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View Full Version : Sliders for Farm and Scouting



CatKnight
05-01-2008, 01:22 AM
Alright. I've mentioned this before in various places, and for the most part been brushed aside since it was usually in the middle of much longer diatribes, so let's hit this on the head.

We have a medical slider that affects the difference between a team ranked A+ and one ranked D+ (and everyone in between.) At +0 (default) the difference is fairly severe. At -100 there's no difference whatsoever.

This was installed because a large number of people wrote posts detailing the severe differences between medical staffs. They noted it was unrealistic that even a team like the D-Rays or Marlins apparently couldn't hire competent staff. More injuries results in more time lost (affecting competitive balance) and ultimately ruining these players' health. Fine. That's taken care of.

I want to see similar sliders for farm and scouting.

There are threads floating around here detailing the severe differences in farm development between an A+ and D team. The D team's players develop slower, peak sooner, and never reach potential.

This is not realistic. Promoting young talent from within is how small market teams SURVIVE. The Rays, Marlins, etc. do not produce **** players. They shouldn't in BM, at least not to this extent.

Scouting: That +/- 1 if you're an A team, if I remember other discussions correctly, is 1 standard deviation. It is most certainly NOT one point. In my current dynasty I have an A+ scouting, and they are OFTEN off by 5-6 overall/peak points.

A D+ team is nine standard deviations away. Do the math. Their scouts are worse than useless. Looking at their ratings/suggestions is a trap. Heck, even at +/-1 it can be really misleading.

Yet...that's what the AI does. There's this pretty new option called "Stats vs Scouting" asking which the AI should rely on. At default it relies very, very heavily on scouting and 'only changes between seasons' according to a post ohms wrote elsewhere.

In another thread, ohms wrote that expenses aren't a high priority. They are a money sink for the AI. Yet, this 'money sink' backfires when the big market clubs always dominate. And...since this game only has one AI....the big markets WILL always dominate. Yes?

In yet another thread posted in the last day or two, mattygerst posted that he's trying to set up an online league where everyone has the same ratings. That is impossible with the current setup. The computer will push teams away rank wise - even with identical spending and identical spending histories.

Late last year another player, writing for HIS online league, asked about having 'perfect' commissioner ratings, effectively turning off scouting. At the time I spoke against him on the grounds that there should be some doubt. +/- 1 deviation is reasonable doubt.

In the competitive balance threads that pop up every so often, you will often find people bring up what I've just summarized: Expenses are not the only (or even the main) factor in what's going on...but they don't help. They DO hurt competition. They DO hurt the realism of this game. And we have the power to do something about this.

I want sliders for farm and scouting, to do the exact same thing the current medical slider does: Narrow (or increase) the difference between teams that spend a lot or none at all.

This way, if people feel there's nothing wrong with the current system, they can leave it alone and play the game their way.

If people want to experiment and see if it helps to narrow the difference, then they can.

If people want to set up an online league where everyone's equal? Well, sliders let us do that too.

Ohms mentioned that expenses are meant as an AI money sink? Fine. Narrowing the differences between the big/small market teams MAKES it a moneysink that actually works and doesn't just make the big market teams that much more powerful.

I don't like OOTP, but I love their slogan. "It's your game, play it your way." This lets people do that, and now and forever takes 'expenses' off the table about whether the game is balanced or not.

HoustonGM
05-01-2008, 01:26 AM
I'd be in support of sliders just like the medical expenses slider.

It should be noted though, that with that slider, 0% isn't pretty severe...When it was added, I'm fairly certain that Clay changed the default level so that the difference between the teams wasn't that great.

FRENCHREDSOX
05-01-2008, 02:53 AM
Good points Cat ALSO Why does the Human GM get perfect OTHER teams rankings ? I mean you may be a D scout BUT you know NYY is an A or CLE a B ? This is also contradictory,your scouts SUCK but you know that X or Y is an ACE.If anything NO ONE (except in Commsih,*winks*) SHOULD see other teams RATINGS at all! One (& this is also viable for BMO) has always the tendency to trade with D+ & work up the list.

mattygerst
05-01-2008, 02:54 AM
I don't think that CatKnight could have said this any better. This is a brilliant post that summarizes some of the games most definitive faults.

Lets look at it like this:

I am big on playing in customed online leagues - and I feel that the custom leagues (not BMO) are a huge attraction for some Mogul players. In custom leagues, we want just that - the ability to customize.

