Ian or Clay please respond...

[gr8tsmitt]

I have just finished having a conversation with should be HOF Commish Lucidi (toogood69). We got into talking about how disgusted we have been with the SM Inc.'s customer relations. We have decided to compile a list of complaints on how poorly we as customers are being treated. There will be some who agree with our points, there will be others who won't; there is also the possibility that everyone will not get the chance to see this because it may be erased, but that wont stop us from reposting. I'd like a response from the upper management (Clay or Ian); no moderators please. No offense Tom or JW but they can’t hide behind their PR enforcers forever.

Here is our list...

-Our questions are never responded to, it is always the moderator’s job to calm the storm.

-Moderators always giving us the company line of 'we'll get to that; we'll look into that". We all appreciate what you two do, but I must say they can't pay you guys enough for the PR tactics you give them.

-E-mails are rarely responded to.

-There were about four pages of requests for updates from loyal customers. Did anyone even look into them?

-We waited a whole off-season for new updates to this game, and all we got in return were rosters that were not fully up to date, and a rookie rating system that has it's flaws.

-Before the farming bug was implemented, there were too many great rookies, a team could be rebuilt in a year or two. Now there is no point of investing into farming, the players are horrible. No middle ground was reached.

-One physical update to the game in the past year, strategies. It seems that it is only for show, because whatever a team’s strategies are set on it seems that the team does the polar opposite. If complaints were ever looked into, the displeasure of this could be seen.

-Management is so worried about keeping the people who buy the CD version of the game happy, who only pay a one-time fee, by constantly making updates. The online players, some of which surpass the one-time fee in two months, are left out to dry. What has been done to keep us happy?

-If it takes six months to update software from a CD game into an online game, than I’m sorry to say another job might be in best interest. Granted I don’t work with the same type of software in my job, but I do manage an Art Department for a sign company and have worked alongside businessmen and women of your nature. So I have the knowledge of knowing it should not take that long.

-One of the moderators had a meeting with some of the loyal GMs going over some creative ideas that would make the game more fun for everyone. If memory serves us correct, Clay did a few polls back in December asking which ideas would upgrade the game for us. What happened to those updates? Were they just for the CD version? I do not know the answer to that question because I refuse to purchase the CD version because like many online players I enjoy playing with live people rather than the computer.

-In the new version of the game hitting is great; pitching is suspect. This was reported to a moderator who in return said, “It would be looked into”. There are first place teams with team E.R.A’s over 5. Also there are too many mediocre players hitting well above expectations.

-Out of the top 150 prospects in MLB, less than half are actually in the game. Did you think someone wouldn’t notice this?

This is the list we have come up with, if I have missed something feel free to add. If someone doesn’t agree feel free to take shots at us. We just felt that we have been pushed around too long and something had to be said.

[lucidi35]

Mike, I think you stated everything in a professional manner. The ball is in there court...let's start the countdown to how many day's it will take before the paying customer's get some answers from EITHER Clay or Ian.

[dismaldream]

just like to say, i support you guys all the way.

im proud of you two taking a stand for the rest of us
and will watch this thread closely.

[monte]

Oh please, don't 'assume' these 2 speak for the rest of us. They along with a handful of others have been complaining almost non-stop since the beginning of the year. The majority of the players here just enjoy playing the game because its just that, a game.

How many times does Clay have to make a post that says he doesn't really post much and he would rather spend time working on the code then spend time working on posts before people get the point?

Could you guys ram down Clay's throat anymore the features you want to see added? It's not like we haven't seen them posted about a dozen times already. Maybe some will make it into the game and maybe some won't. This game can't be everything to everybody so let's let it be what Clay wants. In the end, you can decide whether its worth your 10 bucks a month.

As far as the recent problems, Clay has stated he is aware of them. Let the guy have a chance to iron out the problems. It might take some time but its not like he hasn't responded at all. We know he knows about them.

Lastly, here's my favorite quote from gr8tsmitt taken from a recent thread:


I've said this once and I'll say it again: BBM is only a game, I try not to get worked up in the politics of this game, I have more important things in life to deal with; I use this game as a recreational outlet to the real-life issues I must deal with everyday.

