The reason behind the insanely low free agent prices (Clay plz read)...

[Particleman]

Alright as you all may or may not know, ever since the last update all-star free agents have been signing for insanely an insanely low 1-5 pts. I've thought it over as to why this was happening and I think I have come up with a detailed explanation. Ok first, the price free agents ask for drops A LOT, and I mean A LOT more than it does before. In the final sim of free agency, 70 pt players can be had for 1 measly pt. I think the reason the programmers made the change is because people complained, who put in a high max bid but their free agent did not get bid up, did not sign when they left their computer. Initially one would think that due to supply and demand that the prices would get bid up to the same levels anyways, right? Wrong. In most public leagues (I'm excluding the ones where 1/2 the players are dead) usually about 7 teams are active during any free agent season, for various reasons including just not being able to sit around at the computer, not needing any new players, having no cash to sign new players, etc. Add to this fact that a lot of these teams are not looking for players that play the same position, and you usually only have 2 players going after a specific player. Alright now to get a 70 pt player before, even in the last sim you would have to overbid the players asking price to about 15 (a reasonable price) in order to be sure he would sign, since sometimes even a red bar would not sign. Now a yellow bar and he will sign, even 1 pt. Ok since there are 2 players bidding on a player of a specific position, one would think that it would get bid up to market value right? Well, the reason this is not happening even if there are 5 players bidding on a specific player (like in some of the active private leagues), there are now cheap but still good 1 pt alternatives. I mean before bidding say up to 40 pts actually made some sort of sense, since it would take at least 15 pts to make sure you would get an even your second choice in the last round of bidding. So pitting the reward of having the top free agent in that position for 40+ pts against the alternative of having a lesser but still good player for 15 pts, it made sense for some to want to spend that bit extra. But now it just doesn't make sense to spend 40 or even 30 or even 20 or 10, when the alternative can be had for 1 pt since after the other player has gotten his player there is no one bidding on the second player. And with the assurance of the yellow bar, you know you're getting your player at 1 pt. In real life players would want to get paid what other players in their position are getting paid relative to their skill, throw into the mix agents, and even average/mediocre players don't sign at the minimum much less all stars.

To fix the problem of incredibly cheap free agents, the minimum a decent player can be signed for needs to be raised, to a reasonable level. It's all about cost/benefit, and 40+ pts vs 1 pt just doesn't make sense like I explained earlier when the 1 pt player isn't all that bad.

As for solving the problem of players not signing even though their max bid is higher than the players final asking price, the solution to this, is to eliminate the 1 pt bid on high quality free agents. Opening bids on free agents should be what their final asking price in the last round of free agent bidding is, and I don't mean the ludicrously low 1 pts for everyone it is now. The solution to the problem is not to have everyone sign at 1 pt at all costs.

Well, I've gone on too long. I just felt the point needed to be made, since this last change has thrown the whole game out of whack, since no one who can be around during free agent bidding even considers extending contracts anymore, and revenue has been made small factor in the game. I've been an advocate of making small markets more competitive, but if this just isn't realistic.

[jvford]

I agree completely although it would require me to change my strategy. I have made a habit of gobbling up all-star teams in March when there is plenty of talent left for very low prices, especially in pitching. Every once in awhile I have to spend some big bucks on a scarce position player but for the most part, I get players very cheap.

[Clay Dreslough]

In theory, all players should go to the highest bidder.

Unless they want to sit out a season, or go play in Japan.

Figuring out this "Japan" price is tricky, and I'm worried that the AI might not get it right, so for now I've made it so every player will sign to the highest bidder -- even if that bid is ridiculously low. The first Mogul CDs had problems with old stars (e.g. Bonds) sitting on the Free Agent list for years waiting for someone to pay his asking price, so in the most recent online code I made sure these players end up on someone's team.

But I understand your point, and I think I'll be shifting the free agent demands higher again to eliminate the problem of 1-point superstars.

Another thing that will fix this in some leagues is when I finally install bidding by CPU-controlled teams...

Clay

[kohut]

Personally if im a Barry Bonds I wouldnt sign for any less than 1/2 my value. If I cant get the money Id rather just sit out.

[kohut]

Personally if im a Barry Bonds I wouldnt sign for any less than 1/2 my value. If I cant get the money Id rather just sit out.

[Particleman]

I have no problem with people getting bargains, but 1-5 points for 7 years for someone who was asking for 70 points from his previous team just does not make sense. I think that everyone should sign as well. Perhaps something I mentioned in another thread is the solution talented players earning next to nothing in long term deals. In real life they have salary arbitration for stuff like this. Maybe after the all star player who signed for next to nothing, puts up amazing numbers for the team, should request salary arbitration. I'm not saying the all underpaid players should request arbitration, just the ones who are getting grossly underpaid.

[kingjames]

I think we're missing the obvious solution here.

