

I can't pick one or the other.

I play BM with real rosters and love the quickness in playing months at a time.

OOTP is MUCH MUCH deeper, so I go much slower and I play with fictional players.. but I don't think it's better per se...

I just think both do entirely different things.

[daves]

I can't pick one or the other.

I play BM with real rosters and love the quickness in playing months at a time.

OOTP is MUCH MUCH deeper, so I go much slower and I play with fictional players.. but I don't think it's better per se...

I just think both do entirely different things.

Valid point! Though they are both baseball games, the similarities tend to end there. if you want depth and a lot of options, OOTP, if you just want to play, Mogul.

[koolzach1]

I actually like play with real players, so...

BM 2009 by a lot!

[MizzouRah]

Valid point! Though they are both baseball games, the similarities tend to end there. if you want depth and a lot of options, OOTP, if you just want to play, Mogul.

Agreed..

[CatKnight]

Uhm...they have real players included with the game.

As for time differential, on my current computer, autoplaying etc. etc., it takes BM 2m04s to complete a year. It takes OOTP 3m13s. BM's faster, but still not bad.

[Arctic Blast]

I can't pick one or the other.

I play BM with real rosters and love the quickness in playing months at a time.

OOTP is MUCH MUCH deeper, so I go much slower and I play with fictional players.. but I don't think it's better per se...

I just think both do entirely different things.

Upon giving this some thought, I tend to agree with you, Mizzou. I don't really understand this need to declare that something's BETTER. Who cares? They're very different games, which, in my opinion is a GOOD thing, that are aiming to do different things. Do I currently have an OOTP preference? Yes. That doesn't mean that, a month or two from now, I'm not going to say "Y'know, I kinda wanna play something simpler for awhile." and pick up BM.

I mean, are we going to do this stuff ALL OVER AGAIN when DDS : BB releases, since I'm pretty sure a few people will probably be curious, and give it a shot? Why does it matter so much to people that one thing is 'better'?

[knicks0929]

'Fraid it is. BBM still blows up after 4-5 seasons. OOTP almost never blows it up, and on the off chance it does it recovers 2-3 years later.


Can you explain what you mean, that BBM blows up after 4-5 years? I'm not looking to defend BM, I'm just honestly curious. I know there are competitive balance issues sometimes (and some other issues), but I've never felt the game really gets wildly out of whack, and I've played 30-40 year games.


Oh, and amen to the people pointing out that the games are designed for different purposes.

[HoustonGM]

Can you explain what you mean, that BBM blows up after 4-5 years? I'm not looking to defend BM, I'm just honestly curious. I know there are competitive balance issues sometimes (and some other issues), but I've never felt the game really gets wildly out of whack, and I've played 30-40 year games.


Oh, and amen to the people pointing out that the games are designed for different purposes.
CatKnight is referring to the competitive balance issues. It "blows" up in that the Noll-Scully ratios, which measure the league's competitive balance, reach really bad levels (bad as in, very unbalanced league).

[CatKnight]

Hey, knicks:

This is definitely not the place to bring up an old topic, but Houston hit it on the head.

It depends - sometimes it doesn't happen, but more often than not if you play too many consecutive seasons then the league's parity falls apart. The AI is notably bad at helping poor teams recover, and once a 'good' team gets on a roll the AI by itself isn't good at stopping it.

From a recent 20 year run I made, the best team went 121-41. Well...that's good enough for the second best winning percentage all time trailing only the '06 Cubs. There was also a 120-42 performance seven years previous, and in other games I've seen it as high as 127 (without player input.) In all, on RL average in twenty years ONE team should break .700 ball for a season. It happened five times in my 20 year run.

Similarly, the worst team in this run was 43-119, good enough to tie for 7th worst with the '03 Tigers. That wouldn't be so troubling if I didn't routinely see 36-38 win teams...which would be 2nd/3rd worst.

Again, in RL a team should drop below .300 ball about once in 20 years. In the run I'm looking at it happened six times.

In that same run, there are several instances where 7-10 teams have more than/less than 100 wins. That's simply too many.

Note that this gets much worse if your game passes over the year 1969. The AI is simply unable to deal with four expansion teams simultaneously and make them competitive. In a run I did from 1901-2020 posted in dynasties, the league did alright until '69...then collapsed. NONE of the expansion teams, including the '61-'62 set, ever won a pennant.