Those are your own words. It's time to practice what you preach and save the rest of us from reading these posts which are getting incredibly redundant.

Monte

[gr8tsmitt]

Yeah they are my own words, but when I'm paying for this game each month I should be able to state my displeasure, as well as anyone else. Maybe I don't speak for you, you don't have a problem with paying for the same product each month with no signifigant changes. On the other hand, I do not, so if I want to "rant" about my displeasure in the "Rants and Raves" thread I feel that I should be able to; it is a right that I am allowed, and one that I will take full advantaghe of. So you can take as many shots as you want Monte, but you're not the guy I want to hear from, nor do I care what you think. I challenge you or anyone else to dispute what I have said, it's all the truth. If you're on the payroll and are able to play a better game than I do then tell me where to sign up because I'd like to join!

[redaddy25]

I am with the arguement that I felt things should have been updated long before they were... And that is what led to me quitting for 3-4 months and then rejoining recently when there were roster updates...I know I wasnt the only one that quit b/c things were not updated.

Then when I went to sign back up I emailed with questions as to why my login didnt work... well luckily I decided to sign up for a new name b/c I still have not heard back from anyone 2-3 weeks later.

There are a lot of glitches in the update (rosters not updated (http://forum.sportsmogul.com/showthread.php3?s=&postid=147288#post147288), pitching is terrible, hitting is awesome, prospect problems), but since there was just an update I would just like to hear what is being fixed and how long it will take.

I just feel things should definitely be better for customers who pay $10-15 (most users) a month for the game.

Tim

[kaill]

Guys, I sympathize with your point, and agree with most of them. However, I've basically come to the conclusion that BBMO is a small company without the profit margin to hire additional people, and that Clay and Ian have enough on their hands without dealing with this stuff. They made one major feature update last year, and I'm expecting it will be the same this year. Indignant posts such as this, as justified as they may be, probably won't accomplish anything except starting arguments.

Just my two cents.

[21C]

I agree with kaill.

I'm sure that they have read the post and acknowledge what has been said. I'm also sure that you won't see a response since they are damned if they do and damned if they don't - and there'll be fewer flames if they don't.

[redaddy25]

Look at it this way for this point... If you were paying $10 a month for Internet Service, which many people do, and you were not getting responses from the company after weeks wouldn’t you be changing internet companies? Heck, I would be changing after days...

That is the way I feel about Sports Mogul... I pay $10 a month to play but I do not have the option of going elsewhere and neither do any of us.

I went through and tallied it up, right now there are approximately 1,050 teams signed up... say the average person is signed up for 3 teams at $3.31 a team... you do the math, and only one update per year and very little maintenance if any at all that I know of (but again I may be wrong).

[kaill]

I have news for you - $3000 a month is 36,000 a year, hardly enough to pay the salaries of the 5 or so people employed at the company.
They make a lot more money off the cd games, I hope, or the company would be going out of business.

Making known to Clay which features we would like him to add for next time is worthwhile, so that he doesn't waste time programming something people don't want. On the other hand, accusing him of being lazy (which is what people on here seem to be doing) is a little baffling to me.

[redaddy25]

"I have news for you - $3000 a month is 36,000 a year, hardly enough to pay the salaries of the 5 or so people employed at the company."

Before this goes any further I have nothing against you Kaill, I dont even know you, I am just arguing what is going on...

Look at it...

$35,000-$40,000 (guessing) a year in Online Mogul Sales...
Minus - Server
Minus - Web Fees

How long do you realistically think 5 paid employees of the company spend on BMO a year? There was 1 update in a 12 month period between roster updates, the Strategies which we all have our doubts about.

They are a company, they are supposed to make money... But this is a Monopoly so they dont have to worry about their customers... That is the whole problem, and they know they can get away with it... If High Heat or Out of the Park put there game online we wouldnt even be discussing this...

[chris2000001]

From what i hear its less than that $ wise at least, as redaddy says its not very much, and you think theyve only done one update? I dont know what youre smoking, all they do is updates, maybe not visible, but gameplay issues, balance and sof orth are always being done....

