Best Pitches In Baseball?

[Slingshot]

Ok, fill in the pitcher with the best pitch.

Fastball: Carlos Marmol
Cutter: Mariano Rivera
Splitter:
Sinker: Brandon Webb
Curveball: Barry Zito
Slider: Felix Hernandez
Knuckle curve:
Changeup: Johan Santana
Knuckleball: Tim Wakefield
Gyroball: Daisuke Matsuzaka

[HoustonGM]

Knuckle curve might still be Mike Mussina.

Barry Zito definitely no longer has the best curve. Not sure who does.

[metsguy234]

I've never really payed much attention to who throws what pitches.



Has Daisuke ever used the gyroball in a game?

[metsguy234]

Oh, and the cutter must be very unpopular, since that guy has apparently the best cutter.

[HoustonGM]

Oh, and the cutter must be very unpopular, since that guy has apparently the best cutter.
No, not at all.

Mariano Rivera has ONE pitch. The cutter. That's ALL he throws. Every batter KNOWS exactly whats coming and they still can't hit it. I think that pretty much conclusively puts Rivera's cutter as the best in the game.

[FRENCHREDSOX]

I've never really payed much attention to who throws what pitches.



Has Daisuke ever used the gyroball in a game?

No - he actually doesn't have a "gyro" at all it was a mis conception made by US journalists ;)

[metsguy234]

No, not at all.

Mariano Rivera has ONE pitch. The cutter. That's ALL he throws. Every batter KNOWS exactly whats coming and they still can't hit it. I think that pretty much conclusively puts Rivera's cutter as the best in the game.


Then he must face sucky hitters.


I still don't understand what's so great about any of those Stankees.

[HoustonGM]

Then he must face sucky hitters.

I still don't understand what's so great about any of those Stankees.
Because what determines how good a player is isn't based on what team he's on. It's based on how...good he does.

[metsguy234]

Because what determines how good a player is isn't based on what team he's on. It's based on how...good he does.

They probably all do steroids anyway.

Mike Mussina and Xavier Nady are the only clean Yankees now IMO.

[RedsoxRockies]

Fastball: Ubaldo Jimenez
Cutter: Mariano Rivera
Splitter:Curt Schilling/Jonathan Papelbon
Sinker: Brandon Webb/Aaron Cook
Curveball: Not sure who, but NOT Zito anymore
Slider: Felix Hernandez(I learned mine from watching him, and it is not bad)
Knuckle curve: Mike Mussina
Changeup: Johan Santana/Trevor Hoffman
Knuckleball: Tim Wakefield
Gyroball: Me!!!!

[HoustonGM]

They probably all do steroids anyway.

Mike Mussina and Xavier Nady are the only clean Yankees now IMO.
:rolleyes:

I'll never understand you.

[metsguy234]

:rolleyes:

I'll never understand you.

We already know that Giambi and A-Rod did steroids. The rest seem to be pretty obvious as well.

[cartman00000001]

an argument could be made where Buchholtz might have the best curve. He's just had such a bad year that you kinda can't consider him. Look at the curve he threw to Markakis during his no no might give you an indication what it could be if he was consistent.

P.S. There is no gyroball. It's a myth.

[HoustonGM]

We already know that Giambi and A-Rod did steroids. The rest seem to be pretty obvious as well.
We only know Giambi did. And there's no such thing as "obvious" when it comes to steroids. But please, let's not derail this thread. If you want to discuss how every Yankee in the world used steroids and only Yankees did, than start another thread.

[justanewguy]

Even with hating the Yankees, it makes someone sound completely foolish to dismiss Rivera, the greatest closer of all time, and one of the freakiest pitchers ever.

As far as the pitches go, I'd agree with most of the names thrown out so far. Marmol probably does have the best fastball in the majors, when it moves. Matt Lindstrom has a pretty wicked fastball too, which can be overlooked because he doesn't quite have the greatest movement on it just yet.

Zito definitely doesn't have that curve anymore. It's hard to say who has the "best curve" because that's the type of pitch that can easily be gained and lost. Now it's homer time. Kershaw's *best* curve is probably tops in the majors, but sometimes he leaves it at home. When it's there, it pretty much does "vanish" to the hitter, like Zito's used to.

I think Randy Johnson still has a top-notch slider, and should be in consideration, although it isn't what it used to be.

[OregonDuck1989]

We already know that Giambi and A-Rod did steroids. The rest seem to be pretty obvious as well.

Do you ever make sense?

[metsguy234]

Even with hating the Yankees, it makes someone sound completely foolish to dismiss Rivera, the greatest closer of all time, and one of the freakiest pitchers ever.

Trevor Hoffman is the greatest closer of all time, followed by Dennis Eckersley, followed by Lee Smith, followed by John Franco. Rivera is probably 5th best all time.

