If Ryan Howard wins his second MVP...

[HoustonGM]

I will lose what little faith I have in the awards.

Some of the comments in ESPN's "Chatter Up" are making me throw up a little in my mouth.

Antonio (New York): No way pujols gets the MVP. Ryan Howard is definitely more deserving.

Scott, Philly Pa: Its so funny how everyone praises Pujols. Sure he has a great average but what really does it take to win games. Homers and RBI's, which Howard leads in both categories in. Easy choice, Howard!

Tim (Kingston, PA): Ryan Howard of course. Leading the league in homers and RBI by a wide margin. Team in the thick of the playoff hunt. Phils wouldn't be where they are without him.

Philadelphia Pa : Ryan howard if the phillies win the east his average isnt the best but if he gets it up to atleats .250 the rest of the numbers are there and the strike outs have been a little down now that hes carrying the phillies to possibley another NL EAST divison win and carlos quentin of the whitesox for the al

Rob (Lansdale PA): I think Ryan Howard and Dustin Pedroia will win the MVP's. Howard is white hot and Pedroia has been so consistent.

Rob (Philadelphia): Homer decision. However, if the Phillies make the playoffs, how can Ryan Howard not get it? I know he is batting .250, but by the end of the season he will have 50 HR's and 150 RBI's. Hard to argue.
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There's this gem:

Seth - Nanuet, NY: It has got to be Howard if the Phillies win the division and Pujols if the Phillies don't. In the AL it should be Pedroia - so pesky!

Yeah. Let the MVP award be decided by how the non-Ryan Howard Phillies play!
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Thankfully, Matt from Florida speaks some sense, one of the few people whose comments are being posted that actually makes much sense:

Matt (Tallahassee, FL): Value is not restricted to teams that make the playoffs. The NL MVP shouldn't be a discussion Albert Pujols has been the best hitter, and best defensive 1b this year.

[OregonDuck1989]

Today on PTI which was on my tv somehow BOTH Kornheiser and Wilbon make the claim that because the Cardinals are not in a playoff race Howard is more deserving.

I was literally yelling at the tv. My girlfriend was like shut the hell up.

[etothep]

You notice that nearly all of those people are in PA right? that's like expecting metsguy not to say delgado should win it

[HoustonGM]

You notice that nearly all of those people are in PA right? that's like expecting metsguy not to say delgado should win it
I actually didn't notice it. But still. if I was a Phillies fan, I'd back Utley over Howard. Utley just had the misfortune of having his hot streak at the beginning of the season, while Howard's came at the end, so that's fresh in the mind.

From baseball think factory:

Burrell on May 9, 303/440/622. Burrell since Aug 1, 178/275/287. Burrell prior to Aug 1, 279/400/473.

Burrell's opening hot streak, along with Utley's, carried Howard's anemic effort, they weren't grossly different in the middle, and now Howard's carrying the team.

It's all just fun with endpoints, the Phillies wouldn't be where they are now without either of their hot streaks. If anything, Burrell's total performance is about on par with expectations, while Howard's is still below expectation. If Howard had been Howard in April/June/August, the Phils would probably have a cushion right now.

September is all that matters in the MVP race, and only if your team makes the playoffs. And that's ridiculous.

[asianinvasion]

But aren't alot of the MVP races decided on homers and RBI's. Its like those are the only stats that matter to the voters. Having a hot September also helps and being in the chase in the playoffs also help. I bet if the Phillies were in last place, Howard had a consistent year, and his line was more towards .275/40/110 which I think is a better year, he would be no were near the head of the MVP race.

[HoustonGM]

But aren't alot of the MVP races decided on homers and RBI's. Its like those are the only stats that matter to the voters. Having a hot September also helps and being in the chase in the playoffs also help. I bet if the Phillies were in last place, Howard had a consistent year, and his line was more towards .275/40/110 which I think is a better year, he would be no were near the head of the MVP race.
Yep. It's all about having your hot streaks at the end of the season, having good hitters hitting in front of you, and being on a good team.

[justanewguy]

This is where I disagree with the idea that putting a team in contention means anything in the MVP race.

Howard was nowhere to be FOUND in the middle of the season, and Utley was equally "valuable" to the team in the early part of the season.

Pujols is a ridiculously better hitter, and deserves this award. It's already wrapped up for him, as far as I'm concerned.

Where I agree with including the team's success in the MVP race is with someone like Quentin. Not only does he have enormous value to his team, I also consider: a) he played well, consistently, throughout the season, b) there is no player in the league with a clear, decided advantage in numbers, like Pujols.