[JamesBaker]

If High Heat or Out of the Park put there game online we wouldnt even be discussing this...

Email them and ask them to.

ESPN Simulation is in the works...

[monte]

ESPN Simulation is in the works...

Oh great, another thing ESPN can charge out the *** for.

I already pay for an Insider subscription so I can read James Baker everyday, now they want more.

OK, that last part is a lie but if I did have an ESPN Insider subscription, I would read it. Instead, for now, I settle for the Baker's Dozen.

Anyway, ESPN has the resources to do something special but I'll wait to see the price tag. My experiences with them in fantasy games is that they don't put out a product that is that much above and beyond what even the free fantasy sites offer.

[kaill]

Look, my point is that they do NOT make a ton of money on BBMO. Some people here seem to think that they spend their time counting twenties, or something. It's not a big money-maker for them. The intelligent thing is to spend more of their time on the cd games that make more money.
And, how many online games have the designer actually coming online to poll people and discuss updates? I doubt espn simulation would have feedback like that...

[redaddy25]

http://games.espn.go.com/content/legends/2002/story?page=rulessetup

[williethebasset]

Another problem I have with them is banning people's IP address.

[Winks469]

Three days have passed and the only thing in this thread are the customers talking about how much the employees of this company make. I realize this is probably a subject that is being left to handle by whoever is in charge, but why does it take this long to give a response. I know you want to break down each topic discussed in the 1st post and answer it in the best possible way but it shouldn't take much more than another day or two.(not including the days already past) I would however be much happier if a change or two was made to the game while the rest of us discussed your reasons for absence. I also realize that there are a lot of threads where customers are complaining about the game, but at least have a moderator provide a link to previously discussed topics, especially when a lengthy list of problems are mentioned by one person. This will keep a few of us happy and keep them away from making the same complaints over and over again.

[monte]

I can't believe people haven't figured this out yet......they just don't post often on the boards.

Here's a quote from Clay recently posted in Baseball Mogul 2004 forum that kind of applies here:


First, I would actually hope we could go a week without posting and folks wouldn't freak out.

(What if we decided to take a vacation for the first time in about 5 years?)

Second, our presence on the boards has indeed been reduced. Black Tooth's failure to pay us meant that James Grove had to leave the company entirely.

Third, I have come to the opinion that our time is better spent fixing bugs the specifically responding to board posts and e-mails. This is true for Ian's time too. I usually get in this mood when I read a thread and I think to myself "gee, if I hadn't been answering e-mail the last 2 hours I probably could have fixed that bug."

So:

1) Use the forums to talk about issues and come to a general consensus about major issues with the game, or needs for improvement. Jokerswild is doing a great job of monitoring these threads and pointing our serious problems to me. Dee is also trying to help in this area.

2) If you have found a specific reproduce-able problem. Write an e-mail and send to clay@sportsmogul.com if it is "baseball-related" or "AI-related". Send to ian@sportsmogul.com if it appears to be "database-related" or a crash or similar bug.

If there is a vBulletin thread describing the problem, include the link (this is a quasi-democracy in that 5 people complaining about something tends to give it higher priority than 1 person).

2a) Don't PM me. I rarely get around to reading Private Messages on vBulletin.

2b) You probably won't get a response -- but I will ALWAYS add the report to my list of problems and get to work on it as soon as it's severity warrants, in my opinion.

BTW, right now I'm working on the simulation problems in the old Lahman years (e.g. pre-1990, with severe problems closer to 1900).

I'm also analyzing and trying to fix the sim imbalance in BMO between new (2003) and old databases ... and trying to get the Strategies page working in BMO.

We did recently post some new rosters to BMO, and some new code, and getting this working right has taken time from the CD version.

Clay

Of course, I'm sure we'll still see some more of the same posts around here continue.

[the3rdwiseman]

well, we have a quote now, and since I don't feel like thumbing through the boards, how about a link?

[gr8tsmitt]

Clay's post tells me all I need to know about their customer service!