A big detractor - for starters - is the lack of "password" protected teams. Why is this a big deal? Well, if scouting worked correctly and the more you spent - the better your scouting - a GM should be rewarded for this. But, with the current set up - the GM is not rewarded for this. Why? Well, because ANY GM can use ANY team for scouting. Meaning - if I put in $0, and have +/-9 scouting, and another GM spends the most in the league (say, 10 million), and has +/-1 scouting - there is NOTHING the prohibits me from clicking on his team and using HIS scouting.

Now...that can be "protected" against using a "simple" facet - or so we thought until some research was done. In the past - I simply posted the league's Commissioner mode ratings for all to see. Now, as you can expect that is very annoying to start with - checking a forum with rating numbers, then checking the game, then re-checking the forum and so on - very annoying. But, we also set all the teams to the SAME SPENDING. Why? Well, we all figure that this would enable all teams to 'eventually' reach the SAME scouting/medical/farm system ratings. But...guess what? That doesn't happen!!!!

Now...to me...what are the solutions to this? Well, personally, I think there are two. One short-term, one long-term.

#1 Short Term - Add sliders to farm system & scouting. This is not the "best solution", but a viable one for the short term until...
#2 - Fix the game code so that A) team password protection is enabled, and B ) fix the coding so that if all teams spend the SAME AMOUNT, that the ratings become the SAME over time (with the best option being coding where this can be done manually & have an immediate effect).

Also, I agree with CatKnight that having "some deviation" from perfect scouting is ideal. Real life scouting (which I do for a living) is not anywhere near an exact science. But, at the same time...the ability to have an option where commissioner mode scouting can be used WITHOUT using commissioner mode would be ideal (at the user's discretion, of course)...

I know that sounds confusing and people will say "why not just use the file with commissioner mode enabled"...well, here is the reason:

When you play a multi-player online league...you play to "match wits" with another human player. Not to dominate the AI. When commissioner mode is enabled, there are vital "cheat stats" that can be seen:

i.e., peak start age, peak end age, potential rating, longetivity rating, predicted stats, predicted peak stats, etc.

when these stats are able to be "viewed" then it takes any and all player development, trades, free agent signing strategy and throws it out the window and crashing toward the pavement.

Now, CatKnight's real issue here - the underlying issue - is the Finances (edit) and I fully agree and back up his statements 100%.

I am just adding a new "view" for Clay & and the Mogul programmers to see. I've been playing mogul since 2003 and sincerely hope these MAJOR ISSUES are looked into.

FRENCHREDSOX
05-01-2008, 03:25 AM
Now, CatKnight's real issue here - the underlying issue - is the expenses and I fully agree and back up his statements 100%.

I am just adding a new "view" for Clay & and the Mogul programmers to see. I've been playing mogul since 2003 and sincerely hope these MAJOR ISSUES are looked into.

Not EXPENSES but FINANCES,Matt simply run any year (from 1901 on) DONT do anything & sim for 30 years & look WHO dominate - it isnt the BEST expenses BUT the HIGHEST REVENUE.

BM "snowball" effect - you win,you get more money,you max expenses & sign FAs & fan base increases.Which to MORE wins & more money etc etc Thus DYNASTIES.That is why Rosters are stable from Y0 to Y4 & then "flame-out" :(
MONEY = WINS = DYNASTIES = + MONEY

mattygerst
05-01-2008, 03:27 AM
Sorry, I meant Finances (I have just said Expenses a bajillion times tonight referring to my own thread).

You're right & I did mean finances.

GreenDiamond2
05-01-2008, 03:37 AM
Out of curiousity, when you reset everyone scouting to equal was there any correlation to market size?

Agree that other team scout info should be able to be locked out, and an option should be made to simply hide the info.

Sliders are a good idea, at least as an interim fix, seems to be a huge issue for a lot of players. Sliders might also let people arrive at what are functional settings fairly rapidly.

Wouldn't mind having an option or slider that had the AI make decisions based more on stats as their scouting levels declined, more on ratings as it increased. Teams which aren't investing in scouting heavily might be more trusting of actual field reports and hard numbers than those which have a lot of faith in their scouts.

not sure of the best way to implement, but it might help to have a slider along the lines of "Reliance on Scout Grade". This differentiates from the "Scouts vs Stats" slider in that teams with effective scouts would use them and those with ineffective scouts might trend more towards the production numbers.

One thing I like about the game is having the various sliders, although I wish the help section was clearer about some of the effects. People have different opinions about how the game should work, sliders go a long way in this regard.

Would be nice to be able to save various game setting profiles as well.

3RunHomer
05-01-2008, 11:47 AM
Two thumbs up. Sliders for farm system and scouting would be a huge improvement.