I still can't grasp this

[HoustonGM]

Why the heck is Congress spending time on steroids in baseball? Seriously. Why? There is absolutely no reason for Congress to devote time to this.

[Rongar]

Why the heck is Congress spending time on steroids in baseball? Seriously. Why? There is absolutely no reason for Congress to devote time to this.

Your Congressmen are farsighted, HGM - ever looking ahead to their next election campaign - this is a marvellous (photo)opportunity for them to hog the spotlight...they know that the media will make much of it, even if we fans don't (and, unfortunately, we do, don't we?):rolleyes:

[HoustonGM]

This is just something Congress does not need to be involved in. "Think of the children" is the rhetoric they keep bringing up. Please. There's much more pressing issues that affect the children than freaking baseball players injecting things into their butt.

And it's being broadcast on EVERY national news channel. America really needs to get its priorities straight.

[CatKnight]

Yeah! They need to get back to reality TV!

[RickD]

Yeah! They need to get back to reality TV!

ROFL!!!!

True there are wars happening and this seems like a non-issue for Congress. This to me is why you have a commish in sports. If the commish is not doing his job properly then fire him and move on!

[RickD]

Ah....such a waste....did you go to a party....how long does it take you to golf....

[HoustonGM]

Everyone at this hearing looks like a fool.

[RickD]

Well I think the world is safer knowing how long it takes Roger to Golf.

[HoustonGM]

The children are certainly better off.

By the way, Rep. Dan Burton, I loved his line, "Gee whiz, are you kidding me? My goodness."

And He does not look like he wants to be there. His hand has been on his cheek the entire time.

[RickD]

He's hiding his HGH needle mark!

[RickD]

Is it me or does everyone there look constipated?

[HoustonGM]

All I know, is hearing Congress talk about masses on buttocks so much makes me giggle.

[HoustonGM]

"Palpable mass on his buttocks"

[HoustonGM]

I thought you were tired of talking about steroids in baseball, so why start a thread?
Being tired about it or not, it's an ongoing story and when something big happens like this, it's okay to discuss.


Rep. Davis: "Mr. Clemens, do you recall bleeding through your pants in 2001?"

Clemens: "I do not."

[Coach Owens]

Being tired about it or not, it's an ongoing story and when something big happens like this, it's okay to discuss.


Rep. Davis: "Mr. Clemens, do you recall bleeding through your pants in 2001?"

Clemens: "I do not."

There's a reason they're having the represenitives doing this. :p

[beerchaser]

"Palpable mass on his buttocks"

ok, I admit I have been paying no attention to these hearings whatsoever, but after seeing some of these phrases thrown around (which fall into the category of too much information, btw), it seems perfectly logical to me to have Congress involved. They are after all an excellent authority on being a boil on the butt of Americans.

[Reade]

I loved to see Fraudger sit there and tell America that everyone else is lying and Pettite misheard what Fraudger said.

And Mr Burton-rep from Indiana before you go on National TV and blast someone maybe you should take a minute and think about your past. And Mr Shays-rep from CT you sat there and said Clemens is innocent until proven guilty in a court room, but you call someone a lair and a drugdealer but Mcnamee hasn't been found guilty in a court of law yet.


The most vocal grandstander was Rep. Dan Burton of rural Indiana, who absolutely skewered McNamee.

"This is really disgusting," Burton said. "I don't know what to believe. I know what I don't believe and that's you."

Strong words from a guy who while cheating on his wife knocked up his girlfriend and went years without visiting his son (though he was kind enough to cut him some checks).

Kinda of makes you wonder why this guy is making a moral judgement against someone else character. Here's the whole article from yahoohttp://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=dw-clemenspettitte021308&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

[Reade]

Is misremembered a word?

[Rongar]

Is misremembered a word?

If politicians can say that they "mis-spoke", then ballplayers are entitled to say that they "misremember":D

Come to think of it, that playing-field's not even level, anyway...perhaps the only gift that most politicians have, is that of the gab, and here they all are, ranged against a man whose career has been based upon effective action, rather than empty words.

