"Hit and Run" should be changed to

[mr3856a]

"Strike out looking and throw-'em-out double play".

At least half the time when you put the hit and run on, the batter never swings.

[HoustonGM]

It is definitely not at least half the time. I've only had it happen to me once.

[Rongar]

"Strike out looking and throw-'em-out double play".

At least half the time when you put the hit and run on, the batter never swings.
Try "Run & hit":cool:

[JayC]

Check the skills ratings for your batter before you make the call. There's a rating specifically for hit-and-run ability. A guy who's not a good contact hitter and doesn't see the ball well will, depending on how good a job the pitcher does, not be able to it. He may strike out, or he may get frozen and not even get in a swing.

I certainly don't see anything like the problem described. I have a couple of guys on my lineup who are strong contact hitters, and put together lineups with a good OBP guy ahead of them, and use the hit and run when it makes sense to do so based on my lineup -- and find that it works pretty much the way I'd expect.

[RAW]

It's been brought up before, but, when a H&R is called, the hitter must try to put the ball in play, meaning he should swing at it 95% of the time, and more often than not, make an out. I don't think the problem in BBM is as drastic as mr3856a alleges, however, the strike out looking on a H&R does occur often. Personally, I never try it unless my batter is an 80 or better contact man. Run and hit, gives the better option to the hitter to pick a good pitch to hit, but the base runner must have good speed, because he is actually trying to steal a base.

[ohms_law]

I don't think the problem in BBM is as drastic as (insert name here) alleges, however

It rarely is...

[JayC]

meaning he should swing at it 95% of the time, and more often than not, make an out.
It'd be helpful in discussing this to know what mode of play people are using.

It's a weakness of one-pitch mode that you can't make the call at a specific point where it makes sense based on the count. I haven't been able to figure out how the AI does make the decision when this kind of call (and same with a bunt, run or hit, sac fly, or whatever) happens.

Language in the old help file says that for something like a bunt or sac fly he waits for a good pitch on which to make that attempt -- which implies that he might not in fact ever really get the chance to try. It might also be the case that on a hit and run, he waits for an advantageous count... which, then, might never come. So even when you request a hit and run, it may be that it's vetoed because of how the pitch count evolves.

I'm going to try for a while to note when I call a hit and run, and what happens in the play, then check the game log for what the pitch count was... and see if I can find a pattern.

[gocubs2]

Really? My hit + run is realistic about the contact I make

BTW--How many rounds is a Fantasty Draft?

[RAW]

It might also be the case that on a hit and run, he waits for an advantageous count... which, then, might never come. So even when you request a hit and run, it may be that it's vetoed because of how the pitch count evolves.

The H&R is called by the manager, and the hitter does not have the option of "waiting for an advantageous count". If you play in pitch by pitch mode, you can wait for that good count, but in on pitch mode you can't, so it is safe to assume that it is a good count to try the play, and the hitter must try to put the ball in play if he likes the pitch or not. If, as JayC surmises, the play is vetoed, the runner would not be off with the pitch, as he always is in BBM. I personally like the H&R and R&H in the right spot with the right hitter and base runner in place (good contact hitter, reasonably fast runner in H&R situation; good contact hitter and good base stealer in R&H).

[mr3856a]

Check the skills ratings for your batter before you make the call. There's a rating specifically for hit-and-run ability.

I always check the ratings when I'm making decisions like that. Just happened to me again - batter hit & run rating: 87, lefty batter with a contact rating of 98 against righty's.

Sssssssssssssstrike 3!!!!!!!!! :rolleyes:

[mr3856a]

It rarely is...

Nope, it just happens over and over and over, and I've only played hundreds of games in play-by-play, and only check the ratings for each specific category for what I'm trying to do.

Each time I've posted about something like this, it's only been after the billionth time it happens, and every time I get some ******** reply like this from one of you guys. I'm not doing this for my health or because I have nothing else to do, yet the response is always just a blow-off.

I'm sorry, your game is perfect. Absolutely flawless. :rolleyes:

[mr3856a]

So again, ohms_law, tell me how your game is perfect, how I'm too stupid to look up the ratings, how it must be a single case and I'm just some nagging idiot.

