Dethroning Barry*

[gosensgo101]

Dethroning Barry*

Barry Bonds was much more than the home run king. Many forget that Barry Bonds began his career as a five tool player. He could field, he could throw, he could run, he could hit and he could hit it out. As his career progressed, the power grew and the speed disappeared until we had the greatest power hitter of all time.

With his major league career likely done, its time to go through the pages of history and find that special player who has that mix of defence, speed, contact, power and even patience needed to top Barry Bonds.

In order for a player to dethrone Barry Bonds he must do much more than hit 763 homeruns:

Win 9+ Gold Gloves
Steal 515+ Bases
Score 2228+ Runs
Collect 2936+ Hits
Hit 763+ HRs
Record 1997+ RBIs
Collect 2559+ Walks

This is the ultimate test for any player, in any era. To dominate every major category there is. To be skilled in each and every facet of the game. Its been done once before, but is it possible for more than one player to accomplish such a feat? And more importantly, can it be accomplished legitimately?

Potential Kings:
Hank Aaron
Carlos Beltran
Bobby Bonds
Jay Bruce
Cesar Cedeno
Ty Cobb
Sam Crawford
Eric Davis
Julio Franco
Curtis Granderson
Ken Griffey Jr.
Ricky Henderson
Mickey Mantle
Nick Markakis
Willie Mays
Joe Morgan
Albert Pujols
Carl Yastrzemski
Hanley Ramirez
Colby Rasmus
Frank Robinson
Jackie Robinson
Alex Rodriguez
Babe Ruth
Jimmy Sheckard
Grady Sizemore
Alfonso Soriano
Sammy Sosa
Ichiro Suzuki
Honus Wagner
Zack Wheat
David Wright
Chris Young

Comments: This does not replace A New Era Takes Flight - The 2008 Toronto Blue Jays (http://forum.sportsmogul.com/showthread.php?t=174898). It is merely a side project that I can do whenever I'm on this computer. This concept is based on a dynasty jcbarr wrote a while back, Can He Beat Pete Rose? (http://forum.sportsmogul.com/showthread.php?t=148982). Please post any players who you believe have a chance at completing this feat so I have a good pool to choose from.

I will take control of the player's team during the first season where the player has an overall rating of 70 in commish mode, but no later than his actual rookie season. I will control the team and the player will never switch teams. I will attempt to field the best team possible within my budget. The player will likely bat in the top 4 slots in the order in order to maximize his chance at these accomplishments. Once the player retires I will post the results.

[YEAH DAAAAWG]

A-Rod, Mays, and Griffey Jr. are really the only ones with a realistic, for lack of a better term, at such a wide range of accomplishments. Babe Ruth possibly as well.

[bwit43]

Stan the Man

[RedsoxRockies]

If started young, Beltran may surprisingly be viable. Same with Chris Young. They have 4-5 tools. Also Soriano, and Ricky Henderson, who over performs in BM vastly. Because remember, speed is needed for some of Bonds records, plus Henderson offers the eye that formed the walks record that Bonds broke. So who better to lead that category than the former record holder himself

[YEAH DAAAAWG]

Henderson doesn't have the power, Soriano doesn't have the patience at the plate/eye/walk ability. Beltran could I suppose, but I doubt that too. Young has ZERO chance.

[metsguy234]

Maybe David Wright...

[YEAH DAAAAWG]

Mantle would be a good candidate. I'm not sure how BBM deals with Roberto Clemente and his fatal plane crash, but he could probably get at some of those numbers.

[DarthJaker]

evan longoria colby rasmus albert pujols sammy sosa ryan ludwick

[YEAH DAAAAWG]

ROFL. Ryan Ludwick? Really, you're kidding, right?

Sosa and Pujols don't have the speed, Sosa doesn't have the glove, Rasmus probably doesn't have the power. Longoria could, but hes probably a little too slow as well, hes the only one I'd give better than a snowball's chance in **** off that list though.

EDIT: Hank Aaron, Joe Dimaggio, Yaz, and Frank Robinson would all be good candidates as well.