[Pavelb1]

Knuckle curve might still be Mike Mussina.

Barry Zito definitely no longer has the best curve. Not sure who does.

Just from watching today, I'd say Burnett.

[metsguy234]

Do you ever make sense?

How do I not make sense?

[etothep]

best curveball = kershaw

http://forum.sportsmogul.com/showthread.php?t=171314&highlight=public+enemy
ugh, they took the original video linked in that thread off of youtube

[OregonDuck1989]

How do I not make sense?

Let's start from the top...

You say Rivera doesn't have the best cutter in the game...when argued with that it's the only pitch he throws and still is the best closer in the game today...you spit some nonsense about how he faces awful hitters.

Then some more nonsense about how A-Rod does steroids and it's so obvious.

I just don't know where you make sense in all of this, that's all.

[metsguy234]

Let's start from the top...

You say Rivera doesn't have the best cutter in the game...when argued with that it's the only pitch he throws and still is the best closer in the game today...you spit some nonsense about how he faces awful hitters.

Then some more nonsense about how A-Rod does steroids and it's so obvious.

I just don't know where you make sense in all of this, that's all.

Jose Canseco said that A-Rod did steroids.

And Mariano Rivera is just an above-average closer, nothing special. Closers are overrated anyway.

[ohms_law]

Jose Canseco said that A-Rod did steroids.
There's a reliable source...
:rolleyes:

[metsguy234]

There's a reliable source...
:rolleyes:

I know, it's not like he was right about Tejada, McGwire, etc. etc. etc. :rolleyes:

[Pavelb1]

Jose Canseco said that A-Rod did steroids.

And Mariano Rivera is just an above-average closer, nothing special. Closers are overrated anyway.

Despite bs Jim Caple articles, they arn't. I'd rather see anyone but Manny Delcarman in there right now.

[OregonDuck1989]

Jose Canseco said that A-Rod did steroids.


Oh that means EVERYTHING, if Canseco said it then it must be true.

And i'm not going to have the rivera argument with you.

[justanewguy]

Trevor Hoffman is the greatest closer of all time, followed by Dennis Eckersley, followed by Lee Smith, followed by John Franco. Rivera is probably 5th best all time.

You may want to try looking at stats some time.

Or at least watching these guys pitch.

John Franco over Rivera? Hilarious...



And Mariano Rivera is just an above-average closer, nothing special.

You're out of your mind. An ERA of about HALF the league average for his career, a career WHIP only a HAIR over 1.000, and a 0.77 career postseason ERA in 117 1/3 innings.

Obviously he's only "above-average." :rolleyes:

[AndrewOsborn]

Has Daisuke ever used the gyroball in a game?

Actually, he throws it quite a bit. As well as a few other pitchers in the majors, they just don't call it that. A gyroball is merely a fastball that spins like a bullet or curveball to make appear that it is moving faster than it really is. For example, Jeff Weaver throws what could be considered a gyroball for his fastball. There are a few other pitchers but I can't remember right now.


You're out of your mind. An ERA of about HALF the league average for his career, a career WHIP only a HAIR over 1.000, and a 0.77 career postseason ERA in 117 1/3 innings.

Obviously he's only "above-average." :rolleyes:

true, he's a great pitcher but you also have to keep in mind that closers come in to games often, in which they throw for one inning and most of the time never have runners on. I was reading Sporting News and it said that K-Rod has yet to pitch in a game where he eneters with runners on. These closers often needlessly come into games, just to get the "save".

[RedsoxRockies]

Trevor Hoffman is the greatest closer of all time, followed by Dennis Eckersley, followed by Lee Smith, followed by John Franco. Rivera is probably 5th best all time.

Uhh, No. I would say that it is Hoffman, Rivera, Eckersly, and Rivera could be put ahead of Hoffman

[justanewguy]

true, he's a great pitcher but you also have to keep in mind that closers come in to games often, in which they throw for one inning and most of the time never have runners on. I was reading Sporting News and it said that K-Rod has yet to pitch in a game where he eneters with runners on. These closers often needlessly come into games, just to get the "save".

True.

But the point isn't the value of a closer, it's the values of closers comparative to one another.

Saying that Lee Smith and John Franco were better closers than Rivera is either ignorant, insane, or both. No other closer's body of work comes very close to Rivera's at all.

Another thing about Rivera is he ADDS value to the position when he does that in the postseason. He pitches around 1.5 innings per appearance there, and is all but guaranteed to turn the game into a 7 or 8 inning afair. This, against the best lineups in baseball.