[lucidi35]

6 days and no response from the 1 guy I wanted to hear from. Meanwhile we are losing some of the best GM's around because they don't care about the customer. Who cares though right?? Clay just got a new GM from the CD version to play and leave the league after the free month expires.

[JamesBaker]

Clay just got a new GM from the CD version to play and leave the league after the free month expires.

They offered 1 week free this year - no card, no explanation on how to play 1 free week of BBMO.

Toasters gone and yes, yes there's going to more.

Maybe they're doing away with the online version -- every indication points to this. Has anyone noticed how many have left??? At least they'll have fewer unhappy customers.

I'd be happy with a transaction list and team stats -- free fantasy baseball has that.


When BBMO gets down to 30 owners maybe we can consolidate leagues into 1 full one. I'm not hating , I'm just stating... what I'm hearing isn't good.

[edeutsch77]

Originally posted by JamesBaker
Toasters gone and yes, yes there's going to more.


I'm not gone because of where things are headed, my reason's are my own and have nothing to do with mogul in and of itself. They have to do with my personal choices.

[chris2000001]

Originally posted by lucidi35
6 days and no response from the 1 guy I wanted to hear from. Meanwhile we are losing some of the best GM's around because they don't care about the customer. Who cares though right?? Clay just got a new GM from the CD version to play and leave the league after the free month expires.

Did you not read the quote from clay's post? Get over yourself, your important to Sport Mogul , but are they gonna cry if you leave because they cant hold your friggen hand 24/7? I doubt it, they do their best, if thats not good enough for you or anyone else, thats cool, leave, some one who appreciates the effort everyone assosiated with this game puts in will take your place. For those who do leave, its your money, you got the right and the duty to put it where you think its best used, but Sport Mogul also has the duty to make the game better, not babysit upset users, if they had wanted to do that they could have become pre-school teachers not programmers. No offense to anyone by the way. Thank you for your time.

[lucidi35]

Did you not read the quote from clay's post? Get over yourself, your important to Sport Mogul , but are they gonna cry if you leave because they cant hold your friggen hand 24/7? I doubt it, they do their best, if thats not good enough for you or anyone else, thats cool, leave, some one who appreciates the effort everyone assosiated with this game puts in will take your place.

Sorry Chris, I forgot they got you on the payroll also. I don't get it...we are paying customer's to a product that is flawed. I am also a business owner. When a customer complains about a product I don't say I don't have time for you, deal with it or go elsewhere. I would never make any money that way.

We aren't asking for a world of updates. All we were asking for was alittle respect when it comes to customer relations. I have every right to complain when I was getting charged double for the service and it took 2 weeks to get a response.

Chris, if you like playing your leagues with GM's who are only gonna stick around until there free subscription runs out then that's fine. I don't enjoy that. I enjoy playing with GM's who I can count on. Guys I know will stick around. Not GM's who will leave after there free pass expires. If that's what you like then have a blast.

By the way, this thread wasn't made to rip other GM's. If you an issue with me you know how to contact me. I think it's more professional to talk to me through IM or PM rather than trying to insult or mock me in a forum. Don't get on my case because I'm not afraid to stick up for what's wrong.

[Tdks]

Originally posted by edeutsch77
I'm not gone because of where things are headed, my reason's are my own and have nothing to do with mogul in and of itself. They have to do with my personal choices.

I can tell you that Eric left for only one reason: He has finally entered the insanity stage of syphilis

[chris2000001]

Hey luicidi35, thats cool if thats what u think but ive never really had the problem of people quitting too much, i think the league i ran for 11 seasons is at 26 owners now, pretty low for an active league, i know how you feel but bitching and moaning about the same thing in 10 different threads isnt what clay or ian need to hear, they know the problems, and are trying to deal with them, but you gotto remember, they gotta eat, spend time with family and stuff as well, their only human, and dont think im trying to single you out cause i got a lot of respect for you as a mogul Gm and player.
Chris

[edeutsch77]

Originally posted by Tdks
I can tell you that Eric left for only one reason: He has finally entered the insanity stage of syphilis
Thanks, Tristan...I'll remember that one.