[DarthJaker]

ROFL. Ryan Ludwick? Really, you're kidding, right?

Sosa and Pujols don't have the speed, Sosa doesn't have the glove, Rasmus probably doesn't have the power. Longoria could, but hes probably a little too slow as well, hes the only one I'd give better than a snowball's chance in **** off that list though.

i meant ludwick if he had numbers like this year!

[asianinvasion]

Henderson doesn't have the power,

Yeah, but as said before, BBM overrates Henderson and he always has the 93-97 power rating.

[CatKnight]

I'd like to see Clemente.....the problem is in any era before the present, the candidate is going to have a real challenge hitting 762 HR. If these candidates were magically transported (via roster edit) into the modern era, THEN the field opens up.

[jcbarr]

Not to hijack the thread, but I actually did finish one of these before. I did a can he beat Cy Young one that was very interesting to say the least.

You can view it here;

http://forum.sportsmogul.com/showthread.php?t=145625

I might actually finish up the Can He Beat Pete Rose one too.

[reflections]

Sometimes I do forget Barry was once the best.
Stupid HGH

[Honolulu Blue]

An interesting concept, but a tall order. Willie could do it, as could Jr. and A. Rod. They could all use a little help from the era settings. Mays would need more SBs, Griffey and Alex more walks (and give Griffey a better health rating).

Some others who have a chance with a little push and a lot of luck:

* Honus Wagner
* Ty Cobb
* Mickey Mantle
* Cesar Cedeno

[jcbarr]

No way. There is only one guy on that list that would hit enough Home Runs to do it. Personally I don't think that there is any player that has already played that will put up those kinds of total numbers. The walks, the homers, the RBI, the stolen bases when he was young.

It's gonna be a tough tough thing for anyone to even come close to doing.

[filihok]

How about Eric Davis who struggled through injury to put up these career numbers:

17 Seasons
1626 Games
5321 AB's
938 Runs
1430 Hits
239 2B
26 3B
282 HR
934 RBI
740 BB
1398 K'S
349 SB
.270 BA
.359 OBA
.482 SLG

Ahh..who am I kidding...no chance...he was a **** of a player though

[PotatoOfCouch13]

I gotta agree with jcbarr here: individual categories yes, all of them no.

Look, Barry Bonds (even before the performance-enhancement scandal) was a 5-tool player. Just take a look at those numbers that Gosensgo posted:

Win 9+ Gold Gloves
Steal 515+ Bases
Score 2228+ Runs
Collect 2936+ Hits
Hit 763+ HRs
Record 1997+ RBIs
Collect 2559+ Walks

I can see all of those milestones falling to individuals (with the possible exception of walks, that guy walked a ton!), but one man getting all of them? I think that's highly unlikely.

Barry Bonds would've gone down in history as one of the greatest all-around players of all time. Instead, he's got the Feds on his tail, and a dubious distinction as the face of the steroid era.

Alright, I'm off my soapbox...

[reflections]

It would be interesting to use some of the guys in the early 20's and 30's but on a 162 game schedule that way they don't lose games.
Also whenever I start historical seasons and keep the settings on default, there are usually a few guys who get impressive amounts of home runs and stolen bases early. Jimmy Sheckard being one of them. And the pitchers in the early years were giving out massive amounts of walks and hits.

[RedsoxRockies]

Again, I think Henderson has the best chance, just because of how he over performs. Once for me he put up these numbers:

2872 Runs More than Barry
3622 hits More than Barry
818 2B's Far more than Barry
99 3b's More than Barry
676 HR's only 86 short
2343 RBI's More than Barry
2400 BB's 1-2 peak seasons short
1254 SB Far more


ROY (1980)
18 time all star
8-time MVP

1979-2002 (some years at end of career on bench and in 79 was a september call up)

His only problem was below average defense

[twinsGM]

I really don't think you'll get anyone with all those numbers, but it'll be interesting to see what player get closest.

