Catchers and Fieldeing ratings

[gRYFYN1]

OK, so i keep reading that a catchers fielding rating has an effect on pitchers performance .

I ran a few sims and notice almost no difference at all. What stats are supposedly effected by these stats ?

[HoustonGM]

The pitchers give up more runs.

Run a sim with a catcher rated 65 in Fielding (or something really low), and then run one with a good fielidng catcher, like 80+, and you should see the difference.

[gRYFYN1]

ok i ran 4 X 2 sims with The Braves (turned injuries to -100%), the 1st seasons i used Piazze(67) and Lecroy(67) as my catchers:

TeamERA (runs) -- 4.60(789) -- 4.11(713) -- 4.40(747) -- 4.22(715)

Next i used Mauer(97) and Cash(98)

TeamERA (runs) -- 4.13(729) -- 4.40(757) -- 4.45(769) -- 4.49(784)


who else has run sims, and what kinda results were there

[jcbarr]

Is that their fielding rating in ()s or their overall?

[gRYFYN1]

Is that their fielding rating in ()s or their overall?

fielding rating

[jcbarr]

So in these sims the teams were exactly the same? Nothing was different other than the catchers that were behind the plate?

If that is the case then I would love to see multiple sims done to see if this thing does show some variance or if it really is only perception here.

[HoustonGM]

Try converting a non-catcher to catcher, then run a sim.

[jcbarr]

That will no doubt cause a ton of problems. I have done that in the past and the whole team went to **** in a handbag. I had guys who had an ERA of 3.50 the year before go to around 7 or so.

[gRYFYN1]

I did,

2 years with Texeria catching : 4.62(872) ; 4.79(863)

Brent Lilibrige : 4.06 (754) ; 4.29(804)

It just seems that the difference is there but not nearly as much as everyone seems to say.

[HoustonGM]

That's really strange...

[Alloutwar]

Yah man- any chance you have a simulation slider way off or something?

I have two catchers on my horrible, horrible team; the second-string catcher is a great hitter, but his fielding and handlnig are like 57 and 67. A pitcher that usually gives up 3 runs, usually gives up 8+ with him behind the plate. As others have stated, it's a rather large differential.

[gRYFYN1]

OK a few more sims : 10 total for each

catcher ratings of 67/67 --

ERA -- High(4.73) -- Mean(4.40) -- Median(4.44) -- Low(4.04)
Runs -- 837 -- 762 -- 762 -- 713

Catcher rating 97/98 --

ERA -- 4.51 -- 4.25 -- 4.30 -- 3.73
Runs -- 777 -- 737 -- 735 -- 660


It just seems that the differnce between the Top rating and lowest ratings aren't all that much, only about a 5% increase to ERA and runs
allowed.

I used FRS roster sets, the only thing i changed was injuries to -100%. The difficulty was at "Fan" i run some at mogul and see if there any difference.

[gosensgo101]

The difficulty won't matter. It just affects your finances and willingness for the AI to trade with you.

[SirKodiak]

what version are you using? Maybe Clay made a change?

[gRYFYN1]

I am using v11.10

And yes the diff level does have and effect on performance.

On Mogul rating 10 seasons high-median-mean-low

Bad catchers

ERA 4.92 -- 4.56--4.57--4.26
Runs 848--797--809--746

Good Catchers

ERA 4.71--4.45--4.41--3.74
Runs 808 --768--757--681

But, same general spread only about a 5% increase of the WORST catching tandem over the best.

Had anyone else run actual numbers on this or was this just an assumed theory?

[HoustonGM]

And yes the diff level does have and effect on performance.
It doesn't.


Had anyone else run actual numbers on this or was this just an assumed theory?
The numbers have been run. Can't find the thread though.

The results you're getting are honestly really odd...

[gRYFYN1]

It doesn't.

.

I find that basically impposibe.

I just simulated 20 seasons with the 2008 Braves, I exceeded the projected win total of 90 exactly ZERO times! I lost more than 90 games twice! and lost more than I won over 3000 games played.

on mogul Texeria and Chipper had troube batting .300, Tex has several seasons where he batted in the .270s

Yet on fan rating it was totally opposite, While i dont remebr all of them and only noted my WL record in about half of the the 1st round of sims i have more 90+ win seasons in those 10 (4) than all 20 on mogul rating.

