10.24 Unrealistic double plays [Fixed 10.25B]

[RAW]

I'm still "bugged" by some unrealistic plays that occur often in play. The first is the 6-5-3 double play with runners on 1st and 2nd. As I recall, a team attempted that in last years "real" World Series or playoffs and it was reported that such a play hasn't even been attempted since the 1940s. The normal play would be 6-4-3, short to second to first.

The other play is really two unrealistic plays..outfielders, and, to some extent, infielders, drop way too many fly balls for errors, it happens at least once or twice in every game I play...while outfielders never make errors on throws, which is much more common than dropping a fly ball.

[ohms_law]

What's really so unrealistic about a 6-5-3 though? Runner on second going for third on what turns out to be a grounder to the shortstop. Shortstop tosses the ball to the third baseman, who pivots and fires to first.
That's a pretty spectacular play for the third baseman, but it's hardly unrealistic. I'll have to look it up, but I'm almost certain that it's not that rare of a play.

As for the errors issue, I agree with you there. We've talked about this before, haven't we?

[Dwright5]

They must be playing the extreme shift and the 3rd baseman is covering second base?:)

[jcbarr]

No, SS fields the ball, tosses to the third baseman to get the lead runner, third baseman then throws to first for the force, 6-5-3. I don't see why that is so unrealistic. We did that a few times in highschool that I can remember.

[ohms_law]

Yea, there are runners on 1st and 2nd, so it's a force out situation at any base. Getting the lead runner instead of the guy in the middle is a fielder's choice is all. It's not a bad decision by any means. I know I'd rather have a runner on second than a runner on 3rd.

[RAW]

jcbarr - You may have done that in high school, or little league, but it doesn't happen in the major leagues..they don't try it because to odds of success are much poorer than the 6-4-3 turn. See my comment about not being done since the 1940s.
dwwright5 - In your case, it would still force the runner at 2nd, leaving a runner on 3rd. In our game the DP 6-5-3 ends up with a runner on 2nd.

[ohms_law]

See my comment about not being done since the 1940s.
Do you have any references?

[RAW]

ohms - Only what I heard last fall from the TV guys during the playoffs.

[Jeff Olsen]

Garret Anderson hit into a 6-5-3 DP on 3 July 2006 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SEA/SEA200607030.shtml).

[Jeff Olsen]

Barry Bonds hit into a 6-5-3 DP (and a 3-5-4) on 6 May 2006 (http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/gamecenter/recap/MLB_20060506_SF@PHI).

[RAW]

In both instances, the 3rd baseman was covering 2nd. Notice in the Anderson DP there was only one runner, Guerrero, on base, 1st, when the dp occurred. In the Bonds case, although the play by play is not listed, it does say the infield was overshifted, so, presumably the 3rd baseman was covering 2nd.
In our game this occurs only when runners are on 1st and 2nd and the lead runner is thrown out at 3rd and the batter at 1st. Again, I believe it is an unrealistic play.

[TacoBoy]

How the heck does a 3-5-4 work??? groundball to first who throws to 3rd to get the lead runner than throws to second, batter safe at first?? I would imagine you would have to have some incredibly slow runners involved. Or maybe ground ball to 1st basemen who throws to the 3rd baseman covering second who throws to the 2nd basemen who is covering 1st??

[RAW]

Again, overshifted infield, ball hit to first baseman, throws to 2nd where 3rd baseman is covering and back to 1st where 2nd baseman came in to cover, doubling up Bonds, who was limping down to 1st, or dogging it like he often does (just kidding about Barry B.)

[Jeff Olsen]

In our game this occurs only when runners are on 1st and 2nd and the lead runner is thrown out at 3rd and the batter at 1st. Again, I believe it is an unrealistic play.The game doesn't do overshifts so it evens out.

[RAW]

Jeff O - Not sure what you mean by "evens out". A 6-5-3 double play that gets the runner at 3rd and the batter leaves a runner on 2nd with two outs, where a 6-4-3 dp with runners on 1st & 2nd, leaves a runner on 3rd with two outs. In this game, the 6-5-3 dp only occurs with runners on 1st and 2nd.