This is the hitter I used. How could I have expected a guy with only a 98 contact rating against righty's, a 87 hit and run rating and a 97 eye to actually swing at strike 3 with the hit & run on?

I guess I'll just have to use guys with 100 across the board.

Really. Your game is just perfect.

[mr3856a]

It'd be helpful in discussing this to know what mode of play people are using.

It's a weakness of one-pitch mode that you can't make the call at a specific point where it makes sense based on the count. I haven't been able to figure out how the AI does make the decision when this kind of call (and same with a bunt, run or hit, sac fly, or whatever) happens.

Language in the old help file says that for something like a bunt or sac fly he waits for a good pitch on which to make that attempt -- which implies that he might not in fact ever really get the chance to try. It might also be the case that on a hit and run, he waits for an advantageous count... which, then, might never come. So even when you request a hit and run, it may be that it's vetoed because of how the pitch count evolves.

I'm going to try for a while to note when I call a hit and run, and what happens in the play, then check the game log for what the pitch count was... and see if I can find a pattern.

Cool. I always play in one-pitch mode, which may have a flaw (though don't bother telling this to the creators). I just assume that if I put the hit & run on as a manager, they will do it in a favorable count. Call me crazy, but I don't have time to do each individual pitch.

I'd be interested to note if you find anything.

[HoustonGM]

Seriously, there's absolutely no need to get all snappy and defensive. The fact is that a lot of the issues brought up on the board ARE overblown.

Funny thing is, I just ran the hit and run and it ended up failing, and I've seen that just once before. I just tried it again, and ended up hitting a home run. Again, grounder to first, runner moves to second. Did it with two outs and two runners on, grounder to third.

I don't know what to tell you. As stated, I've now seen a strikeout on a hit and run just TWICE in all the games I've played. I don't call the hit and run that often, but still. Perhaps you're just getting unlucky. I don't think it's anything in the game causing it.

[mr3856a]

Seriously, there's absolutely no need to get all snappy and defensive.

Snappy and defensive? Every time I post on here I get blown off. All I'm trying to do is point out something that may be a problem others are seeing too that I have noticed happen time and time again, and all I get is some nonsense from one of the mods about how the things I bring up "rarely ever are" of any merit. You'd get snappy and defensive after a while, too.

All I'm saying is I've seen it quite often and I'm just noting it to see if others are too. If that's not the case, maybe I am just getting unlucky, and if that's the case, fine. NBD. But a blanket blowoff by a moderator is ****.

[beerchaser]

I've had this happen to me several times, although I haven't been keeping notes on it so all I have is the dreaded anecdotal evidence, i.e. "perceptions" to go on. I hardly ever use "hit and run" anymore; I use "run and hit" instead but even then the bat stays on the batter's shoulder more than it should, seems to me, even with 80+ contact hitters at the plate. Couple nights ago I did a run and hit with my 59 speed catcher on first, and the bat never left the hitter's shoulder but my catcher did get the stolen base, his first and only one of the season. I lollered.

[mr3856a]

I've had this happen to me several times, although I haven't been keeping notes on it so all I have is the dreaded anecdotal evidence, i.e. "perceptions" to go on. I hardly ever use "hit and run" anymore; I use "run and hit" instead but even then the bat stays on the batter's shoulder more than it should, seems to me, even with 80+ contact hitters at the plate. Couple nights ago I did a run and hit with my 59 speed catcher on first, and the bat never left the hitter's shoulder but my catcher did get the stolen base, his first and only one of the season. I lollered.

I've had that happen, too, where the "good" hit & run guy takes strike 3 and my roundabout 65 speed catcher is on the move from first. I wince and then... safe at second! :confused:

This makes even less sense, because as the guy didn't swing the catcher has a free shot at a slow runner, but he makes it anyway.

And that's the frustrating part, as you mention, when you get to the point where you stop using a tool that should be an integral part of the game for you as a manager. Stealing used to be the same. I'd have a guy with 98 speed and a 90+ steal rating getting pegged by a pitcher with an >80 power rating and a catcher with no arm. After a while I stopped bothering trying to steal, though this has seemingly gotten better in the last few updates of the game.