[gosensgo101]

Wow, I wasn't expecting this much input. I'll start with all the players suggested.

*****************

Alex Rodriguez

Already on the list. I have him as the top candidate

Willie Mays

Already on the list. Probobly the 2nd best candidate.

Ken Griffey Jr

Already on the list. Probobly the 3rd most likely

Babe Ruth

Added to the list. He showed some speed during his career, so I guess it might be possible. I'll start him off as a hitter and see what happens.

Carlos Beltran

Added to the list. He's got a shot, especially if I can build a good team around him.

Alfonso Soriano

Added to the list. If he's dominate enough he could draw some intentional walks. I doubt he'll make that category but he should be able to get close in the others.

Ricky Henderson

Added to the list. I've seen him with great power numbers as well.

Chris Young

Added to the list. Depending on if he develops a good average, its possible.

David Wright

Added to the list. I was thinking of him myself. He has decent speed, and he's good at all other parts of his game.

Mickey Mantle

Added to the list. He had some decent speed during the middle of his career, so its worht a shot.

Roberto Clemente

Added to the list. Never had too much speed, but it'll be interesting to see how he does witha full career. I'll edit his death year if need be.

Colby Rasmus

Added to the list. Its possible if he develops well.

Albert Pujols

Added to the list. Good bat, good glove and he's shown a little bit of speed.

Sammy Sosa

Added to the list. Has a great chance at the offensive numbers. He's won gold gloves for me in mogul before, so its possible.

Hank Aaron

Added to the list. Forgot about him while making the list. He's got a (relatively) good chance.

Carl Yastrzemski

Added to the list. Its possible.

Frank Robinson

Added to the list. Maybe managing held him back.

Honus Wagner

Added to the list. Blast from the past. There's typically more power than there was historically during the dead ball era, so its worth a shot.

Ty Cobb

Added to the list. See above. They say he could have hit more than Ruth if he put his mind to it.

Cesar Cedeno

Added to the list. Good overall player. He just needs to become a great overall player.

Eric Davis

Added to the list. I agree, helluva player. We'll see if injuries really did doom him.

Jimmy Sheckard

Added to the list. I guess if the dead ball era becomes moe powerful.

Ichiro Suzuki

Added to the list. Not mentioned, but if he plays a full career and adds that power potential, he could do it.

Jackie Robinson

Added to the list. Not mentioned, but if he starts at a young age he could do quite well for himself.

Bobby Bonds

Added to the list. Not mentioned, but he was a good player himself. Plus, it`ll be interesting to see how Barry`s father stacks up against him.

Stan Musial

Nope. Too slow. Maybe if I get through everyone else I'll try. But he was strictly a hitter.

Evan Longoria

Nope. Doesn't have any speed.

Ryan Ludwick

Nope. I smell a homer pick.

Joe Dimaggio

Nope. No speed whatsoever.

******************

I agree that its highly unlikely someone will dethrone him in every category, especially walks, but it will be interesting to see who comes closest.

******************

I need some input on a few things.

Settings

I`m probobly just going to go with default, maybe tweak a few things for competitive purposes. All of the .ini`s will be according to HGM's readme.

Start

When should I start? First year out of the draft? Real rookie year? Whichever year he's Major League ready? He'll be on the Major League Roster right out of the gate from whenever I start.

Anything else?

Anyone have any suggestions?

******************

I'm going to start with a "control" sim with the King himself, Barry Bonds, once I decide on the settings and the start, etc.

[bwit43]

are you gonna edit players health ratings at all?

[RedsoxRockies]

He would probably have too, unless he wants an extra challenge

[PotatoOfCouch13]

Love the Jimmy Sheckard inclusion. Whenever I play in 1901, I make sure to grab him, b/c he always does well for me.

Also, maybe add Sam Crawford to the list. He's another turn of the century player that I've had great success with in terms of power and steals.

And one more, how about Joe Morgan?

[jcbarr]

Sam Crawford is the man, but he will never steal enough bases. That is the problem with most of the guys on the list. They won't steal bases unless you up the team strategy and bat them leadoff.