[rockiesfan4ever]

OK. Ball hit in the hole. SS gets there and instead of throwing to first goes to third who fires one over to first. 6-5-3

[ohms_law]

OK. Ball hit in the hole. SS gets there and instead of throwing to first goes to third who fires one over to first. 6-5-3

Yea, exactly. I don't understand what the big deal is with that.

[ltt]

Yea, exactly. I don't understand what the big deal is with that.

I think he's jjust saying it happens too often in the game.

If it's happening a dozen or more times a season in the game, but it happens once or twice every 5 years irl, then the game isn't accurately modeling what it's trying to model.

I don't see the problem with pointing it out.

[ohms_law]

There isn't a problem with pointing it out at all. The only "problem" is that noone has actually said "The 6-5-3 double play is happening on average X times per year, and it occurs on average Y times per year in real life."

The only piece of info that has been offered is that some announcer said that it hasn't occurred since 1940. To be blunt, I don't believe it. I'll have to look it up myself eventually now, but I'm not the one who's bringing up this issue.

[jcbarr]

No way that it hasn't happened since 1940, I would have a hard time believing that.

I don't see that it would be all that uncommon, sure it isn't the most often seen double play but I'm sure that Jeter has turned at least one or two of those in his career.

[ohms_law]

Exactly. And, I could easily believe that it is occurring too often in Mogul. However, without some actual number showing that it is, this is all really just speculation.

[waffer]

How the heck does a 3-5-4 work??? groundball to first who throws to 3rd to get the lead runner than throws to second, batter safe at first?? I would imagine you would have to have some incredibly slow runners involved. Or maybe ground ball to 1st basemen who throws to the 3rd baseman covering second who throws to the 2nd basemen who is covering 1st??

Runners on first and second, batter bunts with the first baseman charging, he fires to third, then to second. Hence 3-5-4.

[TacoBoy]

Runners on first and second, batter bunts with the first baseman charging, he fires to third, then to second. Hence 3-5-4.

I suppose, but it's pretty rare you see someone bunting with runners on 1st and second, unless the pitcher is up. Plus you figure runner on 1st is already leading off the bag, he knows a bunt is coming so he's running on contact. From the time the 1st basemen fields the ball throws across the field to 3rd who then has to throw to 2nd. The runner on first would have to be unbelievably slow to get out in that situation.

[RAW]

OK guys, it's my problem, (the 6-5-3 dp) I just think it is unrealistic as I don't see it happening in the majors, or college. It is an easier play to go 6-4-3 for several reasons..the tough pivot the 3b must make to throw to 1st, the longer throw from 3rd to 1st than from 2nd to 1st, the longer lead a runner on 2nd gets making his run to 3rd shorter. Unless the SS makes the play deep in the hole and the most logical try is for a force out at 3rd, the SS will almost always go to 2nd to try to turn the more practical DP. I'll keep up with this 6-5-3 dp during my play of this season and try to see how often this happens in BBM, if someone could try to find out how often it has happened in the majors last year (or tell me how to find out).
Honestly, I've been watching baseball, live and on TV since the 1950s (yes, I'm that old) and I have never seen a 6-5-3 double play with runners on 1st and 2nd. I have seen a 6-3-5 dp with only a runner holding 2nd, then trying to advance after the throw to 1st and being thrown out after overrunning (sliding) the bag at 3rd and being tagged..really odd.

[Jeff Olsen]

Jeff O - Not sure what you mean by "evens out". Both cases result in a double play and, if there weren't any outs to begin with, a runner in scoring position.

[SF_Giants]

maybe with the 6-5-3 the shortstop didn't have a play at 2nd so we went to 3rd and the 3rd baseman had a great arm and tossed it to 1st(or a slow runner)?

[RAW]

Ok, I can't convince you guys that its an unrealistic play. I'll just pretend its a dp 3rd to 1st, and ignore the dialog that says "6"-5-3. I can't figure out, though, how to ignore all those outfield fielding errors "dropped fly/line drives". I know in the final year end stats, the outfield errors are probably accurate to RL, but it is still my contention that most OF errors occur on bad throws and misplays after a hit.

