Ending the Cold War

[metsguy234]

No. Reagan ended the Cold War, but the Soviet Union finally officially collapsed during Bush Sr.'s term in office.

I never understood, besides making sure we don't get blown to smithereens, what was all that important about disbanding the U.S.S.R. We seem to think we have to turn every happily communist country into a capitalism.

[ohms_law]

Guys, just... don't.
Thanks.

[metsguy234]

Guys, just... don't.
Thanks.

No, I'm serious. I see why we needed to agree with the U.S.S.R. not to bomb each other but what made us want to disband them after that?

[YEAH DAAAAWG]

Guys, just... don't.
Thanks.

I wasn't going to.

[metsguy234]

OK then... can someone just PM me with the answer to my question then?

[ohms_law]

Tell you what metsguy, read the basics first: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_War
If you have specific questions, feel free to start a thread about them. This thread really isn't the place for this discussion anyway.

[metsguy234]

Tell you what metsguy, read the basics first: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_War
If you have specific questions, feel free to start a thread about them. This thread really isn't the place for this discussion anyway.

Oh, so the parts of the USSR broke apart due to an unstable Soviet government?

You could've just told me that...

[ohms_law]

Well, eventually yea... but, that's not what you were asking about.
:confused:

[RickD]

Guys, just... don't.
Thanks.

Sorry just caught this part, I won't go there.

[metsguy234]

Well, eventually yea... but, that's not what you were asking about.
:confused:

Well, I asked why we had to disband them, and then I learned that they dissolved on their own.

[RickD]

OK part of the collapse of the Soviet Union was due to Reagan's policies of making more and more weapons. The Russians could not keep up and it affected their economy. He also treated them, referred to them as an Evil Empire which had not been done before. He did not even meet with them until his second term. These things and many others helped end the cold war...I also bear boned these down but they are much more advanced than my synopsis.

Also if you had lived through the Cold War you would understand so much more!

[ohms_law]

"disolving on their own" is a really simplistic view of what happened.
The Soviet Union didn't really "dissolve", it was torn apart by civil strife after Gorbachev began instituting Perestroika.

Anyway, you started this discussion asking why it was so important for "the US to disband the USSR". There's a couple of points there: First, the US didn't actually set out to disband the Soviet Union. The aim of the western world, from the end of WWII on, was to contain the USSR. Second, the Soviet Union were the aggressors in the conflict almost the entire time. Stalin (who had earlier on formed an alliance with Nazi Germany, by the way) brought down the Iron Curtain, which officially started the actual Cold War. The stated Soviet goal was expansion of Communism by any means available, up to and including through force. They developed and tested atomic weaponry specifically to counter the US possession of the bomb. They encouraged and directly supported North Korea's armed attempted take over of the whole of the Korean peninsula. They controlled all of eastern Europe through military power (see: Czechoslovakia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague_Spring)). They, just as much as the US if not more so, turned Vietnam into an ideological war rather than a nationalistic, anti-colonialist war. Then theirs Afghanistan, which we're only now fully dealing with (thanks largely to the short sightedness of Congress) The list goes on and on.

The fact is that Russia has historically been an expansionist, authoritarian country. That's their history, and they live up to it consistently even to this day. That's not to say that we can't be friendly with them, but Regan said it best when it comes to Russia: "Trust, but verify".

[RickD]

I still get tickled at Reagan's comment about why he had not met a Soviet leader until 85...."I can't help it if they keep dying on me." Pure genius!

hundreds and hundreds of factors led to the collapse of the Soviet Union. Some economic some political. I am old enough to remember some of the fear during the cold war and how concerned many were when Reagan came to power. People swore he would start WW3! They said he couldn't do what he was doing.....yet he was right and it worked!

[ohms_law]

Yup.

I guess that it really must be hard to understand if you hadn't lived though it. I'll never forget doing the duck and cover drills in school. That and the media representations of the possible repercussions of an all out nuclear exchange. Does anyone remember The Twilight Zone episode where the guy figured out that he could stop time? He did all these things to help himself out, right until the last scene in the show where he comes out because people are going crazy out in the street. Someone tells him that we're being attacked, and he stops time. There in the background is a Soviet missile headed down just outside of his town...