What needs to be done is that the maximum number of years the player will sign for should fall at about the same ratio as the salary demand does. If the original demand isn't met, the player might agree to a lesser deal, but he's not going to let himself (or, more likely, his agent isn't going to let him) get locked into it for several years. Let the game reflect that.

[Slugger222]

Clay's solution is a good one. Once the Computer Controlled teams enter the bidding, those players will be getting bids from previously un-used sources.

I'd still like to see it coded that the minimum is higher than one point for superstars, though. Maybe 1/4 the original asking price.

[kingsodom]

I haven't followed the boards much since I started my new job, but here are my observations.

I'd think that once you are paying for a league, you would have more interest in watching the free agent market. But, relying on the players to police their league would be a mistake, IMO.
There needs to be a base level that these guys will accept to play. It seems it would be fairly easy to make this a flat percentage of their asking price. Also, I like the comment made before about players not taking long contracts for chump change salary. The length they are willing to sign for should also be proportional to the amount of money offer vs. the amount that is a fair market value. Of course, I think that most of these players ask for way more than what I would consider "fair market" and that's ok to ask for more than you're worth.
I haven't looked into how the game determines the actual value of the players or if the players will ask for a different value. I would probably have a 'hidden' value that the game set based on the actual sim stats for a given player. This would be consistant across all players in the whole game so that they are on relatively equal footing. This value would be the basis for what the minimum a given player will sign for. The players themselves should ask the same way they do now (which I don't have the foggiest). So, there should be a reasonable minimum 'wage' and no more 'everything's a dollar' players.

[Clay Dreslough]

I have just created some new code that will cause Free Agent player demands to drop more slowly, and never drop to extremely low levels.

This code should be live tonight (October 11, 2001)

Clay

[Slugger222]

That should be interesting....

I like that better than the other, but I'm sure that you will see some complaints from people who do not sign a player because the demands did not drop to his expectations......

Ya can't please all the people all the time!

[kingsodom]

I looked to see if someone posted this before but didn't see a thread.

I believe this may be an exploit.
I have also noticed teams who have very good players in the minors. These players are in a contract year, meaning they are up for new contracts. What I think is happening is these players are being sent to the minors so that they accumulate no statistics and therefore command a lower value and signing price than they should. Then they are signed to a long term deal at unfairly low cost.

Can anyone elaborate on this or am I missing something?
I might not be entirely sure/correct on how the whole value thing works for all players, not just minor leaguers.

-K

[Particleman]

Yep, some players do this so they can sign the player for less on their free agent year. I think the only thing that could be done to prevent this is to either make players disgruntled and demand a trade if they are a star and sent to the minors, or make them sign for the same high price for putting up good minor league numbers, this would of course cause all those young unproven players to ask for a boat load of money too though.

[Slugger222]

How do you know if someone is a "Star?" Success in previous seasons? Scouts rankings?

I think that this is going ot be a tough one to counter.

[kingsodom]

Yeah, that's a tough problem to tackle.

I don't know how much the rating actually mean to their statistic or performance, but power has always commanded the dollars. Maybe it would be possible to factor in a worth of each of the ability ratings.
Or as Particleman suggested, have a bias for players with a certain amount of major league time. So at least if you wanted to milk a contract you would have to leave the guy in the minors for a long time and not benefit from him, as opposed to just sending him down his contract year.

The players that lead me to this were Lance Berkman and Daryll Ward in Houston. I have Houston in Beta 80, and they have been workhorses. I was surprised when I found them in the minors for one of my other leagues. Both players have A rated power, plus or minus depending on your league and scouting value, etc. but the scouting reports almost always say to the effect of "MVP calibre, Best in the League, Hall of Famer, etc."
I know these guys are very good players and they should be making a good salary.

[Clay Dreslough]

Originally posted by kingsodom
What I think is happening is these players are being sent to the minors so that they accumulate no statistics and therefore command a lower value and signing price than they should. Then they are signed to a long term deal at unfairly low cost.

This is true. I had noticed this myself but hadn't fixed it yet. This should be significantly improved in the next version (CD patch 4.21 and the new online code, both posted within the next week).

Clay

[triple crown]

Maybe a way to counter this tactic is to not allow players with a certain amount of major league experience to be put in the minors.

In MLB players with enough experience have the right to refuse minor league assignments. I think Mogul Baseball should do the same. If a player has more than 2 years Major League experience than he cannot be demoted to the minors. If you want to clear room for another player than you would have to waive/cut a player from your active squad.

Just an idea, let me know whay you guys think.

[Particleman]

I like that idea triple crown, it would actually give us a reason to cut players, which is pointless now except to make budget space, but even then it's usually not worth the cash hit.

[dturkenk]

Except what if we want to send a player down while he's injured?

[kingsodom]

It is common for a player to do rehab in the minors and that is a valid reason for a veteran to be sent to the minors.