[ohms_law]

I can't figure out, though, how to ignore all those outfield fielding errors "dropped fly/line drives". I know in the final year end stats, the outfield errors are probably accurate to RL, but it is still my contention that most OF errors occur on bad throws and misplays after a hit.
That I certainly agree with.

[jcbarr]

Ok, I can't convince you guys that its an unrealistic play. I'll just pretend its a dp 3rd to 1st, and ignore the dialog that says "6"-5-3. I can't figure out, though, how to ignore all those outfield fielding errors "dropped fly/line drives". I know in the final year end stats, the outfield errors are probably accurate to RL, but it is still my contention that most OF errors occur on bad throws and misplays after a hit.


6-5-3

SS to 3B to 1B

So that is a DP thrid to first...

[RAW]

Yea, without the SS involved..3rd baseman gets ground ball near the bag, tags it and throws to 1st. That's realistic and I'll just pretend that's what happened so it won't bother me.
By the way, in tonights Astros game...runners on 1st and 2nd, ground ball back to the pitcher and he went 2nd to 1st, not 3rd to 1st, as it (the 2d to 1st play) has the best chance of succeeding over the throw to 3rd and then to 1st.

[TacoBoy]

Yea, without the SS involved..3rd baseman gets ground ball near the bag, tags it and throws to 1st. That's realistic and I'll just pretend that's what happened so it won't bother me.
By the way, in tonights Astros game...runners on 1st and 2nd, ground ball back to the pitcher and he went 2nd to 1st, not 3rd to 1st, as it (the 2d to 1st play) has the best chance of succeeding over the throw to 3rd and then to 1st.

Yeah I've been watching for one since you posted but I haven't seen or read or heard about one yet.

[ohms_law]

By the way, in tonights Astros game...runners on 1st and 2nd, ground ball back to the pitcher and he went 2nd to 1st, not 3rd to 1st, as it (the 2d to 1st play) has the best chance of succeeding over the throw to 3rd and then to 1st.

That's a pitcher though. I'd absolutely expect a pitcher to make the safest play possible, since they are pitchers. Shortstops are usually a tad better fielders than pitcher's are though.

[nuzzy62]

I have to agree with RAW on this. Way too many plays - it does happen in the majors, but on a very infrequent basis and most of the time it does happen is on the overshift - which isn't how it's portrayed in the game.

[TacoBoy]

Yeah I agree. I have been checkin everyday the MLB box scores and play by play and their hasn't been one since this has been posted. Which is about a weeks time. Which adds up to alot of MLB games played. I know it has happened before. But it happens frequently in PBP. I'm seeeing it every few games with my team in PBP.Which is alot more frequently than it should.

[HoustonGM]

I'm NOT seeing this frequently in PBP, and I've played up to July 30th so far...I mean, I can't say for sure that I havne't seen it, but I don't recall seeing it. I will keep a better eye out for it now though.

It's also worth noting that I have DBP's down -30%, which Im now upping to -20%

[ohms_law]

The thing is, I don't deny that there could be or is a problem. Never have. All I'm saying is, provide some for of proof. Saying that some sportscaster said during a World Series game that something "never happens", is hardly the basis to make a real judgment off of.

[HoustonGM]

Never make a judgment off anything any sportscaster ever says. Period.

[RickD]

AMEN to that.....of course Buck is pretty reliable!

[ohms_law]

well, don't make judgments off of what sportscasters say alone. It's worth looking into and finding the actual number at least.

[RAW]

Sorry, guys, didn't mean to make a big deal out of the 6-5-3 dp, it really makes little to do with the game. The big deal is those "fielding errors by the __outfielder" (that is always a dropped fly ball in BBM), ugh. Give me "single to right, and runners advance on a throwing error by the rightfielder, or "double to center, runner scores from first on throwing error by centerfielder" Things like that occur in rl much more often than a dropped fly ball, although this happens, too.