[chris2000001]

And luicidi, i wish i was on their payroll, that would be sweet, free mogul!

[Tdks]

Originally posted by edeutsch77
Thanks, Tristan...I'll remember that one.

I really thought you would appreciate that one... either that or leprosy.... or a freak accident that left you unable to type with your fingers or nose, and you hadn't mastered typing with your toes yet....

[jokerswild]

First of all I must appologize for my absence recently my wife fell off our porch a week ago on Sunday then we went to Vegas on Friday to take a look at a job offer I recieved (in fact I am looking at this from Vegas).

I have to say that a lot of this thread is based off the assumption that Clay, Dee, and Ian don't work on this product therefore no updates. This is completely untrue, they spend a ton of time trying to work out everything for this game and as Clay said fixing known bugs and taking situations which I send them and adding them to their list is the easiest way for them to stay focused and not have to shuffle through a million posts a day. I don't know anything about programming as I am sure 90% of the customer base doesn't, but I do know that sometimes things take a long long time for something that seems simple.

Hey I have nothing I can say outside of I will try and get him on that, or I will inform him of that, I am not paid for what I do, I do it because I want to help mogul out as much as posible. There are a lot of things that they would love to be able to do, but for lack of time. I think it makes sense that if they had to spend 4 hours a day (how much I spend looking at messageboards on a normal day) trying to figure out what is important or not then it would take away from the time frame they had to actually work on the product. So it is a catch 22 situation for them.

In conclusion I do understand where everyone is coming from, but disagree with you about it. It doesn't mean that they don't care (Clay has made this game CD and BMO a labor of love), if you work out the numbers and the time frame you will see that it isn't a simple situation. Yeah they are a small business trying to stay afloat, and there is another reason why they need all the help and support they can get with this game.

[jokerswild]

Originally posted by redaddy25
"I have news for you - $3000 a month is 36,000 a year, hardly enough to pay the salaries of the 5 or so people employed at the company."

Before this goes any further I have nothing against you Kaill, I dont even know you, I am just arguing what is going on...

Look at it...

$35,000-$40,000 (guessing) a year in Online Mogul Sales...
Minus - Server
Minus - Web Fees

How long do you realistically think 5 paid employees of the company spend on BMO a year? There was 1 update in a 12 month period between roster updates, the Strategies which we all have our doubts about.

They are a company, they are supposed to make money... But this is a Monopoly so they dont have to worry about their customers... That is the whole problem, and they know they can get away with it... If High Heat or Out of the Park put there game online we wouldnt even be discussing this...

Monopoly no, there are other games on the web like this, but they charge a ton more than Sports Mogul does for their product.

[gr8tsmitt]

Originally posted by jokerswild
In conclusion I do understand where everyone is coming from, but disagree with you about it. It doesn't mean that they don't care (Clay has made this game CD and BMO a labor of love), if you work out the numbers and the time frame you will see that it isn't a simple situation. Yeah they are a small business trying to stay afloat, and there is another reason why they need all the help and support they can get with this game.

Maybe true, but would it really hurt for them be more accessible to their customers? Being a little more customer friendly could go a long way for all parties!

[chris2000001]

:rolleyes:
No comment buddy.....

[monte]

:rolleyes:
Some people just don't get it

[iansmith]

Ok.. lots of things to respond to here.

Dee and Clay have been out of town on vacation this week for Easter.

Baseball Mogul Online is not being ignored. We do care about our customers, both online and CD.

There are only so many hours in a day. We spend a LOT of time reading the boards, responding to emails, dealing with problems. Do you know how many people a DAY email about having downloaded the game last month and now their hard drive died and they forgot their reciept, so now we have to spend 30 minutes tracking down their info and walking them through another download. We spend a LOT of time EVERY day dealing with customer support.

Let me try and explain how updates work. I don't like doing this, because anytime a company explains something, it sounds like an excuse and I hate that.