Now don't misunderstand me: I love BM. However when it comes to long term play, with some rare and lucky exceptions, the leagues just don't stay realistically balanced. OOTP's do.

[ohms_law]

OOTP's do.

From a Quick-Start game I just started, using all default settings and auto-played:
16889

(I just added Portland and Vancouver, and moved Texas to the AL central. the season was simulated with the correct teams and alignment, though)
All I'm saying here is that I wouldn't be so quick to give OOTP a pass on competitive balance.

[daves]

Look I like Mogul a lot. I buy mogul every year and sometimes OOTP. But evey year when I had both, mogul was the one I played more often. OOTP9 is a lot better than previous OOTP's. This version I created a 4 game season with 64 teams from the past 32 World series and am having a single elimination with all 64 teams. I can feel the heat during every game.

But I don't want Mogul to change and be anything like OOTP. I'd just like to edit the playoff series lengths. That's all.

like many have mentioned in this thread, the two games are just plain different and if they were too alike one would cease to exist. So I hope mogul does not attempt to be like OOTP.

[CatKnight]

I would. Comparatively speaking.

Recall on the OOTP9 thread elsewhere I discussed a 20 year sim from 1968-1987.

That sim is now up through 2008.

In 41 years, the most wins by one team was 113.
The least wins was 44. That was the only team to fall below .300 ball.

The following expansion clubs won a Pennant:
1961-62: Angels, Senators/Rangers, Mets, Astros
1969: Padres
1977: Mariners
1993: Marlins
1998: Rays

So...that's eight teams better than happened in 'Blitz.' Most of the others have at least taken their division.

Five times (the last in 2004), NO team broke 100 wins or losses.

In those 41 years, 41 teams broke 100 wins, 42 broke 100 losses, for an average of 1 and 1. Slightly high...but comparatively better.

Your attachment is interesting in that six teams broke that mark. Twice in my runs five teams did...and within two years they were okay again.

Again, BM has its great points, or I wouldn't still be here...but no, league parity isn't one of them.

You've argued - and I don't disagree - that OOTP has unrealistic ways of getting there. Well....teams with 125 wins and losses aren't realistic either. Which one is more damaging potentially to a long term dynasty?

[ohms_law]

My main point is that neither seems to be better than the other, really. Each game has different strengths and weaknesses, but I wouldn't tag OOTP as being that much better in terms of "Competitive Balance" than Mogul is. Their's just different weaknesses... and for me personally, I think that I prefer the weaknesses in Mogul. Their easier to work around, if nothing else.

The only caveat to what I'm saying above are that I obviously know Mogul much better than I know OOTP. However, it's blatantly obvious that Mogul is also much easier to work with then OOTP is. I don't really think that OOTP is "deeper" than Mogul either, it's much more detailed, but I don't think that has the same meaning as depth. OOTP is much more Micro-management oriented.

[rwd59]

BBM. OOTP costs 15 more dollars for a "license" so you can play more than 1 season.

What in the world are you talking about?

[MizzouRah]

OOTP has a great fictional quickstart put together by forum member Skydog (Ben over at the FOF forums).

He's a text simmer like all of us, and in 6 seasons so far, he's yet to make the playoffs.

I'm going to have to check that out.

I just find both games equally fun.. add MLB The Show on my psp.. I'm in baseball gaming heaven this year. :)

[boomboom]

Ohms, OOTP competitive balance is far superior than that of Moguls.

oh btw: I voted for Mogul because it is a lot fun fun than OOTP, ootp is more work than fun. :) :cool:

So basically the fun factor wins out with me :D

[RickD]

BM is winning the poll though!

[ohms_law]

I don't disagree, but it's more competitive only because it uses crutches. It's artificial.
The fun factor thing is really the key for me too, though. Mogul really is just plain fun, and your right that OOTP requires quite a bit of work.

[MizzouRah]

BM definitely has that "fun" factor.

I haven't played ootp enough yet with v9 to get that yet. There is so much going on, I spend hours just looking at things instead of playing. I find it overwhelming at times.

[CatKnight]

Oh, I agree for the most part. BM *is* a lot easier to get into, hands down. More fun? Hm...depends on what mood I'm in, but I'll give you that one. I disagree OOTP's more work than fun, but it's not as intuitive. You have to hunt harder to find the stats you want and get things done.

On the other hand, I find making up for the AI by playing with settings and still watching everything like a hawk...very trying. Which, as is well recorded, is my one big beef with BM. If someone (anyone!?) could get the AI and/or finances to cooperate with long term play, I would happily shut the he** up.