Even Berkman would be in my top 3 for AL MVP candidates, probably even winning it for me, if he played in the AL. And Pujols is by far ahead of even him. This is how good Pujols is. For hitting in 2008, it's Pujols at the top, big gap, Berkman, small gap, Alex Rodriguez, tiny gap, then everyone else.

[etothep]

i think its just that people generally become complacent

thus, when pujols has what is simply another albert-quality season, we overlook it cause we've seen it every year for what 5-6 years now? its only human nature, i believe, for something like this to occur

obviously don't agree with it, but just what i think is the reason behind a lot of the public (and i can only assume as least some writers) not seeing pujols as the gimme for the nl mvp

[HoustonGM]

This is where I disagree with the idea that putting a team in contention means anything in the MVP race.
People also don't seem to pay any attention to the fact that Albert Pujols has single handedly kept the Cardinals anywhere close to the playoffs. He's hit at the same outstanding rate, consistently, the entire season. Without him, this team likely wouldn't sniff .500, let alone playoff contention.

But, of course, you're more valuable if you suck up the joint for two months, playing a role in making it so your team has to actually fight for a playoff spot instead of wrapping it up early a la the Angels, and then turn it up and "carry your team into the playoffs." :rolleyes:

[HoustonGM]

i think its just that people generally become complacent

thus, when pujols has what is simply another albert-quality season, we overlook it cause we've seen it every year for what 5-6 years now? its only human nature, i believe, for something like this to occur

obviously don't agree with it, but just what i think is the reason behind a lot of the public (and i can only assume as least some writers) not seeing pujols as the gimme for the nl mvp
True. His greatness is taken for granted.

[pacers721]

i wonder if howard will break his own strikeout record. He was on pace to do it about 2 weeks ago, but then he caught onto a hot streak...

[RedsoxRockies]

Most fans are such RETARDS

[DarthJaker]

WTF HOWARD? Yo how does win?

[HoustonGM]

What?

[phillies999]

Ryan Howard is great. He gets hits when there's runners in scoring position and it shows. On TV the other day, they showed he hits like .180 with no one on and close to .300 with runners on. I'm not saying he should win MVP though. He strikeouts a lot, and his batting average is just not MVP worthy.

[metsguy234]

Pujols shouldn't win this MVP. In my most non-biased view, Howard really should win this.

[HoustonGM]

Pujols shouldn't win this MVP. In my most non-biased view, Howard really should win this.
How can you possibly rationalize this?

Albert Pujols is far and away the best hitter in the National League. Plus, Pujols plays OUTSTANDING defense at first base, while Howard is poor defensively.

Oh, right, I forgot. The only way to evaluate hitters is to look at the number of home runs they've hit. :rolleyes:

[RedsoxRockies]

WTF HOWARD? Yo how does win?

:confused:

[RedsoxRockies]

How can you possibly rationalize this?

Albert Pujols is far and away the best hitter in the National League. Plus, Pujols plays OUTSTANDING defense at first base, while Howard is poor defensively.

Oh, right, I forgot. The only way to evaluate hitters is to look at the number of home runs they've hit. :rolleyes:

Pujols is the MVP this year in my opinion. Holliday and Chipper deserve consideration as well

[beerchaser]

Manny Ramirez for MVP!!!

lol

Seriously, there is no player in the National League more valuable than Albert Pujols. It isn't even close. He's the guy you start your team with and build around.

[RedsoxRockies]

Manny Ramirez for MVP!!!

lol

Seriously, there is no player in the National League more valuable than Albert Pujols. It isn't even close. He's the guy you start your team with and build around.

Manny has actually shown he may deserve a few votes

[RedsoxRockies]

Pujols shouldn't win this MVP. In my most non-biased view, Howard really should win this.

Metsguy, you are so fair weathered

[dannymac910]

Holliday deserves no flak this year.

[RedsoxRockies]

Holliday deserves no flak this year.

Look at his numbers, they are great! Yea, his team has died, but Holliday has been quietly posting another strong season

[dannymac910]

Did you forget what park he plays in? I could probably hit .250 with 10 homers in that stadium.

[gRYFYN1]

Here's an interesting food for thought metric ...

Pujols has been up to bat 295 times with 320 runners on bas he has an OPS of 1.110 and driven in 70 of those runners (21.9%)

Howard 337 PA, 463 runners on, 1.024 OPS, 93 driven in (18.9%)

[gRYFYN1]

Did you forget what park he plays in? I could probably hit .250 with 10 homers in that stadium.

Actually Holliday's tOPS+ Home/Away split of 110/88 this year is respectable epically considering his 127/72 career split

[RedsoxRockies]

Exactly! Holliday is a great hitter

[HoustonGM]

Here's an interesting food for thought metric ...