These are far far far from "standard devaition"

[HoustonGM]

There is nothing in the difficulty level code that alters how players play. It'd be against the entire logic of a simulation.


The 'Difficulty' setting under 'Finances and Computer GMs' lets you change the difficulty level of the financial engine and computer artificial intelligence.

[gRYFYN1]

Then it simply must be that the AI is playing them better -- better matchups -- better sub decsions etc, because there is a difference that over another 10 X10 seasons with Atlanta I wne from 88.8 to 82.5 wins, and over another 20 seasons with the Mets went from 99.4 to 95.5.

[jcbarr]

That would make a little bit of sense. If the CPU AI is turned up a little it would make sense that it is harder to win games as a human owned player. But it shouldn't have any impact on how the players actually play, just who might actually be available to play, if that makes any sense.

[HoustonGM]

That would make a little bit of sense. If the CPU AI is turned up a little it would make sense that it is harder to win games as a human owned player. But it shouldn't have any impact on how the players actually play, just who might actually be available to play, if that makes any sense.
Right. The difficulty does not make it so that players perform worse, is the point.

[ohms_law]

That's really strange...

Not really. The scoring has been fixed, so the effect on pitchers ERA's is very limited. Most of the effect of bad pitching is caused by passed balls and wild pitches.

[HoustonGM]

Not really. The scoring has been fixed, so the effect on pitchers ERA's is very limited. Most of the effect of bad pitching is caused by passed balls and wild pitches.
When was this change made?

[ohms_law]

Last year.

[HoustonGM]

:confused: hm.

[ohms_law]

Someone definitely needs to re-run the experiment, as gRYFYN1 has started to do here. I'm not surprised that he's not seeing as much of a difference now. The last time I really checked this out was with Mogul 2007 (about mid-year), and Clay has really tightened up the scoring code for all sorts of things since then.

I still personally feel that catchers have too large of an effect, but 90% of the impact seen in Worst Collapse of Pitching ever? (http://forum.sportsmogul.com/showthread.php?t=117651&highlight=worst+collapse+pitching) was due to scoring problems.

[jcbarr]

I know that in the 08 version it was still there. I know that a lot of people had complained and something was supposedly going to be done about it. It appears that it was. Which is a good thing :)

[ohms_law]

It was a problem for most of Mogul 2008, but was fixed by the end of the year... because I fixed the last of the earned runs problems.
:)
I'm not sure if that ever made it to an official patch though.

I think Clay worked on getting overall run scoring more correct over the winter as well. I think.

[lostraven]

Not really. The scoring has been fixed, so the effect on pitchers ERA's is very limited. Most of the effect of bad pitching is caused by passed balls and wild pitches.

I ran across this and wanted to see if I could probe a little further.
I have one SP in particular that just has a nasty, nasty WP count
(35+ two seasons in a row). It seems to be the exception more
than the rule in the league. I'm trying to find other SP with counts
that high by looking at low control pitchers with 200+ innings
but I'm failing to find too many. During these two seasons, he had
a CON of 77, POW of 88, and MOV of 90 with four pitches rated
84 or above. Additionally, the catcher had a handling of 85 both
seasons. It's not like they were crap players.

I guess my question is... are WP completely randomized by the AI
or is there some statistic that creates a higher percentage chance
of having WP? I thought it was Control but at least for this player,
it doesn't entirely seem to be the case.

-lostie

[ohms_law]

Control is the largest factor. Pitch types also have an effect though, and GB/FB or GB% plays a role as well.

[lostraven]

Control is the largest factor. Pitch types also have an effect though, and GB/FB or GB% plays a role as well.

Interesting. Thanks for the info. He's a 35% GB pitcher. It has me
wondering though if Hard Slider and Hard Curve yield more WP. He
had both, granted at very good levels, but still. These types of
"breaking" pitches should tend to yield more WP in real baseball, yah?

-lostie

[HoustonGM]

Pitchers also have a number of "predicted" Wild Pitches which goes into it (which factor into their Control rating).

[ghettostar]

Personally I always asumed that fielding rating on a catcher didnt effect the pitcher effectiveness-would just effect his ability to prevent passed balls. i always thought that handling effected how he 'handled' a pitcher. Only made sense to me. But i was recently told it was fielding by those that should know. Why would clay call the range rating on a catcher "handling" and his 'handling' of a pitcher "fielding"? I would like to see some sims done with catchers of the same fielding yet one with lower "handling".