Baseball Mogul CD is released once a year. During the year we are adding new featurs, fixing bugs, changing things. This means that for much of the year, the game has half-finished features, things that don't work, and a lot of untested code. When a new release rolls around, we finish up features, playtest, bugfix, tweak and add new rosters. We can then take this code and make a new version of BMO which needs diffrent kinds of testing and debugging. If 5 our of 1000 leagues break with a new version, it's a disaster so we have to be very carefull. Even then, a 1000 leagues with hundreds of players can find bugs that the two of us can miss.

In short.. it's not easy to update BMO in the middle of the year. New versions are a LOT of work. There is no such thing as a simple bug. ANY change can have hundreds of unforseen side effects, and testing a game line BMO which play for 100 years into the future is very time consuming.

Keeping up with all the postings of a hundred threads and responding to dozens every day is a full time job, and we unfortunatly don't have the manpower for it.

We DO track every bug posted here, and emailed. BMO updates will be coming up, but I can't say when. We are working on it.

--
Ian Smith
Sports Mogul Inc.

[Tdks]

Thanks for the response, Ian, I know many will appreciate it....

[edeutsch77]

Originally posted by Tdks
I really thought you would appreciate that one... either that or leprosy.... or a freak accident that left you unable to type with your fingers or nose, and you hadn't mastered typing with your toes yet....

I can touch type with my toes...I learned quick.

[lucidi35]

Thanks for the long overdue response.

[DaveHorn]

I think the Sports Mogul customer service is very good, considering the size of the company I'd say it is excellent. But even if I agreed with you guys, your constant whining about customer service would still drive me crazy.

As paying customers we all have a right, almost a responsibilty even, to let Sports Mogul know how we feel. But how many times do you got to say the same thing over and over? You whiners are taking time away from the staff to do actual work to improve the game. They have heard and recognized your complaints multiple times. Quit it already. Move on to another game or something. How many times do you need to register your complaint to be happy? Barring a sudden spike in paying customers, the customer service isn't going to change. They have read and recognized your complaint, please find something new to complain about or move on to another game.

John, a got a bone to pick with you. I chose not to not keep it private through PM because I think others should know your not always a man of your words. And since you brought your character into this argument, I shall as well.


Originally posted by lucidi35
I enjoy playing with GM's who I can count on. Guys I know will stick around. Not GM's who will leave after there free pass expires. If that's what you like then have a blast.


You up and left with no word the very league that defines your above quote. AGML is almost a year and a half old. AGML has the strongest core group of GMs of any league I've ever seen. AGML is the only league still going on strong with the 2001 rosters that I'm aware of. Matter of fact you left AGML without a word, hours after you said you'd stick around for a few days to see how the league shakes out. I was commish an hour after you said you'd stick around for a few days, but you were already gone. Couldn't wait to go join that new league full of new GMs with their free month or what? You must be a good commish, because from what I've read most of your GMs think as much. But cleary, the only things you are looking for in a league is not just what you posted above. Below is a link to the thread I am referring to.

http://forum.sportsmogul.com/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=28910


Kaill, so when you coming back to AGML? I see its still in your sig. :)

[lucidi35]

That's fine if you think Sports Mogul customer service is good. I don't. I got charged double for 2 months and it took 2 weeks for me to get a response. I have every right to complain about that. If you would have took the time to read that, you would have saw that being overcharged was my biggest problem. That and being ignored for 2 weeks. Yeah, I want some updates just as much as the next guy but customer support was my biggest issue with them just as it with many.

Now about me leaving your league...to me this just sounds like a commish who is bitter about losing someone. You wanna rip me and say I'm not a man of my word that's fine. I'm pretty loyal to every league I join. When time comes and I decide to move on I leave a post or contact the commish. I think I left on bad terms in 1 league. I don't recall the circumstances. And for the record, I do believe I stuck around for more than an hour after you took over. I was just tired of the 10/sim just as I got tired of the 20/sim and left DGM's league. Oh and I did leave a "leaving post" in there as I do in any league I choose to leave.