Pujols has been up to bat 295 times with 320 runners on bas he has an OPS of 1.110 and driven in 70 of those runners (21.9%)

Howard 337 PA, 463 runners on, 1.024 OPS, 93 driven in (18.9%)
Where'd you get those numbers?

It's really amazing how people simply can't grasp the simple concept that RBI's are largely a function of opportunity and runners on base ahead of you. Pujols has Skip Schumaker and one of Aaron Miles, Ryan Ludwick, and Rick Ankiel hitting ahead of him. Ryan Howard has Jimmy Rollins, Shane Victorino, and Chase Utley ahead of him. Gee, I wonder who's going to drive in more runs. :rolleyes:


Did you forget what park he plays in? I could probably hit .250 with 10 homers in that stadium.
142 OPS+, which adjusts for ballpark.

He also plays very good defense, and has stolen 27 bases in 29 attempts this season, which I was very surprised about when I looked at his stats the other day. He's having a season on par with last year, but is getting no recognition or award consideration because his team is worse.

[grasshopper]

Call me old fashioned, but I still believe that the MVP should go to the player who most improved his team and chances at the playoffs. For Phillie, it is Utley, hands down. Howard should get the golden whiff award though.

I still think that Jose Reyes, Sabathia, and Manny had more of an impact on their teams making it towards the end.

(This comes from an absolute Manny hater, but since the trade....)

[gRYFYN1]

Where'd you get those numbers?



I simply tallied the numbers based on his split from BR, hoo-ray fro spreadsheets. But I think RBI% needs to be the next metric used!!

[metsguy234]

Albert Pujols' team isn't in the playoffs. Therefore he wasn't valuable. Howard's team, and Delgado's team, and Manny's team are all likely in the playoffs. Therefore they are more valuable.

[DarthJaker]

Albert Pujols' team isn't in the playoffs. Therefore he wasn't valuable. Howard's team, and Delgado's team, and Manny's team are all likely in the playoffs. Therefore they are more valuable.
WTF Pujols was valuable if Pujols was taken away from the cards they'd be in last

[dannymac910]

lol

[boa]

I simply tallied the numbers based on his split from BR, hoo-ray fro spreadsheets. But I think RBI% needs to be the next metric used!!

It would basically regress to the SLG % of the player.

[KowboyKoop]

Baseball's like church. Lots of people watch. Few people actually understand.


A lot of fans are stupid. Pujols is the MVP. It's not a debate.

[justanewguy]

Pujols is the MVP. It's not a debate.

Agreed, 100%.

What I also don't understand is why people throw out every name EXCEPT Lance Berkman's when they want to propose an alternative to Pujols. It's insane. Berkman is head and shoulders above everyone in the NL except Pujols, who he trails by a wide margin.

[metsguy234]

But Pujols HAS NOT been valuable. It's called Most VALUABLE Player Award, not Best Player Award.

[justanewguy]

But Pujols HAS NOT been valuable. It's called Most VALUABLE Player Award, not Best Player Award.

How has he not been valuable?

If I have a $5 bill (Pujols) and some change (bad players), and I've got a total of $5.75 (a team out of playoff contention), the $5 is worth just as much as if I had a $5 (Pujols) and 10 $1 bills (good players), giving me a total of $15 (a team in the playoffs).

$5 = $5. Same value, playoffs or not.

The only exception I ever put on this is when there's no player with a huge advantage over another. If a player's stats stack up with everyone else's at the top of the league, and he was an inarguably integral part of his team's success, it gives him a lot of extra weight. Carlos Quentin is an example of this, though his absence due to injury at the end of the season hampers him.

[KowboyKoop]

But Pujols HAS NOT been valuable. It's called Most VALUABLE Player Award, not Best Player Award.

That is incorrect. Pujols is worth more wins than Ryan Howard. Taking Pujols away from the Cards would result in a FAR greater dropoff than taking Howard away from the Phils.

It's really basic logic. Are you saying EVERY SINGLE PLAYER on a team that doesn't make the playoffs has no value? That's just utterly ridiculous.

[RedsoxRockies]

But Pujols HAS NOT been valuable. It's called Most VALUABLE Player Award, not Best Player Award.

OMFG LEARN and actually LOOK at his stats! They are awesome. If he is or is not on a play off team, that should not matter. You are really getting annoying now. At first I thought it was funny how you were so off and confused about baseball stats, now it is getting abnoxious how you blast your opinion and diss everyone elses

[Arctic Blast]

Call me old fashioned, but I still believe that the MVP should go to the player who most improved his team and chances at the playoffs. For Phillie, it is Utley, hands down. Howard should get the golden whiff award though.