[gosensgo101]

Sam Crawford

Added to the list. He was the full package. Mogul should inflate his flower numbets, so its possible.

Joe Morgan

Added to the list. If he can get the power numbers up, you never know.

Julio Franco

Added to the list. I've had him become a great 5 tool player before. Average over .300, around 30 homers, 15 steals (I had the slider way down), and he could have one a gold glove at 3 different positions. The longevity should help as well.

***************

Health

As long as you guys are okay with it, I'll give everyone A+ health.

Settings & Start

Look at my last post. I'd like to have some input on those two issues.

[Coach Owens]

Joe Dimaggio

Nope. No speed whatsoever.



How does DiMaggio have "no speed whatsoever"? True, he didn't steal a lot of bases, but he did average twelve triples a year.

[YEAH DAAAAWG]

How does DiMaggio have "no speed whatsoever"? True, he didn't steal a lot of bases, but he did average twelve triples a year.

Triples are a luck stat. Plus, if I'm not mistaken, he played in Yankee Stadium before they brought the walls into where they are now and it was A LOT deeper to the power alleys.

[Coach Owens]

Triples are a luck stat. Plus, if I'm not mistaken, he played in Yankee Stadium before they brought the walls into where they are now and it was A LOT deeper to the power alleys.

You can't luck into an average of 12 triples a year. It takes skill. That's why the record is only 309.

[YEAH DAAAAWG]

Even so, triples aren't a good measure of a players speed.

[Coach Owens]

Even so, triples aren't a good measure of a players speed.

You have to have speed. Otherwise players like John Olerud, Edgar Martinez, Mo Vaughn, Bengie, Jose and Yadier Molina, Albert Pujols and other good hitters would all have had more. Plus, DiMaggio did play center field for most of his career and we all know that you have to have a lot of range, which usually means you need some speed, to play it as well as he did.

[Sanji Watsuki]

Zack Wheat? He always does well for me in sims, regardless of his real life performance.

[Dirty Birds]

Really interesting way to look at things to test out the major "what-if's"

Here are my choices though:

Nick Markakis - has the speed but has yet to truly use it.

Griffey Jr. of course - but as stated, you'd certainly have to fix up his health.

Bobby Bonilla - maybe...

Mickey Mantle - does he really have the speed though..?

Wonder if Joe Morgan would have a shot under the right circumstances..

Jackie Robinson - if not for the color barrier we'd probably speak of Jackie Robinson as being one of the best ball players of all time..period.

[dannymac910]

I think we found him.

[gosensgo101]

Joe Dimaggio

Okay, let me fire up a a game in 1936, his rookie year. Only 4 predicted steals at his peak. Playing out the season with the strategies for stealing and hit and run all the way up he ends up with just 1 in 3 tries in 142 games. So, no.

Zack Wheat

Added to the list. Same situation as all the old-timers.

Nick Markakis

Added to the list. He stole 18 last year, so its possible.

Ken Griffey Jr.

Already on the list. I think I'm going to give everyone A+ health so they have as shot.

Bobby Bonilla

Not enough speed

Mickey Mantle

Already on the list. He's got enough speed to make it possible.

Joe Morgan

Already on the list. Yup, that's what I'm thinking.

Jackie Robinson

Already on the list. Yeah, with a full career, he could be extra beastly.

Ty Cobb

Already on the list. I guess we'll see how much power he develops.

[gosensgo101]

I was thinking of somehow making a points system. Should I weight all the categories the same, or should I give some more importance?

The categories are:

HR
Hits
RBIs
Runs
SB
Walks
Gold Gloves

[YEAH DAAAAWG]

Perhaps weight the ones he led in heavier, otherwise weight them the same.

[YEAH DAAAAWG]

BTW, you might want to throw MVP award in there too, he won 7 of them I think.

[RedsoxRockies]

How about the hits total divided by 100 times 3, HR/10, RBI/100 times 3, Runs/100 times 3, BB/100 times 2, SB/10, and the gold glove total times 10 for a points system. This Brings all stats to a simular level.