[RedsoxRockies]

He only pitched 1.5 innings per game in the postseason because Torre wanted media attention. Mariano is great, but put out of New YOrk or not with Torre, and he would not be pitching so often, and probably would not do as good. The NY atmosphere has benefited Mo aa lot more than its seems

[OregonDuck1989]

He only pitched 1.5 innings per game in the postseason because Torre wanted media attention. Mariano is great, but put out of New YOrk or not with Torre, and he would not be pitching so often, and probably would not do as good. The NY atmosphere has benefited Mo aa lot more than its seems

You could make that argument with a lot of big market closers.

[metsguy234]

Well, Mariano Suckvera would be better if he wasn't on the roids.

[OregonDuck1989]

Well, Mariano Suckvera would be better if he wasn't on the roids.

aaaahahahahaaaaaa

I may have to save that comment somewhere. Oh man.

[GregCujo]

Well, Mariano Suckvera would be better if he wasn't on the roids.

Stop.


Ok, fill in the pitcher with the best pitch.

Fastball: Carlos Marmol

Marmol has a good fastball, but it's his slider that is ridiculous.

[RedsoxRockies]

Well, Mariano Suckvera would be better if he wasn't on the roids.

He is not on steriods! So stop, its getting old! Guiambi is on steriods yes, and some players on the Yankees other than him are possibly roided or once were, but Rivera is for real. And tell me, how on earth does he suck? Look at his stats for once

[metsguy234]

He is not on steriods! So stop, its getting old! Guiambi is on steriods yes, and some players on the Yankees other than him are possibly roided or once were, but Rivera is for real. And tell me, how on earth does he suck? Look at his stats for once

He is way overrated.

[RedsoxRockies]

He is way overrated.

Jeter is overrated, but Mariano is not. LOOK at his statistics and tell me again that he is overrated. Or better yet, SHOW an example why.

[Arctic Blast]

He is way overrated.

I have to ask...are you so pitifully insecure in your ability or lack thereof to contribute to an actual conversation that you'd rather sabotage any meaningful discussion than have to face up to your own self-disappointments? Or are you just a self obsessed egotist who can't get past himself? Which is it?

[etothep]

stop feeding the troll guys

[Arctic Blast]

stop feeding the troll guys

Actually, I'm trying to hit him with a stick. :D

[RedsoxRockies]

I am trying to knock some logic into him

[ohms_law]

There is no logic to this kind of thing. The reason that he posts, and then posts again, is because he knows that you guys will jump all over him.

[HoustonGM]

I actually don't think he's doing this to troll. I think he really is just blinded by his fandom.

Mariano Rivera is better than Trevor Hoffman. Only if you use save totals alone to rank them is Hoffman better. Only a person with an utterly illogical hatred of the Yankees and/or Mariano Rivera would say that Rivera isn't the best closer of all time.

[dickay]

I actually don't think he's doing this to troll. I think he really is just blinded by his fandom.

Mariano Rivera is not better than Trevor Hoffman. Only if you use save totals alone to rank them is Hoffman better. Only a person with an utterly illogical hatred of the Yankees and/or Mariano Rivera would say that Rivera isn't the best closer of all time.

Agree....Rivera is the best closer of all time, hands down. Best I've seen anyway.

[RedsoxRockies]

I actually don't think he's doing this to troll. I think he really is just blinded by his fandom.

Mariano Rivera is not better than Trevor Hoffman. Only if you use save totals alone to rank them is Hoffman better. Only a person with an utterly illogical hatred of the Yankees and/or Mariano Rivera would say that Rivera isn't the best closer of all time.

Hmm, your saying Mariano is the best closer all time while also saying he is not better than Hoffman?:rolleyes:

[GregCujo]

Hmm, your saying Mariano is the best closer all time while also saying he is not better than Hoffman?:rolleyes:

I think it was a typo.

[HoustonGM]

I think it was a typo.
It was, as the sentence immediately following that should indicate.

Fixed.

[Arctic Blast]

Agree....Rivera is the best closer of all time, hands down. Best I've seen anyway.

Sweet Jesus, I agree with dickay AND HoustonGM on the SAME subject?! :eek:

[HoustonGM]

Sweet Jesus, I agree with dickay AND HoustonGM on the SAME subject?! :eek:
That's because there are some issues that are just so clearly correct that there is no way to believe otherwise....unless you refuse to face the reality of things.

[metsguy234]

Trevor Hoffman has the most saves all time, therefore he is the best closer in my book. Lee Smith also has more saves then Rivera, so he is better as well.

Hopefully Rivera will tear a rotator cuff soon.

[Pavelb1]

Trevor Hoffman has the most saves all time, therefore he is the best closer in my book. Lee Smith also has more saves then Rivera, so he is better as well.

Hopefully Rivera will tear a rotator cuff soon.

Nolan Ryan has the most losses, therefore he is the biggest loser in Baseball. Goose Gossage has the most blown saves...therefore he is the worst closer in baseball.