[scooterbracy]

couple of things here...

one, the play raw is referring to (i think) is one of the tiger pitcher errors in which zumaya made a throwing error in an attempted 1-5-3 double play.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/sportsscope/2006/10/the_rare_153_do.html

the second, sadly comes from wikipedia...near the bottom of the page it has a frequency of certain double plays, and the 6-5-3 isn't even listed...which makes one assume that it probably isn't very common.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_play

hope this begins to help.

[ohms_law]

This thread is the perfect example of why you should create threads with a singular topic. The main complaint that RAW had really has to do with outfielder errors, but he threw in the 6-5-3 double play in as well because it seemed odd. Now, the outfielder errors topic is completely lost.

RAW, I'd create another thread specifically about the outfielder errors if I were you. Better yet, find you're old topic on the subject from last year and dredge it up.

[JustinM]

Heh. I just got a double play and wondered why there was someone left on second base. It came up in the scoring as 1-5-3. :rolleyes:

[RAW]

Hummmmmm....Never seen that in rl either, but guess it could happen, maybe if Yad Molina was the hitter.

[learning2fly_24]

Although I don't know that it's been since the 40's since a true 6-5-3 DB was turned...I can guarentee it doesn't happen more than once a year. It's nearly an impossible turn. I know that in High School I've NEVER seen one...it just doesn't work. Here's why.....

The only reason the SS would EVER go to third is if the play was deep in the hole. The SS and 3B would both have to do 180 degree pivots to make their throws...and YOU WILL NEVER get the runner it first...(I don't care who it is) especially considering the ball was hit DEEP IN THE HOLE to begin with...which in most cases you can't get the runner at first alone...let alone double him up. I with RAW on this one....if anything it would be more accurate to NEVER see one in this game than to see any.

[jcbarr]

Or, the 3B is guarding the line, SS is playing straight up. Ball is hit to the right side of the SS, he fields does a simple flip to the 3B and the 3B then throws to first.

I have turned that on my own highschool team before. No 180 degree pivots, unless of course your SS is left handed...

3B catches the ball does a little shuffle backwards and to his left slightly and then makes the throw.

Granted that isn't an easy throw for the 3B to make and he has to be a pretty talented guy to make it, but it can and does happen. Maybe not at the major league level, but it does.

I agree that you don't see it often if at all in the Majors, but I don't understand why people are having such a hard time grasping the concept of how this can physically happen and that it is doable.

Keep in mind though that the situation has to be almost perfect for this to happen, and that is why it doesn't. It's not that it is impossible to pull off, its just that everything has to line up right for it to work, and well know how that goes.

[HoustonGM]

Jeff Olsen has already posted two box scores/recaps from 2006 that include a 6-5-3 Double Play.

From July 3, 2006 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SEA/SEA200607030.shtml), 2nd inning: G Anderson Ground Ball Double Play: SS-3B-1B

From May 6, 2006 (http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/gamecenter/recap/MLB_20060506_SF@PHI): Facing another overshifted infield, Bonds grounded into a 6-5-3 double play in the third.

In the bonds case, the third basemen was covering second due to the shift, but I doubt a shift was on in the Garret Anderson case.

[RAW]

I feel I must point out that the 2 dps Houston makes reference to involved the putout of the runner at 2nd and the batter at 1st, both occured on overshifted infields with no runner on 2nd. There has been no postings of dps with runners on 1st & 2nd, with the SS getting the runner from 2nd at 3rd, and then, the 3rd baseman getting the batter at 1st, which occurs in BBM.

[HoustonGM]

I feel I must point out that the 2 dps Houston makes reference to involved the putout of the runner at 2nd and the batter at 1st, both occured on overshifted infields with no runner on 2nd. There has been no postings of dps with runners on 1st & 2nd, with the SS getting the runner from 2nd at 3rd, and then, the 3rd baseman getting the batter at 1st, which occurs in BBM.
I didn't catch that for the Garrett Anderson one. Thanks for pointing it out.

[JustinM]

Just had another 1-5-3 DP. This time it ended the inning so it hardly mattered which player was left on base, but still. Oy.

[HoustonGM]

I think this can be fixed by simply decreasing those types of DPs, while increasing DPs up the middle. That way, the same amount of double plays happen overall, but they're the correct kind.