[DaveHorn]

I'm not bitter, just dissappointed you left without a word. If you left a leaving post, find it and link it, and I'll apologize. I could certainly be making a mistake, but I'm pretty sure your post in the thread I linked was the last thing you ever said to the league. Being a commish with a good reputation, I expected more from you, but I guess that was my mistake.

I never said you didn't have right to complain, I said just the opposite. But complaining over and over again each time about the same thing and demanding a response is doing nothing to improve the game or customer service.

Regarding your personal customer service problem. I guess its just a matter of what you expect. That is about what I would expect from a company of this size. Depending upon the timing of things they probably got it fixed in time before you got double billed again. And I'm also willing to bet that they credited your account quickly without issue for the 2 or 3 months they double billed you as well.

[the3rdwiseman]

Matter of fact you left AGML without a word, hours after you said you'd stick around for a few days to see how the league shakes out. I was commish an hour after you said you'd stick around for a few days, but you were already gone.

I'm not really seeing how you can use that thread to try and discredit lucidi. It's fairly apparent to me from the tone in that thread that lucidi wasn't really interested in staying around anyways.

He never said anything along the lines of 'OK, I'm leaving.' You had your warning. Get over it.

Maybe the expectations on customer service of some people are too low, and the expectations of other people are too high.

With that said, all this bickering, and attacking of people who do raise concerns, is only going to increase of hostility in some threads, and make an already negative situation worse.

Sports Mogul can take care of itself. They have diligent moderators who can watch the threads for them and direct major concerns to the staff.

If all the defenders want to help Sports Mogul, I suggest this.

If a concern has already been raised and answered in another thread, then quote the answer and attach a link for it. Don't just attack a person (this goes for both sides).

If a concern has not been raised, then just let it go. Don't use the 'people complain too much defense.' If you want to help, then just shut-up. You start attacking people, and complaining about their complaining, you just make matters worse. If I spent the time, I could probably find countless threads that have spiraled out of control because of this. I can already think of a three off the top of my head, including this one.

So send your flames because I'm sure there are people out there who aren't willing to see both sides of the story.

[the3rdwiseman]

As paying customers we all have a right, almost a responsibilty even, to let Sports Mogul know how we feel.

Being a little more customer friendly could go a long way for all parties!

In conclusion I do understand where everyone is coming from, but disagree with you about it. It doesn't mean that they don't care (Clay has made this game CD and BMO a labor of love), if you work out the numbers and the time frame you will see that it isn't a simple situation. Yeah they are a small business trying to stay afloat, and there is another reason why they need all the help and support they can get with this game.

I am also a business owner. When a customer complains about a product I don't say I don't have time for you, deal with it or go elsewhere. I would never make any money that way.

Yeah they are my own words, but when I'm paying for this game each month I should be able to state my displeasure, as well as anyone else. Maybe I don't speak for you

[monte]

If you want to help, then just shut-up. You start attacking people, and complaining about their complaining, you just make matters worse.

So correct me if I'm wrong but this how I am translating that whole post:

'When you see a negative post, don't respond to it because it causes the thread to spiral out of control and the original point of the complainer is lost.

Let people bash the game and do nothing about it because their opinion is worth more than yours. Clearly, if that person wants a feature added to the game, it must be something that everyone wants.

Don't use the 'people complain too much defense' because it is true but after all the squeaky wheel gets oil. Even though we know Clay is working on fixing the issues that have come up repeatedly in multiple threads (although both sides should refrain from creating multiple threads), the important thing is to allow the complainers to keep complaining and not add fuel to the fire.'

That's the way it came across to me anyway.... but of course I know I am exagerrating, I more or less see what your point is. I like to defend BMO because for my $10 a month, its is a very enjoyable game to play.

I also recognize that given the size of the company, we shouldn't expect nor do we need a constant presence on the boards. Amazingly, regardless of how many times Clay posts why he doesn't post, people still don't get it.

So, I'll continue to post and stir things up whereever I see fit. Particularly in a thread like this because for $10 (or 5 or 15) a month, people wouldn't be here if it wasn't worth their money, so why waste time complaining? That is where I have trouble 'seeing the other side of the story'

[Tdks]

Originally posted by gr8tsmitt
Yeah they are my own words, but when I'm paying for this game each month I should be able to state my displeasure, as well as anyone else.