No matter what Clemens may, or may not have done, I have far more respect for him, than I do for most of his interrogators
at this hearing.

[HoustonGM]

According to the dictionary (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/misremembered), as well.

[CatKnight]

ok, I admit I have been paying no attention to these hearings whatsoever, but after seeing some of these phrases thrown around (which fall into the category of too much information, btw), it seems perfectly logical to me to have Congress involved. They are after all an excellent authority on being a boil on the butt of Americans.

That's a very good point. Congress is quite experienced at all the sordid details of life.

I think we're best off reverting to trial by combat. Get everyone together - Clemens, McNamee, Selig, Fehr, and anyone who wants to use this in their campaigns (Burton, Shays, etc.) Give them all wiffle bats. Close the door.

Then they can sell tickets on Pay per View! I'd buy!

[HoustonGM]

So would I.

That'd be better TV than old men talking about butt masses.

[WHAK0985]

The children are certainly better off.

By the way, Rep. Dan Burton, I loved his line, "Gee whiz, are you kidding me? My goodness."

And He does not look like he wants to be there. His hand has been on his cheek the entire time.

Actually you have to think about the political context of this hearing, and any other hearing for that matter. The Democrats are the majority party and Henry Waxman the chair of the committee is a Democrat. Burton and the rest of the Republicans are doing what they do best, partisan politics. It's their so called "responsibility" as a Republican and minority party member to dissent to the Majority Party and Chair about their investigation.

So yes, he definitely did not want to be there. I also think that this is the source of the perceived Republican slant against McNamee and the support for Roger Clemens.

[Reade]

Here's a interesting read

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3244344

[Rongar]

Yeah, a cheating jerk who throws a bat shard at people derserves respect, gobs of it.

A man who has yet to be proven a jerk and/or cheat, YH...and
" Let he who is without stress amongst you, cast the first shard..." :p

[Rongar]

According to the dictionary (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/misremembered), as well.

"Ah...the language has gotten all misbegotten..."

William Shakespeare.

(from "As You Mislike It")

[HoustonGM]

I think he's been proven to be a jerk. And an idiot.

But not a cheat.

[mnstonecold]

this is the reason why i don't watch the news or any major network anymore[was because of the strike but more because of the politics] it is because everyone everywhere is talking about the same ****** thing! I hate watching CBS when they preempt NCIS with election coverage. If you want to know how the political system works watch Team America World police, and you'll have your answer.

[HoustonGM]

Pitching better at 38 then he did at 28 is proof for me. Sabrematricans even agree that his dual peak defies stastistical norms.
Hank Aaron had a career high 47 home runs when he was 37. Also a career high OPS+ of 194. Cheater.

Randy Johnson was no better than an average pitcher, who walked 100+ guys a year until he was 29. His best seasons ame in his late 30s'. I guess he found a way to cheat that improves his control.

Nolan Ryan had the second-highest ERA+ of his career at age 40. His highest came in 1981 - a year shortened by strike. Cheater.

Cy Young's best years came at age 34 and age 41. Cheater.


I don't know what sabermetricians you're talking about specifically, but not all agree. See this article (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=7139).


Naturally, I have my own opinion about whether Clemens used so-called performance enhancers, and I don’t think he did himself any favors in his Congressional testimony yesterday. But where his statistical record is concerned, there is no smoking gun.




Oh and for what it's worth, Roger Clemensat age 28 had a better year than he did at age 38. And he also doesn't really have a "dual peak." Except for a few years - 1993, 1995, arguably 1996, 1999, 2002, and 2003 - he was consistently outstanding with a few off-the-charts years thrown in (1990, 1997, 2005). For an all-time great pitcher, that's nothing out of the ordinary.

[shepster]

If Nolan would put his Cheeting art to Texas that ok here

[RickD]

Well I think the whole improving with age proves you cheat theory is just bunk. Some guys learn how to condition themselves, play smarter, etc. Even in football Jerry Rice put up great numbers by playing smarter and conditioning as he aged.