Far too oftne I see a guy hit a ball up the middle with a runner on first, and only ONE of them get out. It happens in real life, but NOT the majority of the time. In the game, it seems to happen way more than a double play happens.

[ohms_law]

You know, I vaguely do remember it being said somewhere that DP's are somewhat random. Meaning, the fact that DP's happen occurs at the right rate, but the players involved are basically randomly chosen. I've never really payed it much attention, but if someone were interested enough to dig up some actual numbers and do a comparison to the numbers that occur in Mogul...

[RAW]

Just recently had two 6-4-1 dps occur in games, really thought it strange, and went to fielding record and box score, and both times they credited the firstbaseman with the putout, not the pitcher. Next time I get one of those 6-5-3 dps, I'm going to check if its really credited that way in the box and records.

[Yama]

The potential for a 6-5-3 DP happens all too often for me. It always comes up to where there is a guy on 1st and 2nd and the throw goes to third, and I assume they are unable to turn the DP. I just realized that's what's been happening.

[Pavelb1]

TOP OF THE NINTH
Dave Chalk was hit by a pitch. <--1>
Gary Pettis singled into right field. <-21>
Dave Collins lined out to left. <-21>
Jim Fuller singled up the middle. <321>
Bruce Bochte grounded to the pitcher for a double play (1-1-3). <32->


Did the pitcher field the putout at first himself....catch the runner between first and second in a rundown somehow....bounce it off the runners head back to himself and throw him out at first?

[Dwright5]

I imagine the pitcher charged a weak grounder, stepped on the plate and threw to first. Where the catcher was I have no idea. Or the word "grounder" should've been "line drive" I've seen times where the in-game text calls are wrong during 1-pitch gameplay. 1 for the pitcher putout, 1 for pitcher assist, 3 for 1b putout. He didn't have to bounce it off anybody.

[BINGLEBOP]

Seen It.

[RAW]

Could only be two ways:
1. Dribbler in front of the plate, pitcher fields it steps on home, then throws to 1st, or;
2. Line drive or pop up to pitcher who doubles up the runner at 1st.
Either way it can't be 1-1-3 as pitcher cannot get an assist to himself, should just be 1-3, with pitcher getting put out and one assist.

[ohms_law]

Either way it can't be 1-1-3 as pitcher cannot get an assist to himself, should just be 1-3, with pitcher getting put out and one assist.
1-1-3 is just an alternative notation for a 1-3 double play. All double plays in Mogul (as most DP's in retrosheet PBP data) must have three entries for the players involved.

[RAW]

Oh. OK.

[Yama]

One strange "out" I find in this game, is when the runner grounds into a 6-4-3 or 4-6-3 DP with the bases loaded but the runner on 3B doesn't go home. Now correct me if I am wrong, but unless you have two David Well's (one 1st and the other at bat) there is no way the SS would have enough time to look back the runner at 3rd and have time to turn the DP.

[HoustonGM]

I've never seen this. I noticed that the PBP text doesn't say "a run scored" but everytime I've had a bases loaded double play, the run is added to the total and the player isn't on 3rd base anymore.

[derekmor]

The old "official" scoring would have:

dribbler to plate, pitcher gets force out at home, throws to first for DP: 1-H-3

Line drive to pitcher, throws to first for DP: 1-3

The bases were (and still are, as far as I know, although I haven't seen an official scorers' book in *years*) listed as A-B-C-H and used as aids to indicate ground ball putouts: An unassisted DP, SS to first base: 6-B-3. Unassisted putout at 1B: 3-A. First baseman to pitcher covering 1B: 3-1A (because the pitcher doesn't have his own "base"). Line-drives were indicated with "L", so the line drive double play SS-1B would be L6-3. The unassisted triple play: L6-B-A!

