Good outfielders become lousy 1B - why?

[khan]

I've seen a number of players (at least 5 that I can remeber) who are good (or even great) outfielders defensively become D or D- fielders when you convert them to 1B.

They'll have B or better fielding in LF or RF and once you convert them to 1B, they start making 30-40 errors a season. The most clear example might be a gold glove RF I used to have in 2002 & Beyond. He won at least two gold gloves in RF for me. SF signed him as a FA and converted him to a 1B. His fielding went to D and he started making 40+ errors a season, whereas he never made more than 10 as a RF.

This is highly unrealistic. 1B is easier to play than RF or LF. Look at guys like Mo Vaughn, Cecil Fielder, John Kruk, etc. If they can play a good 1B, a good OF should definitely be able to play 1B well.

Has anyone else seen this happen?

[Shock]

Ummmm Cecil, Kruk, and Vaughn are at 1st for a very good reason. They were never good feilders even for a 1st baseman.
As for why a gold glove OF cant play 1b, you got me. But you dont see alot of OFers convert to 1b in the majors either? You see it the other way around but not an OF to 1b.

I think it has something to do with picking balls out of the dirt on a bad throw.
Who would you want doing that??? Mark Grace? or Ken Griffey? I will take Grace any day.

[faulk28]

he takes alot of groundballs there from what i have heard...the reds say that he could win a gold glove there if he moved to 1st...they think that may be a way to stop his hamstring injuries...

[dturkenk]

There are plenty of examples of players who moved from the outfield to first base. It tends to happen to good offensive players who just can't handle the outfield - whether because of age or just defensive inabilities.

Just off the top of my head

John Kruk actually
Orlando Cepeda (although he went 1B-OF-1B)
Ryan Klesko
Stan Musial
Pete Rose (along with a myriad of other position changes)
Harmon Killebrew (3B-OF-1B)
Dick Allen
Travis Lee (1B-OF-1B)
Billy Williams (although 1B was a short stop on the way to DHing)

I'm sure there were others, but you get the idea.

[khan]

Jason Giambi also. He used to play LF when some guy named McGwire was playing 1B in Oakland.

Giambi is not a great 1B (wasn't a great LF either), but he doesn't make 30 errors a year.

Also, I would prefer to have Junior digging balls out of the dirt than Fielder. Fielder had to go through his stomach to get to the ground.

McGwire was so bulky, he couldn't stretch. But if he could dig out ground balls, anyone can.

[Shock]

Originally posted by dturkenk
There are plenty of examples of players who moved from the outfield to first base. It tends to happen to good offensive players who just can't handle the outfield - whether because of age or just defensive inabilities.

Just off the top of my head

John Kruk actually
Orlando Cepeda (although he went 1B-OF-1B)
Ryan Klesko
Stan Musial
Pete Rose (along with a myriad of other position changes)
Harmon Killebrew (3B-OF-1B)
Dick Allen
Travis Lee (1B-OF-1B)
Billy Williams (although 1B was a short stop on the way to DHing)

I'm sure there were others, but you get the idea.



Ummmm dude did you actually understood what you typed?? You mentioned alot of of 1b players who eventually went to OF. Which was exactly my point.
I will just take 1 off your list.....Ryan Klesko was a 1b came up that way thru Atlantas system. Atlanata is the one who decided to try him out in LF......it was very ugly the first few years, but eventually he got the hang of it, but he was still a better 1b than OFer. He plays RF occassionally for the Padres also.

Again alot of players go from 1b to the OF, while very few make the transition from OF to 1B. Thanks for backing my arguement, by trying to disprove it, lol.

[dturkenk]

No. I cited players who went OF to 1B. That happens much more frequently. There are players who went from 1B to the OF because they were good enough defensive players to handle it, but in general it is much more common to make the transition from OF to 1B.

Bill James talks about a defensive spectrum that runs in terms of difficulty left to right (easiest to hardest)


[ - - 1B - LF - RF - 3B - CF - 2B - SS - C - - ]

http://www.baseball1.com/bb-data/bbd-bj1.html

As you can see, 1B is generally considered the easiest position to play - the rule is players tend to move left on the spectrum and very few move right.

[misterblond]

That last point about the 'spectrum' is absurd. While I agree with the order of difficulty, I don't see too many catchers becoming shortstops or center fielders, or a center fielder becoming a third baseman. There are obviously certain things necessary to be good at certain positions, and while there's alot of overlap, they're often mutually exclusive. (i.e. Big guy with power arm - 3B, as opposed to speedster with hands 2B.) As to the original argument, while first base is the easiest position on the field, it is possible that a guy just isn't comfortable fielding ground balls and makes a good outfielder and not a first baseman.

[Shock]

Well Bill James i consider a *****. He thinks stats can determine everything a player does.
That spectrum is a classic example of a guy with no common sense.