Curious, does my paying for this game every month give me the same right to tell people to shut the **** up when they are being whiny bitches?

[nysteinbrenner]

Originally posted by Tdks
Curious, does my paying for this game every month give me the same right to tell people to shut the **** up when they are being whiny bitches?

If you were an American, yes, because its guaranteed in our constitution. But being Canadian, I'm not sure if the Canada Act of 1867 covers that one... :)

[gr8tsmitt]

Originally posted by Tdks
Curious, does my paying for this game every month give me the same right to tell people to shut the **** up when they are being whiny bitches?

Just the same right that I have to tell people who haven't agreed with me to shut the **** up, but I have tried not to stoop to that level. I welcomed everyone's opinions, good or bad, so I was not about to get on anyone for not agreeing with my point of view. All we wanted was some sort of feedback from a paid employee of SM, and in a week all we got was one. I understand that a small business is a 24/7 job, and that they are constantly trying to fix bugs and any other necessary problems. All that I have asked for was for them to be a little more acessible to their customers; there is nothing wrong with that.

We were ripped as well as complemented for making our comments, both of which we took in stride knowing that everyone has the right to their own opinions. We had one opinion others felt differently, but in no way did we try to rip into anyone for not agreeing with us or even try to persuade them into agreeing with us. That's a beautiful aspect of freedom of speech; everyone can have their own opinions.

[Tdks]

I was just making the point that you are allowed to complain, and then you complain about being shot down... these boards are for everyone, so if you want to complain, expect that some people will come right back at you... as so you have the right to complain, and as do the rest of us have the right to shoot you down....

[gr8tsmitt]

I knew where you were going with your post. Like I said I knew what I was getting myself into, I welcomed all responses.

[Tdks]

I just enjoyed the way I made my point... it's so much more fun that way...

[kaill]

The thing that bothers me is people complaining that even though jokerswild responds to them, they want CLAY or IAN to respond.
Listen: joker's role with sportsmogul is to monitor the boards and respond. He is unpaid, and does a lot of work. Clay and Ian are responsible for programming issues and the like. They post far more often than I would like them to, because I would rather see them programming than dealing with this dumb stuff.
And, though I somewhat disagree with davehorn's aggresive tone, I agree with the gist of his post. These things have been said before. I honestly don't think anyone wants to read about how personally unhappy anyone here is. If you don't like the game, leave. You're not going to singlehandedly get features added. Give up.

And, dave, I hadn't noticed that was in my sig still ;) I'm actually only in two leagues now, I don't have time for three. Something of a waste of money but I was frankly tired of my Cubs team and something had to give (i have two collicky five-month old boys and they apparently hate me or are satanically possessed or something).
In a month or so, I'll be looking for a third league and I'll check out my old buds at AGML =P

[jokerswild]

Kaill, I appreciate what you said, it is very frustrating for me to constantly be looking at posts and reporting them ect just to have people want Clay and Ian to take care of it themselves. It makes me feel like what I do doesn't really make a difference, because everyone still wants Clay and Ian to look at their post and respond to it. Believe me I keep Clay and Ian incrediably busy looking at posts that are extremely important. In fact I AIMed Ian about this post the very day I responded.

I spend 25-30 hours a week minimum reading these posts, going through what might need to have a high high priority and not. I also get at least 30-40 instant messages a day about some kind of information needed. If sportsmogul could afford to pay me I am sure they would, but they can't. It still doesn't mean that I am still not just as involved in the process (well maybe not just as involved, but involved) of making this game and community better.

Thanks very much for allowing me to get on my soapbox.

[DaveHorn]

Kaill - I feel your pain. I can't imagine how you find time to manage two teams with two 5 mos olds. I don't know if they are your first kids or not, but in my experience, its not going to get much easier until they are 2ish. Good luck with them.

You welcome back to AGML anytime. Don't forget to look us up when you find time for a 3rd team. League is still going strong, 3 new GMs this week, says a lot for a league that started in 2001.