11.07 Defensive rating inaccurate for multi-position players

[SirKodiak]

I noticed this, so I started another game to check, and it is still there. Multi-positional players seem to not have accurate (or at least consistent) defensive ratings at their secondary position. Note these 3 players' defensive ratings at secondary position on their skills tab vs what it says on the starting defense screen. Raburn's are not as bad as the others, but still not correct.

[HoustonGM]

I think I have a pretty good hunch as to what's causing this. It'll require me to mess around with editting a little, but I have class right now for a bit. I'll do some messing around when I get back and see if my hunch is correct.

[SirKodiak]

The mog these came from is the same one I uploaded for the 'high potential' bug (not sure where it is now, looks like it got moved again), so you can use the same mog if you want.

[ohms_law]

not sure where it is now, looks like it got moved again
Nah, I just pulled your posts out and moved the rest of the thread to general discussions. It's about halfway down the first page here: http://forum.sportsmogul.com/showthread.php?t=173744

[SirKodiak]

ah, thanks, I was wondering what happened.

[HoustonGM]

Okay. Here's what I thought might be happening. I'm fairly confidant that I was right, but there's another bug preventing me from being 100% sure.

I figured that the ratings shown on the Defense screen are the Arm/Range/Fielding ratings that the player would have based on his predicted stats at the position he's listed in. IE. Henry Mateo's defensive ratings on the Defense screen when he's listed in right field are those ratings that he would have if he was a right fielder with his predicted right field stats.

Now, to test this, I simply went into the player editor and switched his position to RF. Originally, as a 2B listed in the RF slot, he shows ratings of 80/68/59. As a right fielder, he has ratings of 76/68/59.

Ryan Raburn has ratings of 77/71/69 as a center fielder playing second base. As a second basemen, his ratings are 79/70/69.

Mike Hessman has ratings of 77/76/68 (this is after I refreshed the editor display first to correct the incorrect ratings from showing as per another fielding rating bug) as a third basemen at first base. As a first basemen, he has ratings of 76/73/68.

Now, I believe that the bug that made it so the defense screen ratings weren't exact matches to the player editor ratings still may exist for players out of position, as those ratings are nearly identical matches.

Here's where the problem lies, and here's is what really should be fixed. The total fielding rating at each position on the skills screen does NOT come simply from the player's predicted stats at each position. It first takes the player's defense rating at his default position, and then sort of uses the predicted stats to come up with a total rating for each other position. It should not do this. It SHOULD simply look at the player's predicted fielding stats at each position and come up with the total rating.

However, that also presents another problem. Shortstops should be able to move to second base and play fine, and my suggestion above would require every shortstop to also have predicted stats for second base or else they'd be bad second basemen. So, obviously, that's not an optimal solution, and that, I think, is the reason behind the current way of doing things, so, I propose a second solution, which is a hybrid.

For positions that the player DOES have predicted stats for, use SOLELY the predicted stats to come up with a player's rating at that position, even if it's not his default position. If a player does NOT have predicted stats at a position, use the way Mogul currently calculates a total fielding rating for that position.

Using that solution, you can make a shortstop that is also good at center field by inputting predicted stats into SS and CF. Under my first solution, you'd have him good at SS and CF, but he'd be bad at 2B, LF, and RF, where he really shouldn't be. Under the current Mogul system, his CF rating would be a mixture of his SS rating and CF predicted stats, which is inaccurate, but he'd also be playable at 2B, LF, and RF. Under my final solution, his SS and CF ratings would be what you want them to be based on his predicted stats, AND he'd be a playable 2B/LF/RF.

Does that make sense? And if so, do you guys agree?

[ohms_law]

I'm looking over the code for this now... currently, the game is showing the "defensive suitability" value for the player at each position on the field. Basically, what's shown is an indicator of what will happen if you do change a player's position.

Specifically, defensive suitability gets a players normal fielding rating (primary position) and applies a (rather complicated) multiplier to it according to the defensive spectrum... So, what you see on the screen is almost the fielding rating at the specified position, if the player's primary position were actually changed.

here:

// This represents the multiplier for a player's ratios at an unfamiliar position. For example, a player
// with an 1100 (10% above average) Assist Ratio at Shortstop would have a 935 Assist Ratio at Third Base.
// [Also used to assess bench role suitability, and to start players out-of-position in lineup] - CJD - 8/27/06


// PositionValue added to better reflect the defensive spectrum [CJD 1/15/06]


// If the player has experience at a position, get the similarity to the given nPosition.