I remember seeing pics of Nolan working out as he aged and continuing to work on conditioning.

I also re-watched part of the Hearing on this mess and loved the self-serving criticism the congressman had of themselves...."We should not be wasting time with this, does not serve the nation well, wastes taxpayer money, but since I'm here let me talk to Roger Clemens."

[Arctic Blast]

There is one reason I think Clemens used, and it's the same reason I think Bonds and sosa and Giambi used. Their cap sizes increased repeatedly during the periods in question, which means their HEAD sizes increased. Grown men do not typically tend to have their skulls start expansion when that man is in his 30's and 40's...doesn't happen. There is no other explanation for this phenomenon.

[HoustonGM]

Is there anywhere that documents the cap sizes of players??

[CatKnight]

I dunno, I'm inclined to go with PECOTA's view on things (the last quoted article.) It's not unheard of for players to stabilize and continue performing well into their late 30s.

IMPROVE, as Barry Bonds did? That calls for explanation. Not just for one season, which can be an anomalous random spike - 'the luck of the baseball gods' or some such - but over a few years?

I don't care what new workout regime you have...your body is going to age and start breaking down. Ads like "I feel better at 42 than I did at 22" are only true if you weren't really doing anything to help yourself at 22...in which case you couldn't have been MLB caliber.

Longevity and a SLOW decline? Mmm...well, it's happened before, so I have to concede the possibility that it's happening here.

Cap sizes? LOL!

[HoustonGM]

Well there is a report due out to challenge the BP findings so I will reconsider after reading the new report.
Where's this information from?

And BP's article isn't really "findings." I don't know how you really can "challenge it." All it did was go back to before he was alleged to have started steroids, and projected him forward using PECOTA, and compared that to how he actually did...


As of right now I find it hard to believe Roger wasn't on the juice, because of overwhelming evidence.
I don't doubt that he used steroids either, because I think most players did at least try it at some point that played in the late 90's and early 00's. But, the evidence against Clemens is not overwhelming. The only evidence is the word of a drug-dealing, alleged rapist, proven liar.

[Reade]

proven liar.

So is Fraudger, unless you believe his best friend and closest teammate, Andy Pettite and his wife are both lying about Fraudger too. Seems kinda of funny that all these people are lying on Fraudger, they all must really hate Fraudger, must be a big *sshole to be around.

And if Mcnamee is such a piece of *hit why the **** did Fraudger keep him as trainer for so long?

[HoustonGM]

Brian McNamee stood in front of Congress and admitted to lie after lie after lie. He is a liar. That's not to say that he's lying about Clemens, but it is to say that the guy does not have much credibility.

Also, Andy Pettitte doesn't have to be lying. He said Clemens told him that he did HGH, and then when he asked years later, Clemens said he must've misunderstood him. Pettitte says multiple times that it was a possibility that he misunderstood. He wasn't 100% confidant about the conversations. And Pettitte's wife just said what Pettitte told her, so, if Pettite misunderstood, than, so did his wife...

[HoustonGM]

I think HGM has a man crush on Dan Burton, snicker. Never would have figured HGM as a conservative.
No, I don't have a man crush on Dan Burton. I despise most politicians. And I'm not conservative. But he was one of the few that actually took to exposing the facts about McNamee instead of focusing solely on Clemens.


Past lies do not guarantee he is lying now
As I acknowledged.


so the correct sentence for you to have typed is he was a liar.
He has lied about steroids. In the past few months. The man IS a liar, and arguing otherwise is just arguing semantics.


The trainer doesn't need much creditability when all (ok most) of the evidence corraberates (Yeah I misremebered how to spell that word) what he is saying.
There isn't any evidence. Currently, the only evidence is what he says, and Pettitte's shaky testimony, which PETTITTE HIMSELF admitted is shaky.

Oh, and Pettitte has lied too. You know, the whole, "I did HGH for two days and only two days" and then a couple months later admitting to have done it more?