[metsguy234]

Nolan Ryan has the most losses, therefore he is the biggest loser in Baseball. Goose Gossage has the most blown saves...therefore he is the worst closer in baseball.

No, Cy Young has the most losses.

[Slingshot]

No, Cy Young has the most losses.

Ok, so the Cy Young Award should be given to the worst pitcher in baseball?

[filihok]

Well, he also has the most wins...so it should go to the bestworst pitcher in baseball

[Pavelb1]

No, Cy Young has the most losses.

Modern era, Ryan has the most losses. Therefore in the modern era, Nolan Ryan is the biggest loser in baseball.

[Pavelb1]

Well, he also has the most wins...so it should go to the bestworst pitcher in baseball

That's Dice-K easily. Dice-K FTW!@

[RedsoxRockies]

Trevor Hoffman has the most saves all time, therefore he is the best closer in my book. Lee Smith also has more saves then Rivera, so he is better as well.

Hopefully Rivera will tear a rotator cuff soon.

Saves are a terrible stat!!!!! They depend on when the manager feels he wants to use his closer, and most saves are recorded with a 3-run lead and/or nobody on base. It is just a poor attempt tio make a stat for closers, and it is very flawed. NEVER use saves as the lone component of judging a player, if you must judge them. Joe Borkowski had 45 saves last year, but was he good? HELL NO! Kid, you should read Moneyball, or Bill James or something. You have got it all wrong.

[cartman00000001]

stop trying to apply logic. The guy's a troll pure and simple.

[RedsoxRockies]

stop trying to apply logic. The guy's a troll pure and simple.
In this case he is a confused person. In most cases he is a troll, but currently I feel there is a slight chance that he actually believes this

[HoustonGM]

Trevor Hoffman has the most saves all time, therefore he is the best closer in my book. Lee Smith also has more saves then Rivera, so he is better as well.

Hopefully Rivera will tear a rotator cuff soon.
Hey dude, do you remember this (http://forum.sportsmogul.com/showpost.php?p=1122489&postcount=101)? You said:

You have to look deeper then saves, the current saves rule is flawed.

[justanewguy]

"Most saves" makes someone the most prolific closer. Not "the best" closer. The closer has nothing to do with creating a save situation.

I will concede this:

Essentially, having a higher save success rate could provide a very strong argument that one pitcher is a better CLOSER than another, just as you can argue that the player with a higher slugging percentage is a better HITTER than another.

Is it possible Trevor Hoffman is a better CLOSER than Mariano Rivera in terms of the actual role of closing? Yes, and the success rating would indicate that.

However, I believe Hoffman's numbers are far better in save situations than in non-save situations. And there are certain things in even the raw save percentage that are difficult to measure. For instance, who averages the larger lead coming into a save situation? You'd assume it's Rivera because of the Yankees' offense, but you never know.

As a whole, Rivera is a better PITCHER than Hoffman, and probably a better RELIEVER. If someone argues that Hoffman is a better closer (and actually had some strong arguments behind it), that's fine, and it would make sense.

But saying that John Franco (100+ BS in his career, I think) is a better ANYTHING than Rivera is either stupid, blindly fanatic, or saying something for the sake of stirring people up.

[filihok]

But saying that John Franco (100+ BS in his career, I think) is a better ANYTHING than Rivera is either stupid, blindly fanatic, or saying something for the sake of stirring people up.

John Franco is a better left-handed closer than Rivera

[metsguy234]

John Franco is a better person then Mariano Rivera.

One of my teachers a couple of years ago was good friends with Franco's wife, and got me his autograph.

Also, John Franco lives in Staten Island, and played for my Mets for 14 years, somehow never being an All Star.

He pitched for the Mets during a great era for them.


Mariano Rivera just pitched for the Bankee$ for 10 years

[HoustonGM]

Great logic behind what makes someone a "better person" than another person.

Also, Franco made 4 All Star games, once with the Mets.

[metsguy234]

Great logic behind what makes someone a "better person" than another person.

Also, Franco made 4 All Star games, once with the Mets.

Oh. I guess I must've thought wrong then. Sorry.


And John Franco is also a very charitable person. That makes him a better person then the filthy stinking rich and selfish Mariano Rivera.

[HoustonGM]

Yeah, that greedy Mariano Rivera. He never does anything for charity. (http://www.stjosephshealth.org/foundation/champions.html)

Never. (http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS223478+31-Jul-2008+BW20080731)

[Pavelb1]

Oh. I guess I must've thought wrong then. Sorry.


And John Franco is also a very charitable person. That makes him a better person then the filthy stinking rich and selfish Mariano Rivera.

This board needs a KF.

[metsguy234]

This board needs a KF.

What is a KF?

[DarthJaker]

King Felix?