[HoustonGM]

. After a while I stopped bothering trying to steal, though this has seemingly gotten better in the last few updates of the game.
Probably because there was never a problem in the first place. Luck of the draw. I played a full season in manager mode and Jose Reyes stole 66 bases and gto caught 17 times. I'm in August in another game, and Dave Roberts has stolen 23 bases while being caught 13 times. It just happens.

[mr3856a]

Probably because there was never a problem in the first place. Luck of the draw. I played a full season in manager mode and Jose Reyes stole 66 bases and gto caught 17 times. I'm in August in another game, and Dave Roberts has stolen 23 bases while being caught 13 times. It just happens.

While that is perhaps the case, I played with Jose Reyes (coincidentally) and he got caught more than he stole, and I'm talking like 25 steals, 35 caught stealing before I finally completely gave up. And towards the end I was running only on weak pitcher-catcher combos.

[HoustonGM]

While that is perhaps the case, I played with Jose Reyes (coincidentally) and he got caught more than he stole, and I'm talking like 25 steals, 35 caught stealing before I finally completely gave up. And towards the end I was running only on weak pitcher-catcher combos.
Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. In a simulation, really anything can happen as long as it is statistically possible.

[mr3856a]

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. In a simulation, really anything can happen as long as it is statistically possible.

Understood, however, as I said in another thread, if that's to be the case, why have ratings at all? Why have 99 speed, 90+ stealing, a catcher with a 70-something arm and a pitcher with 70's power if, because it's statistically possible, you're gonna get nailed 65% of the time anyway? :confused:

Ya know?

Incidentally, the reverse used to also be true. I'd have a catcher with a cannon for an arm, and he'd have guys in the 60's running on him and he'd never catch anybody. You'd see wheelchair tracks in the dirt from first to second - SAFE! ;)

[HoustonGM]

Understood, however, as I said in another thread, if that's to be the case, why have ratings at all? Why have 99 speed, 90+ stealing, a catcher with a 70-something arm and a pitcher with 70's power if, because it's statistically possible, you're gonna get nailed 65% of the time anyway? :confused:

Ya know?

Incidentally, the reverse used to also be true. I'd have a catcher with a cannon for an arm, and he'd have guys in the 60's running on him and he'd never catch anybody. You'd see wheelchair tracks in the dirt from first to second - SAFE! ;)
The thing is, the ratings are used in the calculations, but, just as in real life, it has to be possible that a bad catcher throws out a good runner every so often, so that POSSIBILITY is there. The computer runs the numbers, and since the possibility exists, sometimes it happens.

You also should check the leaguewide settings. Perhaps runners across the league are being caught more often. If that's the case, try turning down Caught Stealing in the SImulation Settings.

[mr3856a]

The thing is, the ratings are used in the calculations, but, just as in real life, it has to be possible that a bad catcher throws out a good runner every so often, so that POSSIBILITY is there. The computer runs the numbers, and since the possibility exists, sometimes it happens.

You also should check the leaguewide settings. Perhaps runners across the league are being caught more often. If that's the case, try turning down Caught Stealing in the SImulation Settings.

Oh, I completely understand the possibility being there and the necessity for such, it was just that the anomaly seemed to be the rule more often than not. I don't expect every good catcher to catch every slow runner, but I don't expect him never to catch him, either.

I've never really messed with the simulation settings, save for turning down the injuries. Maybe I should.

[HoustonGM]

Just for your information, "simulation settings" are a seperate screen from the "league editor" which is where you turn injuries down.

[RAW]

I use "run and hit" instead but even then the bat stays on the batter's shoulder more than it should, seems to me, even with 80+ contact hitters at the plate.
If the game is programmed correctly, a "run and hit" call gives the hitter the option of swinging if he likes the pitch, so "leaving his bat on his shoulder" would and should occur much more often on this call. As I have posted earlier, however, on the "hit and run" the batter does not have that option and must swing at the pitch "to protect the runner". In "run and hit" the base runner is attempting to steal and should only be attempted with a good, fast runner, while "hit and run" can be used with just a moderately fast runner, but a good contact hitter.
I do agree, though, that both these plays could probably use some modifying in the game.