Players more commonly go left on the spectrum not right?? Huhh??
Pat Burrell, Adam Dunn (could be wrong), Ryan Klesko, Travis Lee, are most recent examples of 1b going to the OF........hmmmm now OFers going to 1b?? Giambi i might give ya but he came up as a 1B in his rookie year, not until his second year did he start playing LF, and he also played 3b......but as soon as Mac was gone he went to his natural position of 1b permenantly.
But Giambi didnt start off a OFer he was a 1b who went to the OF cuz 1b was taken by Big Mac.

Not a whole lot of OFers can handle 1b.....and tell Bill James how easy it is at 1b haveing to dig ground balls out of the dirt, and getting short hops from players. Its not as easy as it looks. A Good 1B will save a team 20-30 runs a year, by just doing the little things. And make his INF defense look like gold glovers.

[toner37]

Shock, no one is saying that 1B is an easy position to play, just easier than all the others. For the most part it takes the least amount of speed and agility to play (it takes some, just not as much as the outfield), and the main qualification is hand-eye coordination. That is easier to learn than speed is, which is why players USUALLY move to the left on that chart. There are always exceptions (which you named a few of) , but that is a GENERAL guideline to follow.

[dturkenk]

No one is saying players move through the positions on the spectrum in order from right to left, just that if they do switch positions it tends to be in that directions. And it doesn't guarantee success - just take a look at Chuck Knoblauch - just that's the general pattern. And often times it's not corner outfielders moving to 1B because the OF is pretty easy to play too comparitively - you see more C and 3B moving to 1B than anyone else.

And while you don't see catchers move to shortstop that often, there have been examples of catchers moving to 2B (Biggio), CF (Marrero - not full time in the OF yet), 3B (Michael Barrett), 1B (Bench, maybe Piazza in the future).


While Bill James does say that you can predict a player's performance from statistics, out of the stathead camp he is fairly moderate. He admits that there are some things that aren't captured in statistics.

I don't know why you think 1B is harder to play than the OF. Granted it's not an easy position and picking the ball out of the dirt is tough, but is it any harder than learning what route to take on a hard line drive, or how to play a ball off the wall. To me, it seems fairly clear that 1B is the easiest position to play on the field.

I also think 20-30 runs a year is a lot even for a good first baseman to save. Statistical estimates (which apparently you don't put much faith in) estimate that two of the best (if not the best) middle infielders ever Ozzie Smith and Bill Mazeroki saved between 25-35 runs per year with their gloves and from the data I could find (looks to be 1999 data) only one first baseman saved as many as 15 runs per season - fewer than other position beside RF

http://www.baseballstuff.com/fraser/articles/dpi.html

[Shock]

The diffrence is a 1B gets alot of balls thrown at him. While an OF will see far far less.
If 1B is so easy to play why do the people who move from 1b to OF far outweigh the people moveing from OF to 1b since its the easiest position?

Ya figure the easiest position, you would see more players being converted to one.

[dturkenk]

Catching a thrown ball is a lot easier than figuring out how to run down a fly ball to the gap, or figuring out how to correctly position yourself on a line drive right at you - even considering the throws in the dirt.

I'm not convinced you see far more people moved from 1B to the OF than the other way around.

Regardless of that fact, look at the positions to which people switch to most often. 3B become 1B generally, C become 1B, OF become 1B. There's always a few examples of players going from those positions to OF (Chipper, Kendall, Marrero) but by and large when a players switches positions, he switches to 1B.

[khkoenig]

Use the spectrum as a guide, not as gospel. Generally it is easier for players to move down the spectrum than going up. Knoblauch is a great example. Another recent example is Ben Petrick of Colorado, who has moved from C to OF, and may even play CF for them shortly.

At the low end of the spectrum, the differences between 1B and LF are slight. You see a lot of 1B/LF combo's among young players in the MLB. Guys like Dunn, Konerko, Russell Branyan all played both positions in the minors, so they are pretty interchangable. RF requires a strong arm, so it has an additional requirement and is considered slightly more difficult to play.

At the high end of the spectrum, both C and SS require strong defensive skills, but they are very different skills. SS's require 'soft' hands and great range, while C's need 'big' hands. I look at them as sharing the same spot on the spectrum.

[faulk28]

they have too good a bat to sit on the bench so they move a first baseman to lf...anyway i think both positions are relatively easy compared to other positions on the field...

[steven0560]

Why do you think SO many veteran players finish their career at 1B? It has happened time after time over the history of the game. No one says 1B is easy, but obviously most managers feel they can put their weakest, least mobile fielders there. I can think of dozens of players that finished at 1B that played the bulk of their career at OF or other postions. I can think of a scarce few that finished in the OF or anywhere else after playing at 1B the majority of their baseball life. As a matter of fact, I actually can't think of one longtime 1B that finished in another position other than DH.