Derek

[ohms_law]

I'm almost certain that Mogul basically uses the retrosheet system, which detailed here: http://www.retrosheet.org/eventfile.htm

Here's one relevant portion:
$(%)$ $$(%)$ Events of this form are used to code grounded into double plays.

play,7,0,backw001,11,FBX,64(1)3/GDP/G6
indicates a grounded into double play. The parenthesized 1 indicates the base runner on first was the initial out on the play. The GDP modifier is followed by a another / and a hit type and location.

play,8,1,smito001,22,BFCBX,4(1)3/G4/GDP
An unassisted ground ball out by the second baseman starts this double play.

[carload]

So shallow that he's the pivot man on this double play.

(Feel free to change the thread title, but I just couldn't resist. :) )

[carload]

And then there's this 4-6-6 DP. Maybe the shortstop threw the ball to first base, then ran to the base and caught it. I saw it in a cartoon once.

[JustinM]

*waits for someone to come and try to explain away how a 6-8-3 DP is actually feasible*

:p

[Velocity3107]

I would have to assume it was some sort of crazy lefty shift where the second baseman was out of position to cover the base, so the center fielder sprinted in and made the play

[JustinM]

The game doesn't do crazy shifts, and that play would end up being 5-6-3 anyway.

[Yama]

Yeah I noticed that too when the run scores on a DP but it doesn't show up in the text. (probably because it isn't an RBI)

[echrisl]

Wow, 6-8-3 certainly paints an interesting picture.

As for the 4-6-6, I recall someone saying that the game always records three values for double plays, so it really ought to just be interpreted as a 4-6 DP.

[ohms_law]

There.

[RAW]

Just had another of those odd dps:
Runner on 1st, grounder (it seems) to SS..double play
6-3-3
Guess the runner on 1st decided to go back to 1st and was tagged out by the 1st baseman.
Sure, it could have been line drive to short and double up runner at 1st, but usually the dialog says "runner on 1st doubled off", or words to that effect.

[ohms_law]

Just had another of those odd dps:
Runner on 1st, grounder (it seems) to SS..double play
6-3-3
Guess the runner on 1st decided to go back to 1st and was tagged out by the 1st baseman.
Sure, it could have been line drive to short and double up runner at 1st, but usually the dialog says "runner on 1st doubled off", or words to that effect.

run down... ?

[JustinM]

A run down would have more elements to it...say, 6-3-4-3 or something. Maybe not in the game's retrosheet language, but in real scoring.

I'd say RAW's hypothesis that the runner on first did indeed turn around and head back to the bag, perhaps thinking the shortstop had caught the ball on the fly. I have no idea if the baserunners have that kind of AI, though. :)

[jcbarr]

There are plenty of ways to explain it in real life, but from within Mogul I would have to say that it was a run down. You have seen where Mogul always includes three players even if the double play onlin involved two. I would say that this is a similar instance in where the play actually involved more than that, but the game only recorded the players that actually made the outs...just a though.

[HoustonGM]

Uh.

6-3-3 is incredibly realistic. You're forgetting that Mogul always uses three numbers for double plays.

Runner on first. Groundball to shortstop. Shortstop steps on second, throws to first. Double play. 6-3-3.

[JustinM]

Hm. I'd have expected that to be 6-6-3. How does it decide which position to show twice in a two-element double play?

[ohms_law]

...now I find that I'm starting to get slightly uncomfortable with this discussion. I've never seen a double play only listed with two players, and I know that retrosheet does use that format for some DP calls. However, I don't really know that Mogul uses that exact style of DP call. It's a slight assumption on my part, but apparently my word is like law around here now or something...

[HoustonGM]

...now I find that I'm starting to get slightly uncomfortable with this discussion. I've never seen a double play only listed with two players, and I know that retrosheet does use that format for some DP calls. However, I don't really know that Mogul uses that exact style of DP call. It's a slight assumption on my part, but apparently my word is like law around here now or something...

I've never seen it with just two numbers either. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that Mogul always uses 3 numbers. I'm not using your word as law, but I give the benefit of the doubt to the game. There's certainly some outrageous doubleplays that happen, but 6-3-3 is perfectly explainable as a shortstop to first basemen.

[RAW]

Just to continue the discussion, Houston, other than the run down, or, as I earlier mentioned, the runner returning to 1st and being tagged out, can you come up with any other ways it might occur?