[mr3856a]

I'm just playing another PBP game for the first time in a week or so; I've called three "hit & run's" and the batter has yet to swing once.

[HoustonGM]

And I executed twice perfectly in my last game... *shrug*

[mr3856a]

I'm not saying it has to be executed perfectly every time, but is it really too much to ask that when you call a "hit & run" that the batter actually swings the (#$&@# bat? *shrug*

Aside from missing a sign - which happens - it can't simply be shrugged off that when a hit & run is called, batters repeatedly do not swing. That's like calling for an intentional walk and the pitcher throws it down the gut anyway, or calling a squeeze and the runner doesn't move.

It's really pathetic, to be honest.

[HoustonGM]

Well, I don't know. As I said, I've only seen the batter not swing two or three times, and I've called the hit and run a good amount of times. I think it's a perception thing going on here, or just a fluke...*shrug* Unless you can prove beyond a shadow of doubt, which probably means that you AND a large amount of other people see this, that the hit and run them majority of the time results in no swing, theres not much Clay can do.

[beerchaser]

Well, I don't know. As I said, I've only seen the batter not swing two or three times, and I've called the hit and run a good amount of times. I think it's a perception thing going on here, or just a fluke...*shrug* Unless you can prove beyond a shadow of doubt, which probably means that you AND a large amount of other people see this, that the hit and run them majority of the time results in no swing, theres not much Clay can do.

It shouldn't have to be "a majority of the time" HGM, not for a situation like a hit and run. When a hit and run is called, the batter's job is to put the ball in play. You can forgive a guy for striking out swinging, popping up, etc., especially if his contact ratings suck, but not for standing there with the bat still on his shoulder. A real life manager would be irate if he called a hit and run and his batter just stood there even once, let alone a majority of the time. This really shouldn't happen more than once in 5, maybe once in 10 tries at most. It may not be as high a priority item as some other things on the agenda, but I agree with the poster that says this needs to be looked at.

[HoustonGM]

Also, though, keep in mind that in Manager Mode, you only see the final outcome of the at bat. Certainly, a hit and run is not going to be put on the entire at bat. Perhaps the batter swung twice and now has two strikes on him, and then takes the called strike three. Manager Mode is abstract in that sense.

[beerchaser]

Also, though, keep in mind that in Manager Mode, you only see the final outcome of the at bat. Certainly, a hit and run is not going to be put on the entire at bat. Perhaps the batter swung twice and now has two strikes on him, and then takes the called strike three. Manager Mode is abstract in that sense.

True that you only see the end result, but... if you put the hit and run on in Manager mode then it is in effect for the entire at bat. You can't take it off. You hate to see a batter take a strike three in any situation, but it definitely shouldn't be happening with a hit and run on.

This kinda ties in with another pitch (so to speak) that I made awhile back, which is that it would be nice to see the pitch sequence for batters. If a guy had a 10-pitch at bat, what happened in those 10 pitches? Did he foul off a bunch? What?

[HoustonGM]

Well, with a 10 pitch at bat, it's assumed that he fouled pitched off. 3-2 = 5 pitches, so the only possible way to get to 10 is with foul balls. But yes, pitch sequences would be cool.

[mr3856a]

It shouldn't have to be "a majority of the time" HGM, not for a situation like a hit and run. When a hit and run is called, the batter's job is to put the ball in play. You can forgive a guy for striking out swinging, popping up, etc., especially if his contact ratings suck, but not for standing there with the bat still on his shoulder.

Amen.

He can strike out, line into a double play, fly out, pop out, whatever, and I won't complain, but it's a hit & run - the least you can ask is for the guy to swing the bat.

[HoustonGM]

Would you want the hit and run still on if the count runs to 2-2? That's what I think is going on here. Yes, you choose to hit and run, but in real life, the hit and run is never kept in effect the entire at bat. If it doesn't work out, it's taken off usually. I think the game uses common sense after the count reaches a certain point...

*shrug* Really, only Clay could give any meaningful insight into this.

