Is it harder to play an outfield position or 1B?

[khan]

I have seen at least 5 "good" (less than 10 errors per season and B or better fielding) defensive oufielders become terrible (more than 30 errors per season and D or worse fielding) fielders when they are converted to 1B.

I am wondering how other players feel about this. Is it realistic? Would a guy like Ichiro make a worst 1B than a guy like Jason Giambi in real life?

BTW, I don't think its realistic. I feel that if someone has enough defensive ability to judge line drives, chase flyballs at full speed, make diving catches and save homers by jumping at the wall, they can sure as **** catch a ball thrown to them from a SS or 3B or 2B.

It would be great if everyone who votes could post a reply so we can all learn from each other.

[khan]

I voted no. For my reasons, see the above post.

[edeutsch77]

I voted No, because of someone who is good at defense can play any corner infield position. It's not THAT hard.

[DodgersGM]

There is no reason why an OF can't become at least a marginal 1b. Remeber that on most plays when a 1B is required to scoop the ball the error won't be charged to the 1B but rather to the player making the throw in the dirt. So where exactly are 20+ errors coming from? On ground balls hit back to 1st? I don't think so.

[dturkenk]

Ditto

[takaplan]

Thank you for your feedback.

I think the problem with your poll and question is that it is too black and white, too much of a generalization.

I think that some outfielders would be very poor first basemen. Likewise, I think that some outfielders would have no problem at first base. But the way you have your question worded, it makes that either all outfielders would be good at first base, or all outfielders would play poorly at first base.

I don't know though...
Mo Vaughn regularly makes 15-20 errors every year. Carlos Delgado makes 15 errors, and he was initially a LF. Mike Sweeney has made 8 errors in only 75 games at 1B this year; he was initially a C, and made fewer errors at C than at 1B. Kevin Young was initially an OF; he switched to 1B, and made 23 errors one season, and 17 errors the next. Jeff Bagwell has made up to 16 errors in one season at 1B. Fred McGriff has made 17 errors at 1B in one season twice in his career, and has regularly made 12+ errors every season. Lee Stevens made 19 errors at 1B in Montreal, playing 1B for his first full season. He had also played the outfield, without an error for nearly 50 games. Jim Thome has also made 17 errors in a season.

Again, thanks for your feedback. We're constantly trying to improve the game engine, so we're interested in hearing everyone's opinions on this topic.

[misterblond]

While I certainly disagree with Tom's tactics when it comes to these boards, I'm inclined to absolutely agree with his last post. The poll is too narrow, as well as biased.

While I personally feel that most outfielders can become at least marginal first basemen, it doesn't change the fact that it is possible that the contrary happens. It also doesn't change the fact that the poll is flawed.

QUOTE: "BTW, I don't think its realistic. I feel that if someone has enough defensive ability to judge line drives, chase flyballs at full speed, make diving catches and save homers by jumping at the wall, they can sure as **** catch a ball thrown to them from a SS or 3B or 2B." --> totally pointless. Marginal baseball knowledge should suggest that there's much more to playing first base than 'catching a ball'. Anyone who thinks that corner infield positions are easy to play, has never had a line drive short-hop ripped at them from 90 feet away by a quality hitter.

[Craigrrs]

Ok so those players that switched to 1B from other positions have made around 20 errors in a season on a few occiassions. That is acceptable for someone changing positions. That's not the 30-50 errors that an OF switched to 1B can sometimes (if not most of the time) make in this game. I personally would be fine with 20 errors from someone I switched, but that's not what usually happens.

[Sled]

Does the game engine allow players to learn new positions and cut down on errors over time? Can SS pick up 2b pretty quickly without making too many errors? By this I mean guys listed as SS not IF.

[edeutsch77]

How many seasons does it take for, say a catcher to adjust and become a first baseman? I know the Mets in my league have moved Piazza...and I was just curious as to when he would "become" a first baseman?

[takaplan]

I believe about 2 seasons for the switch to be official.