Certainly it's MUCH more fun to watch a game in BM - though OOTP took a few strong steps forward this year they still trail badly.

Regarding OOTP's depth of detail...bah. I ignore it. It's very easy to rip out entire levels of play if you don't want to deal with it.

I think a lot of readers are on the right track that the two games are currently different, and turning it into a "either/or" contest isn't necessary... but I'll note a lot of the 'suggestions' we see, especially regarding minors and roster manipulation, would definitely be taking us towards OOTP's camp.

[ohms_law]

but I'll note a lot of the 'suggestions' we see, especially regarding minors and roster manipulation, would definitely be taking us towards OOTP's camp.
But then please also note the cautionary warnings that are often accompany the suggestions that you're talking about.
;)

[MichelleWie]

BM is winning the poll though!

Well this is the BM forum. I don't think that's any surprise. If you posted a poll on the ootp website you would get results the other way around.

[dbacksjosh]

Well this is the BM forum. I don't think that's any surprise. If you posted a poll on the ootp website you would get results the other way around.

good point!

[ohms_law]

...that actually needed to be pointed out?
:eek:

[belial]

But then please also note the cautionary warnings that are often accompany the suggestions that you're talking about.
;)

You mean the doomsayers? I ignore those people's views.

[belial]

...that actually needed to be pointed out?
:eek:

Why not? :boggled:

[HoustonGM]

Why not? :boggled:
It should be obvious that if you poll a Baseball Mogul site, most people will prefer Baseball Mogul, and if you poll an OOTP site, most people will prefer OOTP. That's all ohms was saying - that it's something so obvious that it shouldn't need to be "pointed out".

[belial]

I figured people would be unbiased and educated enough to answer the question correctly and subjectively. Your logic is everyone will prefer BM?

[HoustonGM]

I figured people would be unbiased and educated enough to answer the question correctly and subjectively. Your logic is everyone will prefer BM?
Um, no. My logic is that the majority of people that post on the Baseball Mogul forums are going to prefer Baseball Mogul, and the majority of people that post on the OOTP forums are going to prefer OOTP. It's um...common sense?

If you go to a Yankees blog, the majority of people there will like the Yankees. If you go to a Mariners blog, the majority of people there will like the Mariners. If you go to a horror convention, the majority of people there will like horror movies. If you go to a rally for Barack Obama, the majority of people there will like Barack Obama. If you go to a Baseball Mogul forum, the majority of people there will prefer Baseball Mogul. Is this a difficult concept?

[belial]

That's not what you said first.

[HoustonGM]

That's not what you said first.
Oh. I just went back and read it, and I made a mistake. It should say:


It should be obvious that if you poll a Baseball Mogul site, most people will prefer Baseball Mogul, and if you poll an OOTP site, most people will prefer OOTP.

Sorry.

[belial]

I don't know what to believe anymore. I like both, but OOTP is by far superior. BM is more of an arcade style game which can be fun at times.

[RedsoxRockies]

neither are arcade style games

[belial]

BM is more of 'fun' get in it and play thing. It's far from a simulator though. It's like comparing playing California Rush or playing Gran Turismo 4.

[RedsoxRockies]

Its a simulator...

[boomboom]

I don't know what to believe anymore. I like both, but OOTP is by far superior. BM is more of an arcade style game which can be fun at times.


neither are arcade style games


BM is more of 'fun' get in it and play thing. It's far from a simulator though. It's like comparing playing California Rush or playing Gran Turismo 4.


Its a simulator...


lol

[dbacksjosh]

Um, no. My logic is that the majority of people that post on the Baseball Mogul forums are going to prefer Baseball Mogul, and the majority of people that post on the OOTP forums are going to prefer OOTP. It's um...common sense?



If it is common sense then why even question if it needed to be pointed out?

[boomboom]

If it is common sense then why even question if it needed to be pointed out?
This is stupid.

[HoustonGM]

Huh?

[Arctic Blast]

I'm just going to put in my two cents, here...

AAAAUUUUUUGGGGHHHHHHH!

Thanks.

[RedsoxRockies]

Your two cents seems quite rich

[RedsoxRockies]

Huh?

Yea it seems this thread has had a few confusing turns and stuff

[dbacksjosh]

lol

[Arctic Blast]

Yea it seems this thread has had a few confusing turns and stuff

I recommend bellowing with rage...you'll feel better! :D