Everybody involved in this stupid situation has lied. I really don't know why baseball, and especially Congress, is wasting time on it anymore. We get it. Tons of players used steroids and HGH. Instead of going on witch hunts to try and catch people that shot syringes up their butts 10 years ago, why don't we put attention on furthering the testing policies for the present and future?

[HoustonGM]

What is the point of going on witch hunts to crucify stars when the reality is that likely the majority of players used?

[HoustonGM]

What does you knowing which indiviudal players took steroids do? Seriously. What is the point? You aren't getting the money back.

How about we just accept that everybody involved in the game of baseball ripped you off (if you feel you were ripped off, which I don't) - the players, the owners, the commissioner, the media. They all played a role in allowing the steroid problem to fester. So, instead of going on a witch hunt to find out which stars did steroids (because we all know that nobody cares if a player did steroids as long as he wasn't any good), just accept that baseball as a whole ripped you off.

Or just move on. Is it really THAT big of a deal? Obviously not, because you're still a fan of the game and you're still following it.


Oh, and yeah, I don't care if you want to know about it. I just don't think that MLB (and especially Congress) should waste the exorbitant amount of time that they are.

[HoustonGM]

They wrecked the sanctity of the game, I have no problems with people trying to restore it. I am still mad, but what can I do? I love baseball and MLB has the best players to watch.
The game was really sanctified back when black people weren't allowed to play. And back when there used to be bowls of amphetamines in every clubhouse. And back when cocaine was rampant.

Sorry, the game was never some sanctified holy place that people are making it out to be. Sure, you have every right to be mad about it and all. But please, don't act like baseball was some shining beacon of holiness and innocence, and when steroids came around, it wrecked everything. There has always been drugs. There has always been cheating. Baseball is still baseball.

[HoustonGM]

How can you not feel ripped off?
Because I paid to watch baseball, and I still got to see baseball whether or not some players were on steroids. And I enjoy watching baseball for what it is.


How many players would have made the Majors if there was more turnover?
Who knows.


Especially with you being more into the stats part of the game, I would imagine you would be even more mad.
Statistics are just a record of what happened on the field. You have to look at them in context.


If Pedro Martinez wasnt juiced, as I tend to believe, who knows what he could have done without the majority of people cheating? Could he have set the single season era record? Or K's?
Doubt it. 0.96 is the modern ERA record (since 1901). Pedro's best was 1.74. I don't think that if you take steroids out of some of the players he faced, it'd shave 3/4ths of a run off his era. He does hold the modern record for ERA+, though.

And strikeouts, considering Randy Johnson reached 3rd place on the modern all-time single season strikeout list in 2001, when steroid use may have been at a peak, I don't think Pedro would've surpassed Nolan Ryan.

Offensive levels were high for reasons beyond just steroid use. There was very likely a change in the ball in the mid-90's (http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/changes-in-home-run-rates-during-the-retrosheet-years/). Parks were smaller. Players trained better. There has still been no evidence of what steroids do to a player's offensive stats.

[RickD]

Brian McNamee stood in front of Congress and admitted to lie after lie after lie. He is a liar. That's not to say that he's lying about Clemens, but it is to say that the guy does not have much credibility.

Also, Andy Pettitte doesn't have to be lying. He said Clemens told him that he did HGH, and then when he asked years later, Clemens said he must've misunderstood him. Pettitte says multiple times that it was a possibility that he misunderstood. He wasn't 100% confidant about the conversations. And Pettitte's wife just said what Pettitte told her, so, if Pettite misunderstood, than, so did his wife...

Sounds like a reasonable argument to me! McNamee just lied too much in my book.

[RickD]

Baseball has, as mentioned previously, never been a "holy" sport. I remember the Cocaine headlines of the 80's...I remember reading about the alcohol binges of players who could not give their best because they were so smashed. Like all sports, the players are human, they screw up, doesn't make it right but it happens. No one cares who uses HGH on Main Street and no one complained when the stat surges started in the 90s!

