salaries out of whack...

[faulk28]

i would like to see bbm do contracts as they are in baseball...meaning that if a player has not played in the majors he will not ask for a large sum of $...that would make farm spending more important and you could reward gm's for keeping their young players in the minors...

[khan]

some interesting numbers from real life-


Albert pujols signed a one year deal with STL for 600,000 after coming off one of the best rookie years in history.

Tim Hudson is making 875,000 with Oakland.

Mark Mulder is making 800,000 with Oakland.

Eric Chavez is making 2,125,000 (roughly 10 points) with Oakland.


So why is it that good young players with little or no majors experience want like 30 points a year ($6 million per year) when their contracts come up for renewal?

[khan]

Cardinals sign 3B Pujols to $600,000 deal
March 3, 2002
SportsLine.com wire reports


JUPITER, Fla. -- The St. Louis Cardinals on Saturday inked rookie of the year Albert Pujols to a one-year contract that ranks as one of the most lucrative for a player with one year of experience.

The deal is for $600,000 -- just $90,000 less than Chicago Cubs right-hander Kerry Wood received after his Rookie of the Year season in 1999.

Pujols' contract would set a record for Cardinals with just one year of major league experience, surpassing the $400,000 Rick Ankiel signed for following the 2000 season, the St. Louis Post-Dispatch reported.

The deal helps the Cardinals avoid the process of assigning a salary to Pujols, a 22-year-old Dominican. Beginning Sunday, teams may unilaterally renew contracts of players with fewer than three years experience.

Pujols may deserve more than $600,000 after hitting .329 with 37 home runs and a National League rookie-record 130 RBI in 2001. He also had 47 doubles and scored 112 runs while playing four different positions.

A unanimous Rookie of the Year selection, Pujols also helped the Cardinals overcome an injury-plagued campaign by first baseman Mark McGwire, who retired in the offseason.

[faulk28]

the salary structure is probably about to drive me out of this game...:( ...i wish bbm would go by major league rules and go by options and pay players by major league experience, not by how good the scouts say he is...

[takaplan]

Originally posted by faulk28
the salary structure is probably about to drive me out of this game...:( I don't understand...:confused: In MLB, some of the top prospects are getting $5 million+ just in the draft! You're not going to see a prospect in AAA, knowing he'll be a star the next year, sign a 7 year, $250,000 contract! The only reason Oakland got those players so cheap is they locked them up very early on in the minors, when they didn't expect to be a huge star.

[dturkenk]

Top players are getting $5 million as a signing bonus after the draft. Their actual yearly salaries are generally about $100,000 in the minors (I could be wrong on the exact number) and their salaries when they hit the majors are $200,000 or thereabouts.

After 3 years in the majors, players are eligible for arbitration where they submit a salary proposal, the team submits a salary proposal and an arbitrator decides on a salary based on those and some other things. Arbitration can be avoided if the team and player agree on a contract - which is what many teams try to do - especially with their young stars. If they sign them to a somewhat lucrative deal after their rookie season - it generally will save them money in the long run because it keeps them at a certain rate through their arbitration eligible years.

After 6 years of major league experience, then players are eligible for FA and the huge payoffs that come from that.

[takaplan]

Right. But since Mogul doesn't take into account signing bonuses, then having a rookie want more money makes sense to me.

Besides, usually a star rookie in AAA wants 5-10 pts for a short term deal, and only wants a ton of money for a long term deal.

[khan]

Thats the problem Tom. Star rookies don't want 5-10 points for a short-term deal anymore. They want 25-30 for even a one-year contract.

Explain the Pujols thing. Would you not say he was a star rookie?



-Its not just the rookies, btw. Anyone who becomes a FA wants to win the lottery.

Maybe its just our league, Survivor 2, but even guys with B-/C contact/power are asking for 40 points when they become FA.

[dturkenk]

Also, why should BBM take into account signing bonuses with higher salaries later?

Signing bonuses are generally one time payments and the large ones are to 1st round draft picks and independently signed free agents (foreign players, for the most part).

Personally, I'd be happier with a one time deduction of 25 points (5 million or so)or so in the offseason than having 4 players a year increasing their salary requests by 20 points when they have no major league experience.

I've been saying this for a while, but I think the game would be a lot better if players were under contract for 6 years in the majors with automatic balloon payments for years 4,5,6 to more accurately replicate MLB. Of course, you'd also need to allow for extensions to be signed at any time, but that doesn't seem like it would be that difficult since the logic is already there for players who are in their walk year.

I think you'd have fewer people complaining about unproven players asking for too much money and I think it would drive more trades, since working out disparate salaries would be a lot easier.