[tward13]

I said yes, but with the catch (since the poll was too b & W) that somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 - 25 errors would be realistic. 30 - 40 - 50 is ridiculous at first.

I'd like to see the game be more realistic with players changing positions. Many do and most who stick with it are not awful if moving to a similar or easier position. I just got Nomar in my league and I'm playing him at 3rd. I wouldn't expect him to be a worse 3B than he is a SS. Maybe a few more errors at the beginning, but not 30 or more.

[threethreads]

What about switching between outfield positions? I put Andruw Jones in rightfield and his range and fielding dropped to C+, even after several seasons there. I can't believe the best centerfielder in the game becomes that bad just by switching to right field.

I agree that the penalty is too much right now, especially for situations like this or when moving a SS to 2B.

[khan]

Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Here's another guy. Try switching Alex Escobar who has A arm/range/fielding in CF to LF. His arm goes to B-, range goes to C- and fielding goes to C. He makes twice (and some years three times) as many errors in LF.

Is that realistic?

And NOOOOOO, his fielding does not get better over time. It stays lousy (unless you switch him back to CF). If you want to see Alex as a LF, visit Survivor 2.

[John]

I switched a goldglove caliber (fictional made) player from right to left and he became such a horrible fielder I have to play him at DH! (Manuel Salgado)

[williethebasset]

PLayers are usually switched around many times before they find a position. Carlos Delgado actually was a Catcher. (I have his rookie card with Mike Piazza also listing the top catchers in A, AA, AAA, and rookie ball) Jose Offerman was utility before his release. Edgar Marintez was a 3B, moved to 1B and now DH's. Tim Wakefield was a position player. I am sure there are more examples thatr I have not heard of.

[faulk28]

many problems with fielding errors in this game....in survivor II i had a new first baseman and in 61 games he had 29 errors...i know his fielding was d+ but that's an error every other game...i had to sit him and his A+ power rating on the bench...i noticed tom was mentioning all those players with 20+ errors...i could handle that, but over the whole season at the pace "Laffey" was going he would have had 81 errors...maybe it was actually "Daffey" playing first base:D...i have also noticed in one of my other leagues that there was a 31-year old catcher with 50 or so passed balls in a season with no errors...then another season he had 37 in only about 40+ games as a starter...he has no career errors but many passed balls...how does the fielding rating apply to catchers?

[dturkenk]

I thought maybe I could inject some real life numbers into this discussion.

I looked at all the players who played at least 30 games in the OF one season followed by at least 30 games at 1B the next season from 1950 on. There were 311 such seasons. I then determined the number of errors these players would have had over 162 games played at first base.

60 out of 311 or 19.3% would have had at least 20 errors over the course of 162 games, and the average number of errors over 162 games was 13.

I can run the same sort of analysis for other positional switches if anyone's interested. Just let me know.

[ncummings15]

Here's what I have to say about this...First of all about catchers, since i am a catcher, passed balls do not count as errors, and catchers have very few chances to commit errors. They can only be commited on pop flys, plays at the plate, fielding a bunt and throwing errors. First base is also similar that it is hard to commit a bunch of errors because 1. its not that hard to catch a ball from an infielder, and if it is anything that is hard to catch, the error is charged to the infielder that threw it, and 2. most the groundballs that get by a 1b is one that is hit extremely hard and would not count as an error, and also first basemen dont have to throw the ball very often. Whoever said you can stick someone at a corner infield position is wrong...3b is much much more difficult than 1B. I would agree you can put youre worst fielder at first and it wouldnt hurt your team that much.
Now onto OF's, its absolutely ridiculous to have a guy's arm rating go down from CF to LF because you still have the exact same arm power. Although i can see fielding going down because it is a lot different how the ball comes at you in each position. And that goes the same for middle infielders.
Nick

[khan]

I sure would like to know where the six votes for "no, its great as is" came from. I count Mr. Blonde and TomKaplan as two.