Alot of that was largely "fear mongering", but the grain of truth behind it all made it stick. While we know now that the Soviet Union never seriously considered an attack against NATO directly, they were always prepared to do so. Quite a bit of that was paranoia on their part that NATO would attack them, but that just goes to show the level of mistrust between all of the parties involved. Russia does actually have a good reason to fear invasion too, seeing as how every nation in Europe has at one point or another in the past. Really, that's the whole problem right there: Russians are paranoid to a fault.

[RickD]

Well the whole nuke pointed at US thing in Cuba helped with some of the fear mongering!

I remember the duck under the table thing, repercussions, etc. Ah those were crazy times. I remember marching in a anti-nuke rally. I was 12. I was naive! I was so convinced Reagan wanted to blow up the world. It wasn't until halfway through his presidency I realized how intelligent the guy was and how he was the right man for the job.

I wish today we had a candidate like him.

[ohms_law]

Well... that's probably going a bit too far in the other direction regarding Regan. He was a good President, there's no doubt about that, but there's a Cult of Personality that's built up around him now. A lot of the stuff that I see about him anymore is just so... neat and clean. Let's not forget about, for example, Iran - Contra (although, I still personally look at Olly North as someone who should be considered a hero).

[metsguy234]

I still don't like that Reagan fellow, though.

[ohms_law]

Well, there's never been a more anti-communist President as far as I'm concerned, so it's hardly surprising that you don't like Regan. I wasn't at all trying to dissuade you from that opinion, anyway. The only thing that I was worried about was maybe showing you some history, which could only be beneficial.

[RickD]

Yeah we all have favorite and non-favorite presidents.....however Cold War history should be taught often in school.

[RickD]

You can also check out the Cold War Museum (http://www.coldwar.org/)!

[Arctic Blast]

Well... that's probably going a bit too far in the other direction regarding Regan. He was a good President, there's no doubt about that, but there's a Cult of Personality that's built up around him now. A lot of the stuff that I see about him anymore is just so... neat and clean. Let's not forget about, for example, Iran - Contra (although, I still personally look at Olly North as someone who should be considered a hero).

I REALLY can't agree about Olly North. I've read several books that paint him as just an absolute *****. He was one of the total geniuses who was convinced that they could get a group of Russians to mass-surrender to the Muj in Afghanistan in the 80's, then use them as a force against the USSR. He also bought in to the words of Manucher Ghorbanifar that there was a major faction of moderates whose takeover of the Iranian government was imminent. This, despite the fact that EVERYONE had painted the guy as a complete and total con man (famously, when he was lie detector tested by the CIA, he was found to be honest on TWO questions...his name, and his place of birth). Iran-Contra helped the Israelis make money from weapons sales (and the Mossad likely make some inroads in Iran), Ghorbanifar make a fortune, and the Contras get to keep fighting a bit longer. There was absolutely zero tangible benefit for the US, who was stuck taking all the risks.

[ohms_law]

Oh I know, believe me. I just remember watching the hearings at the time, with my dad... it colors my views, there's no doubt about it.

[RickD]

Yeah well North was not operating solo here!

However I remember the North trials too and he seemed like a patriot to me. I also have read some books afterwords and there are pros and cons but I like to think of him as a hero.

[Arctic Blast]

Yeah well North was not operating solo here!

However I remember the North trials too and he seemed like a patriot to me. I also have read some books afterwords and there are pros and cons but I like to think of him as a hero.

He certainly wasn't running solo...he most definitely was scapegoated, along with a few others, to protect others higher up the food chain. I can see him as a patriot, but I can't see the guy as a hero.

[ohms_law]

Actually, "patriot" is probably a much better description...
But, patriotism can be seen to be heroic to a certain extent. Not in the same way as, for example, a NY firefighter or police officer on 9/11, but still.

[etothep]

I think global warming ended the cold war


haha, see what i did there?

[ohms_law]

hehe

cute.