[bsessler]

Correct me if I am wrong, but don't the contracts reflect the money a league has to spend. Perhaps the huge contracts are because the league is making a ton of dough.

Your leagues commish can do things to balance out the economy of the league.

Franchise players
Club players and bonuses help equalize the economy

To my knowledge there are no franchise players in MLB.

[takaplan]

Well, regarding bonuses, here is how we looked at it when creating the player database:
If a player made $2 million this year, $2 million next year, and received a $2 million bonus, we programmed his salary into the game as "$3 million per year for 2 years." So any real life bonuses were averaged into the contracts.

[georgefc3]

I understand what everyone is saying. Rick Ankiel wants 12 points despite having a rotten record and being assigned to the major leagues. I paid it one year. I guess that makes me a fool.

I'm going to release him mid season, he can try his luck in the FA draft.

Personally, I think the system they have is ingenious. Minor leaguers can generally be signed for a few points. Only the ones with big potential are expensive. Even then, you can can a star guy to sign for 20 or 30 points. Much cheaper than FA draft. All in all I think the BBM system has a lot of advantages. First, it is simple and easy to understand. Second, you can always trade or release a guy if he asks too much. Finally, the players actual worth is decided in the Free Agent draft. I've gotten some really sweet deals there. Often better than signing guys from AAA.

But the FA is pot luck. Sometimes you get stuff, sometimes you don't! In any case, everyone bids on the available talent, so the price paid is close to what someone is worth.

[dturkenk]

That makes sense to me for major league players

But for minor leaguers who a lot of times we don't even see until they have received their entire bonus (since we don't get them until AAA) if doesn't make as much sense. Also, signing bonuses (as far as I can recall, although I could be wrong about this) aren't that common on the major league level - certainly not to the extent that they are in the NFL. It still doesn't make sense for an unproven minor leaguer to ask for even 10-15 ($2-3 million)points a year to resign.

[dturkenk]

Actually the issue to me isn't when Ankiel wants the money - although those aren't the most realistic salary demands either.

It's when Joe Schmoe AAA ballplayer with no major league experience (who shouldn't even be a free agent for 6 years) wants 10-15 points to resign for 3-4 years.

As I said a few posts ago - not too clearly but it's in there somewhere - I think the salary system actually can reduce the league activity because it's much more difficult to complete trades because the payroll is so much more of an issue.

[georgefc3]

Yes.

But that really is the heart of BBM. Trying to balance a budget while getting the best available players.

Sort of like real life!

:D

[faulk28]

that the players are asking for a certain amount of $ based on their ratings...however they sometimes don't perform anywhere near those ratings

[misterblond]

If the system was how some of you propose, it would be easy to take advantage of it (like in early versions of CD baseball mogul, I think) In the player's contract year, you put him in the minors and lose him for that one season. But, you gain 7 cheap seasons after that when his salary demands drastically drop. The current system obviously does not mirror MLB, but I think it's fair enough.
Someone from BBMOL can correct me if I'm wrong, but, it seems to me that the owners (much like in real baseball) partialy drive the demands of the free agents. (The other parts being age and talent level) My assumption is that the game takes into account the average salary for a player at that position in the league when deciding what he's going to ask for. So, if in the league you guys mentioned, other players have been signed for big bucks, the salary demands were driven up. I could be totally wrong, but it makes sense.

[georgefc3]

I would say the ASKING price for free agents is driven by the ball players and their agents.

The selling price is determined by the owners. If everyone refrains from bidding, the price drops. The price keeps dropping until someone says, "that's a fair price" and plunks down the cash.

So, if the price is too high, just refrain from bidding!

[faulk28]

you had salary set up as major league baseball does with options and minimum salary and minor league draft....if say a player has 5 options after those 5 options are up then you would have to keep the player in the majors after that or you would risk losing him( waiver wire would have to be instituted) through trying to send him to the minors...thereby you would be able to get your player better through the farm system, then get him for a good price for 3-4 more years...the way it's set up now i see many of my players getting better then i have to leave them go through free agency because of their demands

[dturkenk]

So don't base the salary demands on whether a player is in the majors now, but base them on total major league experience. Start counting the 6 years as soon as the players makes a minimum number of appearances (IPs or ABs) , so as not affect having the minor league pitchers come up to make the last few starts of a season. And have the salary increase in years 4,5,6 based on performance (not on ratings) - something that's already been determined since you can figure salary requests.

Personally I would prefer a waiver wire and options, etc. but I understand they really aren't workable or desired by a lot of the players. However, I think this solution would be relatively simple to implement and it's really not tough to figure out from a user's perspective.