[jcbarr]

Yeah I am pretty sure that the way that you explained it, it would have shown as 6-6-3

[HoustonGM]

Just to continue the discussion, Houston, other than the run down, or, as I earlier mentioned, the runner returning to 1st and being tagged out, can you come up with any other ways it might occur?
The only other way I can think of, which I think is what likely occurred is a grounder to the shortstop, he fields it, tags second, and throws to first.

Sure, that maybe SHOULD be recorded as 6-6-3, i don't know, but really, that's just a cosmetic thing then, as you can safely assume that what I just explained is what happened.

Obviously, the double plays that include like the center fielder and stuff, those need to be looked into.

[Rovy]

It's too late for me to go through all the pages and check....

Has anyone actually checked the Box Score with the Recap to see if the numbers are agreable? I just had a game where the Recap said "David Espinosa grounded to short for a double play (6-1-3)" (and the bases image showing a home/first out (runners were left on 2 and 3)). However, when checking the Box Score, it said that my SS, 2nd, and 1st basemen were involved in the DP, and NOT the pitcher at all. (Of course, this doesn't match up with the #'s NOR the TYPE of DP.)

This is probably just a section of code that's got too much randomness in it, and coming up with unrealistic #'s.

[RAW]

Yea, get a lot of those 6-4-1, but just havn't checked to see if the pitcher actually gets the PO or not..Probably right about the code business.

[Rovy]

Yea, get a lot of those 6-4-1, but just havn't checked to see if the pitcher actually gets the PO or not..Probably right about the code business.

This one's quite realistic. After all, pitchers are taught on grounders to cover first.... 6-4-3 is MORE realistic, but that's neither here nor there

[RAW]

Yes, Rovy, pitchers are taught to break to cover first on balls hit to the right side, that may be fielded by the 1st baseman. Rarely, however, do pitchers cover first on grounders to the SS (left side of the infield). Really makes no difference in BBM who gets the PO at first, just thought it strange, but, certainly not as strange as your 6-1-3 DP..that's a real head stratcher.

[ohms_law]

Tell ya what, Next time that you see one of those double plays, post the box and the recaps from the game, and the player scouting cards/game log for the players involved if you can. Let's try to figure out exactly what's going on.

Y'all have me suspicious that what's reported in the game log (and therefore in PBP mode) may not be accurate.

[Clay Dreslough]

Tell ya what, Next time that you see one of those double plays, post the box and the recaps from the game, and the player scouting cards/game log for the players involved if you can. Let's try to figure out exactly what's going on.

Y'all have me suspicious that what's reported in the game log (and therefore in PBP mode) may not be accurate.Posting more info would definitely help. I'm 99% sure that the double play is occurring correctly, but the code that DISPLAYS the result has a bug in it.

The Mogul code only has the pitcher cover on hits to the right side. So there should be some 3-6-1 and 4-6-1 double plays, but never a 6-4-1.

Clay

[RAW]

OK, ran into this one:
Jim Landis grounded to third for a double play (4-4-3).
Box score, though, indicates the correct players involved (3b-2b-1b).

[ohms_law]

Yea, that's what I was wondering about. Clay too. Hopefully now that it's been confirmed he can find the problem.

[HoustonGM]

Seems like hes' found the problem, judging by the Fixed 10.25B tag. :)

[RAW]

Still using 10.24. Game dialog:
Wes Westrum grounded to short for a double play (6-3-3).
Box score correctly named SS-2b-1b involved, however.
No big deal, but Clay, and others, wanted it posted.

[Clay Dreslough]

Wes Westrum grounded to short for a double play (6-3-3).Thanks for the info. Just so folks know, the '6-3-3' part is what I'm pretty sure is now fixed in 10.25B. The double plays were right, but the numbers displayed in the Game Recap were getting corrupted. Basically if your second baseman OR the other teams's second baseman, was substituted for (pinch hit, pinch run etc.) before the double play, it could mess up the notation. So you'd probably all noticed that all these "bad" double plays generally occurred late in games -- not in the first inning.

Clay

[ohms_law]

ahhhh, now I get it... So, it wasn't the notation after all.
:)