There is nothing in the difficulty level code that alters how players play. It'd be against the entire logic of a simulation.


I would have to disagree with you here HGM. Ive played on manager level since mogul 06 but recently started using mogul difficulty and noticed a rather prominent difference. It states in the help file that the mogul rating effects only AI intelligence and finances. I noticed however that with PBP mode in both manager and player (pitch by pitch), my pitchers showed a noticeable decrease in control and gave up a considerable amount of more homeruns. Of course it was more realistic and i enjoy the increased difficulty however there are differences other than those listed by the help file. Also the batters seem to 'see' certain pitches better. For instance I used to could get many a hitter to swing early or completely miss a slurve. Was my strikeout pitch aswell as the sinker high in the strike zone. Now that i increased to mogul difficulty the slurve has been rendered useless as a strikeout pitch-the batters almost always make contact for a foul or grounder. The sinker continues to be extremely efective high in the strike zone however so it has become my new go-to pitch.

[HoustonGM]

The pitch-by-pitch mode is different from the rest of the game. The difficulty level makes the AI smarter, and maybe has an effect on the control, I don't know. I'm talking about in simming and Manager mode though. The difficulty mode does not make your players perform worse. They perform just as they would using any other difficulty level.

[ghettostar]

The pitch-by-pitch mode is different from the rest of the game. The difficulty level makes the AI smarter, and maybe has an effect on the control, I don't know. I'm talking about in simming and Manager mode though. The difficulty mode does not make your players perform worse. They perform just as they would using any other difficulty level.

I also noticed the difference in manager mode aswell, not lack of control per say but that the hitters had more success against my pitchers.
I believe that it was Ohms quoting clay or it was just clay (cant recall) that play-by-play engine used the same simulation settings and generated the same stats as the sim engine. Did i word that correctly? They go off the same thing, the only difference is that on one I could 'see' whats going on whereas with the sim I dont. I could have misinterpreted some information at some point and it does make sense that these would be two completely different animals. i suppose I couldnt vouch for the sim-just the play-by-play mode.

[HoustonGM]

I also noticed the difference in manager mode aswell, not lack of control per say but that the hitters had more success against my pitchers.
Than it was purely perception.


I believe that it was Ohms quoting clay or it was just clay (cant recall) that play-by-play engine used the same simulation settings and generated the same stats as the sim engine. Did i word that correctly? They go off the same thing, the only difference is that on one I could 'see' whats going on whereas with the sim I dont. I could have misinterpreted some information at some point and it does make sense that these would be two completely different animals. i suppose I couldnt vouch for the sim-just the play-by-play mode.
Yes, they use the same engine.

[ghettostar]

Than it was purely perception.


thats entirely possible HGM, but I went from having two 20 game winners with 1 cy young award and both with under 3 eras (carlos silva, zach grienke) on a medicore royals club-to a much more realistic rotaion era. (my rotation era before was 3.17 i believe.) My rotaion era now is a more realistic 4.10 and my most successful pitcher is 5-2 in 9 starts with a 3.25 era. granted this is a much smaller sample than i would like. It did state in the file that batters are better at 'guessing' pitches. Im assuming this would be the reason myself and gryfyn1 are noticing this disparity. As for the lack of control in pitch by pitch it must be like you said-2 different things.

[HoustonGM]

It did state in the file that batters are better at 'guessing' pitches. Im assuming this would be the reason myself and gryfyn1 are noticing this disparity. As for the lack of control in pitch by pitch it must be like you said-2 different things.
Pitch-by-pitch is likely subject to different difficulty effects than simming/Manager mode, if only because it gives complete control over every single pitch. I can't say for sure.

All I can speak of is simming and Manager/GM mode, in which the difficulty level does not effect the performance of players, and any difference you notice is purely coincidental.

[ghettostar]

Pitch-by-pitch is likely subject to different difficulty effects than simming/Manager mode, if only because it gives complete control over every single pitch. I can't say for sure.

All I can speak of is simming and Manager/GM mode, in which the difficulty level does not effect the performance of players, and any difference you notice is purely coincidental.

Im with you on the pitch by pitch mode but the help file does state that batters are better at guessing pitches thus would be more successful against pitchers correct? Yet it would work both ways so getting less wins couldnt be attributed to this i admit.