I still think that Jose Reyes, Sabathia, and Manny had more of an impact on their teams making it towards the end.

(This comes from an absolute Manny hater, but since the trade....)

I agree completely with giving votes to Utley, rather than Howard. Chase has had a really strong season, though he's been overshadowed.

I still have to give it to Pujols overall, though.

[HoustonGM]

But Pujols HAS NOT been valuable. It's called Most VALUABLE Player Award, not Best Player Award.
Tell me how you can be the BEST player, but not the most VALUABLE player. The player that plays the best, by definition, gives the most value.

You're confusing team success with player value. The performance of the teammates of Albert Pujols should not play into an award for individual performance. It doesn't even make sense.

Like justanewguy said, it's fair to weigh it a little in the case of an extremely close race, but the NL race isn't close, at all. Albert Pujols is heads and shoulders above the rest of the NL.

And if Pujols isn't the MVP, there's at least 10 other players (and maybe even 20) that are more qualified than Ryan Howard.


If I have a $5 bill (Pujols) and some change (bad players), and I've got a total of $5.75 (a team out of playoff contention), the $5 is worth just as much as if I had a $5 (Pujols) and 10 $1 bills (good players), giving me a total of $15 (a team in the playoffs).

$5 = $5. Same value, playoffs or not.]
Simple and to the point. I like it.

[bwit43]

Albert Pujols' team isn't in the playoffs. Therefore he wasn't valuable. Howard's team, and Delgado's team, and Manny's team are all likely in the playoffs. Therefore they are more valuable.

So Howard was NL MVP in 2006 correct? But wait the Phillies didn't make the playoffs. But.... his team didn't make the playoffs so he can't win MVP :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: get a better arguement you stupid newb, hey lets make Delgado MVP, He had a good 2 months! yay! lol typical NY fan.

If Howard steals another MVP away from Pujols it's gonn be a travesty. Pujols should already have 4 MVPs maybe 5, if the media wasn't falling all over Bonds in the early 2000's.

[HoustonGM]

If Howard steals another MVP away from Pujols it's gonn be a travesty. Pujols should already have 4 MVPs maybe 5, if the media wasn't falling all over Bonds in the early 2000's.
Bonds was far and away the MVP in each year from 2001-2004, so it had nothing to do with the media "falling all over" him.

But Pujols did deserve the 2006 MVP, and arguably 2007 as well.

[RedsoxRockies]

So Howard was NL MVP in 2006 correct? But wait the Phillies didn't make the playoffs. But.... his team didn't make the playoffs so he can't win MVP :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: get a better arguement you stupid newb, hey lets make Delgado MVP, He had a good 2 months! yay! lol typical NY fan.

If Howard steals another MVP away from Pujols it's gonn be a travesty. Pujols should already have 4 MVPs maybe 5, if the media wasn't falling all over Bonds in the early 2000's.

he is not really a newb, he has been here two years...

[Pavelb1]

Bonds was far and away the MVP in each year from 2001-2004, so it had nothing to do with the media "falling all over" him.

But Pujols did deserve the 2006 MVP, and arguably 2007 as well.

Wait wait wait....i admit i know nothing about the NL, so I had to look into why a guy with so many HR's and RBI's (and no I don't think RBI's OR wins should be tossed out the window, those opportunities have to be cashed in you know) shouldn't even merit consideration....and I agree he shouldn't be MVP this year.

BUT

In no way is 2006 a 'steal'. Very good BA, fantastic OBA, second in slugging, second in OPS, first in total bases, first in HR's missed Maris's record (yes it's still his) by three. First in times on base. Now maybe Pujols is right up there with him in 2006, but there's no way that's a 'steal'.

[HoustonGM]

In no way is 2006 a 'steal'. Very good BA, fantastic OBA, second in slugging, second in OPS, first in total bases, first in HR's missed Maris's record (yes it's still his) by three. First in times on base. Now maybe Pujols is right up there with him in 2006, but there's no way that's a 'steal'.

Howard hit .313/.425/.659 with 58 HR and 149 RBI, 167 OPS+. Pujols hit .331/.431/.671 with 49 HR and 137 RBI, 178 OPS+. You have to adjust for context to get a proper hold on their value. Pujols played in a neutral park, which maybe slightly favored pitchers. Howard's park was very favorable to hitter's.

Then, you also have to factor in defense. Pujols is the top defensive first basemen in the game. Howard is near the bottom of the league.

Better offense, once context is accounted for, and vastly superior defense, makes it not close. Howard won because he put up sexier counting numbers.