// Give the player full value for 20 predicted games (up to 1/3 less value for less games)


// Give a bonus if moving lower on the 'Defensive Spectrum' (e.g. 3B to CF)


// Outfield suitability depends on SPEED (and having "an outfielder's arm")


// Reduce the bonus if it would give a rating above 90:


// Moving a Left-Handed Thrower to 2B, SS or 3B hampers his defense significantly:

On the other hand, what's shown on the defense dialog are (supposed to be) the players actual defense ratings at the position he's currently listed at, according to his predicted stats. ...at least, that's what it looks like to me.

So really, what's shown on the defense dialog and what's shown on the Skills tab are two different things. The skills tab looks like it's supposed to be just a guideline for what would happen if you changed the players position. Basically, it's intended to show you if the player will get better or worse after changing positions, and by approximately how much. On the other hand, the defense dialog looks like it's supposed to show what the actual ratings for the player are at the current position.
That's basically what I always thought it was supposed to do, and it makes sense to me. Especially after seeing the code. But, this issue has come up in the past in one form or another, so I don't know... maybe it should be changed.

Regardless, I think that this is more of a suggestion than a bug report...

[SirKodiak]

For guys that play one position I guess it kind of makes sense, but when someone (like those above) are listed as playing more than one position, those numbers should be accurate.

And, as it currently is, you have no idea how good they can play those positions when evaluating for a trade.

And why would Hessman be a great fielding 3B who is also qualified as a 1B, and skill tab shows him as a good 1B, but he is actually a rotten 1B. That's a bug (not working as designed) in my book.

[ohms_law]

Well... it's a bug as long as the design isn't intended to be that way... if it's designed to be that way, then it's just a bad design (or at least, a design that isnt' really well considered).
;)

I don't know, I'm hopeful for some input from Clay on this.

[SirKodiak]

Check this out, so it is definitely a bug

[HoustonGM]

Whats going on there?

[SirKodiak]

On the starting defense, he is listed as 77/77/68 at 1B (Post 1)
On Defensive Substitution, he is listed as 91/90/93 at 1B (Post 10)
Plus, on Skills Tab, he is 85 Overall (Post 1), which is neither of the above

[HoustonGM]

Ah, didn't notice that that was the defensive sub screen.

[Clay Dreslough]

On the other hand, what's shown on the defense dialog are (supposed to be) the players actual defense ratings at the position he's currently listed at, according to his predicted stats. ...at least, that's what it looks like to me.

So really, what's shown on the defense dialog and what's shown on the Skills tab are two different things. The skills tab looks like it's supposed to be just a guideline for what would happen if you changed the players position. Basically, it's intended to show you if the player will get better or worse after changing positions, and by approximately how much. On the other hand, the defense dialog looks like it's supposed to show what the actual ratings for the player are at the current position.This is a correct analysis. Those numbers aren't supposed to be equal to 'Arm' or 'Range' or 'Fielding' skills at those positions. Instead, they are a base indicator of how comfortable that player is at that position. When you combine that rating with the actual Arm/Range/Fielding numbers, you get how well he performs at that position.

That said, SirKodiak's assumptions about how they work are probably better assumptions. So I'll think about changing things to better fit that train of thought.

Also, the discrepancy between the Defensive Substitution Dialog and the Defense Dialog does need to be fixed. I think what's happening is that the Defense Dialog is showing Hessman's ratings AT FIRST. But the Defensive Substitution Dialog is showing his ratings at his 'native' position (third base).

Clay

[HoustonGM]

Basically, it's intended to show you if the player will get better or worse after changing positions, and by approximately how much.
I think it's important to note that player's NEVER get better when changing positions using the skills tab, which shouldn't be the case.

For example, take Ryan Braun, a guy with abysmal third base defensive ratings. Moving him to left field, in Mogul, would make his left field defense be even worse than his third base defense. In reality, while he may not be a GOOD defensive left fielder, he's not worse in left field than he was at third base...you know?

[ohms_law]

Yea, I agree. There should be some small bonus for moving down the defensive specturm. Not much, but a little at least.