For an example, here is Bonds scoring with this system:


9 Gold Gloves tmes 10 = 90
515 Bases /10= 51.5
2228 Runs /100 times 3 = 66.84
2936 Hits /100 times 3= 88.08
763 HRs /10= 76.3
1997 RBIs= 59.91
2559 Walks= 51.8


TOTAL = 484.43 CSD

A little complex, but it works. I will call my new statistic "Career Stat Division", or "CSD"

[PotatoOfCouch13]

That's pretty complex, but I think it might be one of the best ways to fairly rate everyone.

[YEAH DAAAAWG]

It looks ok, but I think hits are weighted too heavily. If Barry gets 88 points from that and he didn't even hit the magic 3,000 guys like Cobb and Henderson could get 120+ from that, in all likelihood.

[RedsoxRockies]

yeah it does have some flaws, but changes could be made to it. Maybe Change the times 3 hits multiplier to times 2, which would give barry 58.72 points for hits. However I was not sure if this seemed to low, but I guess its good.

[Honolulu Blue]

I've thought of two point systems that could work. I'll explain the easier one first. Each category listed (GGs, HRs, etc.) is worth one point. If a player matches or exceeds Bonds, he gets a point. If he doesn't match him, that's zero. A perfect score would be 7, but it could be stated so that the highest point scorer "wins".

The more complicated one goes like this... 100 points for each category. If (for example) a player wins 3 Gold Gloves in his career, he would earn 33 points in that category. If he gets 10 GGs, that's 100 points - the max (I don't feel it's fair to give out bonus points for exceeding Barry in any category, but others may feel differently). Add 'em up and you'll get your score - 700 max, but the highest scorer may take this.

Oh, and go Cesar!!!

[CatKnight]

Well, working off the last. For each category you mentioned:

Player X / Barry * 100

So for example if someone gets 762 HR tying Bonds... that's 762/762 = 1 * 100 = 100. If he only gets 600 that's 78.7 (79) points.

That way at least we're sure each stat/category you care about gets equal time.

[boomboom]

Well, working off the last. For each category you mentioned:

Player X / Barry * 100

So for example if someone gets 762 HR tying Bonds... that's 762/762 = 1 * 100 = 100. If he only gets 600 that's 78.7 (79) points.

That way at least we're sure each stat/category you care about gets equal time.
Good work Cat Knight...
I think this would be the best way to do it as well, as well as the most simple. :)

[RedsoxRockies]

simpler than mine

[scooterbracy]

Well, working off the last. For each category you mentioned:

Player X / Barry * 100

So for example if someone gets 762 HR tying Bonds... that's 762/762 = 1 * 100 = 100. If he only gets 600 that's 78.7 (79) points.

That way at least we're sure each stat/category you care about gets equal time.

I think this is a great way to go. The only suggestion I have is to add a cap as to how many points a player can get in one category. I'll use Rickey Henderson as my example.

Barry Bonds
Gold Gloves: 8; Runs: 2227; Hits: 2935; Home Runs: 762; RBI: 1996; Walks: 2558; Stolen Bases: 514
Rickey Henderson
Gold Gloves: 1; Runs: 2295; Hits: 3055; Home Runs: 297; RBI: 1115; Walks: 2190; Stolen Bases: 1406

13+103+104+39+56+86+274=675 in seven categories.

A 13 point category, as well as a 39 and 56 pointer, are basically covered by his 274 point stolen base category.

Sure, that's a freak thing, but, while it's highly unlikely, it's not entirely unbelieveable for Henderson to steal 1500+ bases in BBM, or that a player like Mays wins 18-20 gold gloves. I think those are the only two categories that Bonds can possibly be doubled up on, but the fact that Henderson, in real life, nearly "matched" Bonds numbers (700 being all things equal?), a cap just makes sense.

Either that or a penalty for not reaching half of Bonds total. Henderson would be penalized for not winning Gold Gloves or hitting enough Home Runs.