[RickD]

My statement that no one cares who uses HGH on Main Street means we are not having congressional hearings on rather 5 Wal-Mart employees are using HGH! Congress is only involved in this due to the Face time on TV and to meet Baseball players, imo! Secondly just today Andy Pettite had this to say:


"HGH was not banned by players and owners until January 2005.
"If it was illegal in baseball, I wouldn't have done it," Pettitte said.

We are getting worked up as a society over something that was LEGAL at the time.

I in no way implied anyone who cared was a no one. Please let's not personalize this.

[HoustonGM]

Yeah recovering faster is no advantage. Playing longer isn't either. Just because it can't be quantified in a numerical sense, doesn't mean I have to assume it has no benefit. That would be ignorant of me.
When did I say there was no advantage? I said: There has still been no evidence of what steroids do to a player's offensive stats.


You think people would put their bodies at risk for no gain? Seriously?
Maybe. If they think it helps them. (http://shysterball.blogspot.com/2008/02/superstitions.html)


The 5 wal-mart employees don't have a financial or cultural impact on the level of MLB players. How can people not comprehend this? Try apples and apples people, not apples and oranges.
Okay. Why haven't Roger Goodell and the boatloads of football players that have done steroids been hauled in front of Congress?


Baseball has several exemptions given to it by the US gov't, so they have every right to make sure that MLB is fair, since baseball was given certain advantages. I'm sorry you think that this is all a scam, since it isn't.
There are many many more important things for Congress to be spending time on.

[RickD]

There are many many more important things for Congress to be spending time on.

Exactly. Why waste America's time....we are in an era of huge gas prices, a weakening economy, a war (or 2), etc and Congress thinks THIS is of national importance!

[HoustonGM]

The NFL has taken much better care of drug problems in house, thats why.
Baseball has done very well in policing steroid use in the past few years. The real reason is probably because big freaky guys in football are expected, and because football's records aren't as "hallowed" and "sacred" as baseball's are. When a star football player tests positive for steroids, he serves his suspension and nobody gives a **** after that. Imagine if a star baseball player tested positive in this upcoming year. You think he'd be able to just go on like nothing happened after he served the suspension? No. Doubt it.


If you think being stronger and faster and more healed doesn't help you offensively, then there is no common ground for us. But if you do, like most of us do, then just because it can't be ,mathematically quantified doesn't mean we just ignorantly dismiss it.
Once again, I said: There has still been no evidence of what steroids do to a player's offensive stats. It's not that hard to understand. That sentence is not saying that steroids don't help your offensive statistics. It's saying, THERE'S NO EVIDENCE AS TO WHAT THEY DO TO THE OFFENSIVE STATISTICS.


I'm glad you take an interest in what Congress does. I feel this is worthy, since pro sports have many legal exemptions, and they should be watched by Congress as a price to pay for these exemptions. 'nuff said
Multiple Congresspeople agreed that it was a waste of time. And, once again, why is baseball the only professional sport being hauled in front of Congress? It wouldn't have anything to do with the government helping a private investigation ran by a former senator (WHICH IS WRONG, in and of itself), and than doing anything it takes to downplay any objections to the report, would it? No. Couldn't be.

[HoustonGM]

And yeah who would think the national pastime would be of national importance?
How about, the palpable mass on Roger Clemens' buttocks isn't of national importance.

The Clemens hearings were a joke. They were a waste of time. And accomplished nothing.

[RickD]

How about, the palpable mass on Roger Clemens' buttocks isn't of national importance.

The Clemens hearings were a joke. They were a waste of time. And accomplished nothing.

Agreed but this is turning into a yankeehater feels one way vs. HGM, RickD feeling the other thread so I'm opting out. We've beat the topic to death and are firm in our opinions. Let's move on.