[JayC]

Yeah, I'm with HoustonGM on this, and that came up in another thread a while ago. Like when you call for, say, a sac fly... it doesn't mean the batter will always make that attempt: he waits (as the old help file says) for an appropriate pitch. My guess has been that when you call a hit and run, the attempt only happens if an appropriate situation comes up.

In reality, you'd not necessarily want to go hit and run on the first pitch. But in one-pitch mode you don't get to be discerning -- so perhaps you're really just suggesting to the AI, "look for a hit and run situation and use it if you can.

I mentioned in that thread a couple of months ago that I was going to watch for these "no swing" situations, and note in the html game log what the pitch count was. That could serve as a clue as to whether this theory is correct. What also might be helpful would be to note the contact and eye ratings of the batter.

Since I said that, I've probably played 35 or 40 games in Manager mode, which probably means 25 or 30 hit and run calls, and haven't seen this happen once. But I have a few good contact/eye guys in my llineup, and they're the only ones I make the call for. It could be that these guys rarely get behind in the count, so they tend to get good hit and run situations. Weaker batters will get behind early, and the actual hit and run never really gets called to them.


This really shouldn't happen more than once in 5, maybe once in 10 tries at most.
As I said above, it definitely doesn't happen anywhere near that often to me.

If I get some time later, I'll try to play a few "exhibition" games and call a hit an d every time I get a runner one base, and make note of the batter's skills and the pitch count. If anyone else want to try to compile the same information it should help to figure out what's really going one -- and if it really is a bug, should help Clay address it.

[beerchaser]

I'm starting to believe that Mogul itself maybe works differently from one user to the next. One person may see something that another doesn't and vice versa. For example, I remember a thread awhile back where somebody was complaining about excessive no-trade contract requests, whereas I hardly ever see no-trade requests. This hit and run thing may be another of those quirks.

[OldFatGuy]

On the point of manager mode and the play maybe being called off, I agree, and that makes sense. But then in that the runner shouldn't be running either should he?? I mean I thought this guy was saying his batters were standing there AND his runners were getting thrown out.

[JayC]

On the point of manager mode and the play maybe being called off, I agree, and that makes sense. But then in that the runner shouldn't be running either should he??
Well... kinda depends. A straight steal attempt certainly could be a sensible tactic in situations where a hit and run wouldn't be.

But that's something else worth keeping track of when seeing this: if a hit and run is called and the batter strikes out looking: (a) what was the pitch count, (b) what were the batters eye, contact, and hit and run ratings, (c) did the runner go?

Again, I'll try to do some games later calling the hit and run whenever there's a runner on and track that stuff.


I'm starting to believe that Mogul itself maybe works differently from one user to the next. One person may see something that another doesn't and vice versa. For example, I remember a thread awhile back where somebody was complaining about excessive no-trade contract requests, whereas I hardly ever see no-trade requests.
To an extent that could be differences between versions and patches. Mostly in cases like that no-trade thing it's probably mostly perception, stemming the human tendency to think in terms of patterns to the extent that we see them even when they don't really exist. Without real data, once someone starts to think that kind of thing is happening they'll notice it every time without paying attention to the many times when it doesn't happen.

Without data to illustrate it, saying "this happens too much" isn't too meaningful.

[HoustonGM]

I'm starting to believe that Mogul itself maybe works differently from one user to the next. One person may see something that another doesn't and vice versa. For example, I remember a thread awhile back where somebody was complaining about excessive no-trade contract requests, whereas I hardly ever see no-trade requests. This hit and run thing may be another of those quirks.
As JayC said, it's probably mostly a perception thing. As long as two people are using the same patch, it's impossible for there to be actual differences in the way the game runs.

[beerchaser]

Impossible? That's a pretty broad statement to make. Different pieces of hardware, different users, who knows how many different registry configurations, etc. Where software is concerned, I'd say that most anything is "possible".