Unless of course, you were saying 100 points being the max; in which case, ignore this altogther.

[filihok]

Unless of course, you were saying 100 points being the max; in which case, ignore this altogther.

100 points couldn't be the max, because then it would be impossible to beat Barry...all you could do would be tie him, even if you beat him in each statistic.

I still don't think the era of the player is being factored in enough.

Babe Ruth's home run totals in the early 20's, though less than B*nds' 2000's numbers were clearly more impressive when compared to other hitters of the time.

[gosensgo101]

I was thinking of something like CatKnight's suggestion if I was going to have each category weighted evenly. I was just exploring the possibility of giving different categories different weights.

I'll either do a point system or just a percentage.

On to having a cap, I'll address that when it comes up. I'm leaning towards just doing how much of a percentage of Barry's performance he managed. Once you get 100% that's it. But I could change my mind.

The last thing on my mind before beginning is when to start. I'll throw a few ideas out their and let you guys debate (i.e. do my dirty work) :D

1 Rookie Season

This is the simple way. Just start when the player started in real life. This would give some players a disadvantage though. (Ichiro and Jackie Robinson to name a few) I could just make exceptions for players who started late though.

2 Straight out of High School

This way I would start the first year the player's in the game and put him straight into the bigs.

3 First Pro Season

This way I would start the first year the player's in the game and keep him in the minors until he was major league ready.

4 Straight out of the Draft

This way I would start when he's in the draft class. I would sim through the draft and take control of his team. Then I'd put him straight into the bigs.

5 Draft Normally

This way I would start when he's in the draft class. I would sim through the draft and take control of his team. Then I'd keep him in the minors until he's major league ready.

6 Major League Ready

I'll check games between the first year he's in the system until his rookie year. Whichever year he's major league ready (using my discretion) I'll start.

***************

Personally, I don't like the idea of putting him straight in the show ASAP. I'd rather either develop him or just start when he's ready for the show. Having him be drafted would be interesting. My preference goes 6/1/3/5/2/4

[PotatoOfCouch13]

I think I like option 3. That way, you can speed the process along if he's doing well, and keep tabs on the players easily. For example, you can start him with the big club when he's 20 as opposed to reality when he was 22.

[RedsoxRockies]

Yea 3 sounds best

[gosensgo101]

My only concern about number 3 is that it lowers the odds of becoming the player he actually was. If I start later, then he should be closer to his own self.

Then again, that could be a good thing, since some of these guys will need to develop a bit differently (i.e. better) to do this.

If I do 3 or any of the ones that involve starting the players, I'll make sure my farm is number 1 and I'll probobly fast track him. (somewhat)

[gosensgo101]

A few more additions before we get going. Keep the suggestions coming though if anyone pops into your mind, even if the player just did well in a dynasty of yours but not in real life.

Grady Sizemore

He's a legitimate 5-tool player IRL, he just needs to up the power a little bit to give Barry some competition.

Russell Martin

He's decent, if not great in each part of the game. I also wanted to throw a catcher into the mix.

******************

I've decided to go with option 3, since a bit of disparity in development is probobly needed to accomplish this feat.

******************

I'll be using version 11.13 since I've found that quite stable and its got a few improvements over 11.10.

******************

Up next: Barry Bonds preview

I'll be doing a so-called control test with Barry so we can compare with both the real-life Barry and the Mogul version of Barry.

[boomboom]

I would do a new thread for this :)

[jcbarr]

Heck, with all the guys that you have lined up for this, I might consider doing a new thread for every few or so.

[gosensgo101]

I might not even get to them all since I'm not sure how often I will post. I think I'll just keep it all in this thread. I'll just put links to each player in the first post.

[gosensgo101]

Barry Bonds
Preview

In 1985, the Pittsburgh Pirates used their sixth overall pick to draft the son of former all-star Bobby Bonds. The younger incarnation projected much the same as Bobby. He could already run and had shown promise in all facets of hitting and fielding. The question was whether he would be forever considered the son of Bobby Bonds or would he outshine his father, making Bobby forever known as the father of Barry Bonds. Would he would develop into a speedy, slick fielding player with a decent bat, like his dad, or would he excel at all parts of the game, and become a future Hall of Famer.