All the other posts seem to be supporting the "its unrealistic" point of view. Can the other four people who voted for "it makes sense that good outfielders make lousy 1B" please share their thinking with us?

Or are some people (those with the required resources) voting more than once?

[takaplan]

Hi,
Our forum software, vBulletin, checks IP addresses when users vote for polls so every user can only vote once. I hope you are not accusing me of rigging the poll and voting multiple times.

In my opinion, I think that you are right, and it doesn't seem right. However, I do not believe it is 100% unrealistic, which your poll states. Like I posted before, the poll is flawed, but the idea is valid.

Thank you for your feedback!

[John]

Now onto OF's, its absolutely ridiculous to have a guy's arm rating go down from CF to LF because you still have the exact same arm power. Although i can see fielding going down because it is a lot different how the ball comes at you in each position. And that goes the same for middle infielders.

This is a GREAT point...

[dturkenk]

Now onto OF's, its absolutely ridiculous to have a guy's arm rating go down from CF to LF because you still have the exact same arm power. Although i can see fielding going down because it is a lot different how the ball comes at you in each position. And that goes the same for middle infielders.


The only thing I can think of is that the arm rating is dependent on position. For example, a good arm is more important in RF than in LF, so maybe someone who's got a B+ arm in LF has a B- arm in RF? I don't know if the ratings are position dependent like that though.

[kaill]

A CF moving to a corner OF position should see all his ratings rise, as CF is much harder. A player such as Darin Erstad, who is a good CF, is a spectacular corner OF. Other players, such as Shannon Stewart (and Ricky Henderson, when he was young) moved from CF to LF because it is the easiest OF position to play. You will never (or, very very rarely) see a RF be switched to CF and actually do a good job of it.

As for the 1B question, it is pretty unanimously agreed in the baseball world that it is the easiest position. There may be the odd player that cannot handle short-hop ground balls, but come on - could you imagine Cecil Fielder or Mo Vaughn playing the outfield?

Carlos Delgado is a perfect example - he started as a C, moved to LF, and finally to 1B, where he is average at best. His next move is to DH.

Anyway. Yes, 50 errors is unreasonable. The position-switching AI in the game is flawed and doesn't follow the Bill James defensive spectrum. Who cares? The rules are the same for everyone. Defense doesn't matter that much anyway.

Ho hum.

[dturkenk]

Defense doesn't matter that much anyway.

I think you'd be shocked to see how much defense does matter in this game. A quality defense can lower your ERA tons (anecdotally i'd say by almost a run, but I have no numbers to back it up) because of the range. And there's always unearned runs that aren't captured in the ERA numbers that good defense will prevent.

[ncummings15]

CF is not necesarily harder than left or right, it depends on the person. For some people center is easy because the ball hit to you doesnt curl very much at all, but a corner OF position has a lot more curl on it making it harder for some people to play those positions.

But generally you are right that it is harder to play center based on the range you must cover, so i'd say that the range rating should change, but fielding wouldnt get better at LF and RF all the time.

Nick

[Clay Dreslough]

I didn't vote because playing 1B isn't harder. It's different.

Ken Griffey Jr. is a great outfielder, but I'd rather have John Olerud playing first base for me.

Nevertheless, I agree with this thread in general and I'm tweaking the engine right now to make it easier to move a player to 1B effectively.

(This will take effect in versions 5.39 and later).

Clay

[kaill]

If anyone can find any incidences of a player moving from OF to 1B whose defensive reputation dropped, or anything similar for any other OF position, I'd be interested to see it.
In my experience, players moving from OF to 1B see their defensive reputation go up. Delgado was a terrible outfielder. Olerud was tried briefly in LF, but didn't have the mobility and moved back to 1B.
At the other end, Scott Speizio is a great example - he was an average 2B, became a good 3B, and is now considered an excellent 1B.

I have never heard any incidences of a player moving from LF or RF to CF and actually getting better.