How do we end up debating so damn much HGM? Im going to eat dinner you have worn me out. :p

[HoustonGM]

Im with you on the pitch by pitch mode but the help file does state that batters are better at guessing pitches thus would be more successful against pitchers correct? Yet it would work both ways so getting less wins couldnt be attributed to this i admit.
I don't think batters "guess" the pitch while simming. Ohms could confirm that. That's a pitch-by-pitch thing, though, I'm pretty sure.


How do we end up debating so damn much HGM? Im going to eat dinner you have worn me out. :p
We're not really debating here, but discussing.

[ghettostar]

We're not really debating here, but discussing.


As far as belligerent sounding goes, 'discussing' is the lesser of the two-so ill take it.':)

Dinner was marvelous btw, i highly recommend hispanic women for various reasons- not the least of which is their ability to cook.

[Rongar]

I would have to disagree with you here HGM. Ive played on manager level since mogul 06 but recently started using mogul difficulty and noticed a rather prominent difference. It states in the help file that the mogul rating effects only AI intelligence and finances. I noticed however that with PBP mode in both manager and player (pitch by pitch), my pitchers showed a noticeable decrease in control and gave up a considerable amount of more homeruns. Of course it was more realistic and i enjoy the increased difficulty however there are differences other than those listed by the help file. (At Mogul level)Also the batters seem to 'see' certain pitches better. For instance I used to could get many a hitter to swing early or completely miss a slurve. Was my strikeout pitch aswell as the sinker high in the strike zone. Now that i increased to mogul difficulty the slurve has been rendered useless as a strikeout pitch-the batters almost always make contact for a foul or grounder. The sinker continues to be extremely efective high in the strike zone however so it has become my new go-to pitch.

I have often posted that I believe that while playing in "Pitch-by-pitch" mode at Mogul level, my control over my pitchers is impaired.

I don't mind the AI playing better against me, but for it to affect my own performance, I consider bugly.

I'm grateful to Ghettostar for the skinny on which pitches work, or not, in PBP at Mogul level ...I will paste them in the scouting report for my various teams.

[ghettostar]

I'm grateful to Ghettostar for the skinny on which pitches work, or not, in PBP at Mogul level ...I will paste them in the scouting report for my various teams.


I would love to give a run down on how to pitch to the ai in player mode, if in fact you are interested. Ive studied every pitch and the results. i would also like to hear from your experience aswell.

[ohms_law]

Pitchers also have a number of "predicted" Wild Pitches which goes into it (which factor into their Control rating).

When it comes down to it, this is actually the only reason why any pitcher (in game) has any wild pitches.

The question though is really "why does this player have so many predicted wild pitches?" Which is what I was really answering, above.


I don't think batters "guess" the pitch while simming. Ohms could confirm that. That's a pitch-by-pitch thing, though, I'm pretty sure.

They don't.

[lostraven]

When it comes down to it, this is actually the only reason why any pitcher (in game) has any wild pitches.

The question though is really "why does this player have so many predicted wild pitches?" Which is what I was really answering, above.

I appreciate the feedback on this. I'm wondering the same thing.
I pulled up the .mog files for the two seasons where the player,
Austin Bibens-Dirkx, pitched 37 and 33 wild pitches consecutively
across two seasons. I looked at the predicted WP settings at the
end of both seasons, and the guy had a predicted WP value of
16 and 16.

I'm at a loss as to why the guy was so wild those two seasons. By
all accounts, he seemed like a pretty good starter, at least judging
by all the stats. The only thing I can think of is that he was converted
from being a very good closer to being a mediocre starter despite
having good peripherals.

Just for giggles, I'll include the two Mogul files at the end of the
2013 and 2014 seasons. It's in Commish mode. You should just be
able to look up the player 'Bibens-Dirkx' and peek at it. *shrug*
This isn't vital stuff for me. I'm just trying to see if there was
some warning that I missed that said "this guy is very wild". The
Control rating didn't suggest that to me. Again, not a huge priority,
but I'm trying to see if there is anything to learn. I posted here
originally wondering if it was a catcher issue but it's not. It's
something else obviously. Thanks.

-lostie

[Rongar]

I would love to give a run down on how to pitch to the ai in player mode, if in fact you are interested. Ive studied every pitch and the results. i would also like to hear from your experience aswell.

Yes, indeedy,GS!...as we're getting a bit off-topic, I've begun a new thread on "Player" mode that I hope that you'll post your study in. I look forward to seeing it!