As it turned out, Bobby is simply the father of the great Barry Bonds. Barry started his career not even a year after being drafted, appearing as a pinch hitter in late April, and finally breaking in as a full time major leaguer in late May, as the Pirates' starting Center Fielder.

During that first season he was the Pirates' leadoff hitter. He only hit .223, but he showed his speed, stealing 36 bases, and his power, hitting 16 homers.

Since that first season, he slowly progressed from the speedy leadoff hitter to the powerful presence in the middle of the order. He was truly a five-tool player, reaching levels of productivity in most categories, most hope for in just one.

We now turn back the clock, to 1983 when Barry is just 18 years of age. Many scouts had already recognized his talent as near major league ready as a teenager, so we will place Barry in the middle of the Pirates order right out of High School, batting third. He will be given the best opportunities to show off his skill, giving him the green light on the base paths whenever possible, and letting him swing away at will.

While he is still very raw, he already can hit the ball out of the park with the best of them, and with an outstanding eye for the strikezone combined with his presence in the batters' box, he will garner many walks. He has raw speed, but it is unknown whether he will develop the art of base stealing. In the field, he is unproven, but with his tremendous speed, he will get the chance to patrol center field in Pittsburgh. If he can hit the ball consistently and fine tune the finer parts of base stealing and fielding, he will become the Hall of Famer we have all grown to loath.

[CatKnight]

15 month injury! 15 month injury! 15 month injury!

[RedsoxRockies]

Lightning Strike! Lightning Strike! Lightning Strike!

[rockiesfan4ever]

Wild Bear! Wild Bear! Wild Bear!

[haveacigar]

would it be possible for someone to pay someone to seriously injure Barry, a la Tonya Harding/Nancy Kerrigan?

[RedsoxRockies]

how about we have an assasin come and kill an assasin who was trying to kill bonds, and then he will take out Bonds

[haveacigar]

how about we have an assasin come and kill an assasin who was trying to kill bonds, and then he will take out Bonds

what if we went back in time, stole him from bobby bonds, and groomed him to play football instead?

[CatKnight]

Why would you want to do that to the NFL? Let Bonds play in the NBA, where they fix games anyway. :)

[asianinvasion]

What about track and field. He would have been banned 5 years ago.

[haveacigar]

Why would you want to do that to the NFL? Let Bonds play in the NBA, where they fix games anyway. :)

eh, don't really like the NFL. plus, no one cares about roids there, so he'd fit right in....ALLEGEDLY

[gosensgo101]

Cat: I'm 7 or 8 years in (its on my other computer) and the only time he's missed so far is the first 5 innings of the last game of the season a few years ago after we had clinched a playoff spot. So, don't expect and injuries anytime soon.

Also, since you have such a, lets say, disdain for Barry, if you haven't caught up in my Jays dynasty, you might not want to. :D

SoxRox (That's what I'm calling you from now on :D), rockies & cigar: All worthy ideas.

Cat: Howabout the NHL since hockey is a sport where steroids don't help at all.

Asian: Have you ever seen a sprinter as big as Barry? Be realistic.

Cigar: We're not in a court of law, so you can drop the allegedly tag if you want.

Joe: And if you're a ballerina, you can hit home runs, therefore you can't become the home run king. Would that be an accurate analogy?

[asianinvasion]

Asian: Have you ever seen a sprinter as big as Barry? Be realistic.

There is always the field events like the javelin or the discus.

[CatKnight]

gosensgo: Re-Barry in Toronto:

Yes. :mad:

I saw. :eek:

....
...
...

I will pray for your soul. :(

[RedsoxRockies]

what if we went back in time, stole him from bobby bonds, and groomed him to play football instead?

How about curling instead

As for Gosensgo, I will from now on call you Goose-and-go