[Arctic Blast]

I agree with Houston, for the most part, on this issue. It is obvious that the lone reason government has jumped in so massively is for the face time. Now, my feelings would be different if this involved, say, the NCAA, as further allegations of corruption and drug abuse there could be enough to (in my opinion, FINALLY) strip that organization of it's tax exempt status.

Did a lot of players use? Of course they did. It is simply impossible to bulk up to the degree Bonds did, in that amount of time, without chemical help (just as it was ridiculous for numerous football players to do the same. And, in the interests of fairness, I'll throw out a few names here...David Boston and Bill Romanowski. And, a few guys I have LONG suspected, Vincent Brown, Jason Sehorn and Kendrell Bell).

Government should step in to try and do something about performance enhancement abuse at LOWER levels of sport, certainly. I wouldn't have any problem with that at all...but that isn't going to be BIG news, because it doesn't involve BIG names (which, frankly, is more an indictment of the pathetic state of modern media, but that's a whole different diatribe). So, they go after the pros, because that will garner the headlines.

Do I lose respect for a guy when his name pops up? Absolutely. Bonds and Clemens are scum (of course, I pretty much already thought that). So is everyone else involved (and that INCLUDES Selig, Fehr, and any/every owner and GM and manager that knew, by the way...if we're going to toss people under the bus, let's throw EVERYONE under it). Does that mean I stop watching the sport? Obviously not, since I'm a massive football fan. Sorry to say this folks, but you will find abuse of performance enhancing drugs in every major sport these days (the lone exception probably being auto racing, where bulking up isn't exactly beneficial). That's a said, pitiful fact, but it is still a fact.

[HoustonGM]

Unless there's evidence hidden from Clemens still and they wanted to see if he would 'hang' himself into a perjrury charge.
Aka, a witch hunt.


I am confused on why you keep repeating 'we don't know what steroids does to statistics'. The amount it helps doesn't matter. It would help on equalizing some stats out. It just seems like you say that to sort of imply that steroids dont help out with stats, without really saying it. Since the amount that it helps is pointless, since cheating is cheating, I don't really see another viable explanation.
Suggesting that it would've been possible for Pedro Martinez to break ERA and strikeout records had steroids not been around makes me think that you tihnk steroids have a gigantic effect on statistics. I simply stated that there's no evidence as to what steroids do help when it comes to offensive stats to refute that idea.

[HoustonGM]

Since we agree the steroid gain can't be quantified, I don't find it silly to suggest Pedro MIGHT have accomplished really special things, had he not gone against a bunch of people with an advantage.
I think Pedro did accomplish really special things.

That's why you adjust for context.

I don't think he would've had an ERA below 0.96 or struck out 380+ batters though.

[Wassit3]

why is baseball the only professional sport being hauled in front of Congress? It wouldn't have anything to do with the government helping a private investigation ran by a former senator (WHICH IS WRONG, in and of itself), and than doing anything it takes to downplay any objections to the report, would it? No. Couldn't be.

it is not, remeber dana stubblefeild is also being indicted for steriod use, an ex nfler...

[HoustonGM]

Stubblefield's not being hauled in front of Congress for an all-day hearing that accomplishes nothing.

He was part of BALCO, which federal investigators nabbed completely, and then Stubblefield admitted to lying to the investigators underoath. So, he's being indicted for perjury. The government was good to go after BALCO. It should be going after the major distributors of illegal drugs. Well, actually, I think drugs should be legal, so, I don't think they should, but that's another topic completely...as is, they go after drug dealers, so they should. I don't see what going after Roger Clemens does. When did drug investigations ever work like that? Let's give the dealers immunity to catch the users. I always thought it was the other way around.

[dps]

There really isn't any need for discussion on the war, since Bush has decided his policy and is going to stick with it.

And yeah who would think the national pastime would be of national importance?

A pastime shouldn't be the focus of government activity, IMO. Then again, unlike HGM, I'm a small-government type conservative, and there's a heck of a lot of stuff that the government sticks its nose into that I think it shouldn't.

As for the war, President Bush is going to stick to his policy, be he isn't going to stick around as President all that much longer.