[HoustonGM]

Impossible? That's a pretty broad statement to make. Different pieces of hardware, different users, who knows how many different registry configurations, etc. Where software is concerned, I'd say that most anything is "possible".
That doesn't change the code of the game. Every copy of the game thats on the same patch as the exact same code. The hardware may affect the speed of the game and it's responsiveness and the like, but there's no way that the computer is going to change the code and make it so tons of players ask for no-trade clauses, or that hit and runs seems to work less for some people. The code does not change.

[JayC]

Different pieces of hardware, different users, who knows how many different registry configurations, etc. Where software is concerned, I'd say that most anything is "possible".
What's not possible is for any of that to change the algorithms coded in the software. That is, those differences can not result in varying results when a user calls for a hit and run, or what kinds of contracts are requested.

[mr3856a]

Would you want the hit and run still on if the count runs to 2-2? That's what I think is going on here. Yes, you choose to hit and run, but in real life, the hit and run is never kept in effect the entire at bat. If it doesn't work out, it's taken off usually. I think the game uses common sense after the count reaches a certain point...

*shrug* Really, only Clay could give any meaningful insight into this.

If that were the case, that'd be fine, but bear in mind - if they are taking the H&R off at 2 strikes, why are the runners still running?

If it gets taken off at 2 strikes (or whatever), it should be taken off entirely.

The other thing I do realize that I can do is go to "player" mode for that at-bat and see if that works better.

[mr3856a]

Well... kinda depends. A straight steal attempt certainly could be a sensible tactic in situations where a hit and run wouldn't be.

Yeah, but that's another thing entirely. I'll call hit & runs with guys on base I would not go straight steal with. I don't want the game saying for me, "Ok, it's two strikes, so I'm taking the hit & run off, but I will send the runners anyway." If I put a H&R on, I want them to hit & run, and if it somehow gets automatically taken off, I don't want the AI making a managerial decision for me and opting for the straight steal in lieu of the hit & run.

Also, I am very conscious of who is hitting when I call the H&R, not only with contact/eye ratings, but I check the actual "hit & run" rating as well.

I very much appreciate your thoughts and input on this, and I will try and compile some data as well as to the count, ratings, etc. when I see it not work properly again.

[JayC]

If I put a H&R on, I want them to hit & run, and if it somehow gets automatically taken off, I don't want the AI making a managerial decision for me and opting for the straight steal in lieu of the hit & run.

Yep, me neither. But we're trying to figure out what's going on. I'm not saying that what's going on is what should be; just theorizing as to what it might be.

Anyway, I haven't gotten the time to try as many attempts as I want to yet, but I've called four hit and runs. The batter swung on all four, so nothing really helpful there yet. But the counts on those swing attempts were:

3-0
2-2
1-2
0-0

So, clearly the AI doesn't always have the hit and run on with the first pitch. And if it's making a decision as to what pitches to have it on and which to have it off, it's not making the decision the way most managers would. The batter when a hit and run was called with a 3-0 count was a rookie batting .251 with a .278 OBP; rated 78 Contact, 69 Eye, and 74 Hit and Run. Not a guy you'd likely give a 3-0 green light to under any circumstances.

(But... he doubled, and the runner scored from first. :))

[mr3856a]

Yep, me neither. But we're trying to figure out what's going on. I'm not saying that what's going on is what should be; just theorizing as to what it might be.

Alright, now I understand what you're saying. I haven't gotten any "takes" yet in the last two games I've played, but I think I only H&R once - I'm in the World Series, so it ain't time to be fooling around. :D

[JayC]

I'm in the World Series, so it ain't time to be fooling around. :D
Heh... I hear that. While the other three examples I mentioned were in a throwaway game I played specifically to do this, that 3-0 RBI double came in game three of my ALDS. Unfortunately it resulted in my only run in a 4-1 loss, but I'm still up two games to one. ;)

[JayC]

OK, it just happened to me. First I called a hit and run that resulted in a swing and a popup on a 1-2 count. Then, with runners on first and second (86 speed and 88 speed respectively) and one out, called another one. No swing, the batter was out looking, the play result was a double steal.

The batter is Contact 90, Eye 77, and Hit and Run 77. Pitch count was 2-2.

[ohms_law]

FYI: You can save games in the middle of PBP games now, with Mogul 2008. That should makes tests for this at least somewhat easier.