Honest opinion of Michael Moore...

[Jeffy25]

Politicians in France (#1 in Healthcare and have socialized HC) are scared to death to do anything to upset the people. Don't you remember all the student protest a few years ago when they tried to change one small thing (tenure for teachers, I believe).

THAT'S the kind of government we need.

Now, politicians are paid by the lobbyists of major corporations to basically do their bidding, and the politicians have no worries about getting re-elected because we are too busy trying to dig our way out of debt or collect more things than our neighbors to even look up to give a ****.



So, some socialism is good, while some is bad? How can you tell where the line is? It's okay to have the government arrest an arsonist who tried to burn down your house, and to have the government put out the fire in your house, but ask the government to bandage the burn you got from the fire... psst, why don't you go dig up Stalin and suck his ****, you painty waist hippie, pinko.

:rolleyes:

no need in name calling :p

and i think i addressed this answer in my previous post.

that some is good, that we need a balance....and there are some lines....as i asked HGM earlier....where do you draw the line?

if healthcare is free, they why shouldn't food be free? why shouldn't shelter be free? these are basic needs as well.


We have learned that military, police, fire etc do need to be regulated and controlled by a governing body...we have learned that from countless history lessons.

and we can also look to other nations who are struggling with their health care systems and say, well ****...they didn't figure it out either........great concept....but it fails in the end.........it just does.


yes, it would be great if Thomas Jefferson got the gov't he wanted....one that fears the people, but that isn't our reality right now, and giving them more control won't make them fear us any more....think that one through.

[Jeffy25]

On the contrary I think we would do just fine with neither democrats and republicans, they have held power waaaaaaayyyy to long.

i agree....but they need each other is what i was trying to say....i don't think we as the people need either.

[Jeffy25]

See, though, Rage, everything has to fit in its box. Every idea is either all wrong or all right, and it's impossible to pick the good from one idea and another to create an even better idea. It has to be all or nothing.

no one has said any such a thing.....at all....or even close to imply that everything is black and white, in fact, i believe what we have been arguing is about fixing that.

[SirKodiak]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLf1IXPZPq8

[free2131]

if healthcare is free, they why shouldn't food be free? why shouldn't shelter be free? these are basic needs as well.


Firstly, we forget that nothing in a socialist idea is free, as we as a whole pay for it evenly. Secondly, yes people should be able to eat and should able to have shelter without a multi-billion dollar corporation profit from it.

[HoustonGM]

if healthcare is free, they why shouldn't food be free? why shouldn't shelter be free? these are basic needs as well.
And, as I've repeatedly said, there are ways to get free food and shelter for those that can't afford it.

[Jeffy25]

And, as I've repeatedly said, there are ways to get free food and shelter for those that can't afford it.

the same with






























































































HEALTHCARE!








































amazing!

[ragecage]

Nice SirK. :D

I for one am gonna stick by Obama in what is happening with this healthcare reform. I know to some its all bad, to some its all good. What sways me over to his side about this, is he actually comes off as somebody who really honestly cares about this country. Not only that but he has everything to lose as well.

I dont like throwing race out there. But he is the first black president. Do you honestly think he wants to become the worst president we ever had? What do you think that will say about his race. Smart people wouldnt think like that, but there are sure a lot of friggen retards in this country that hold the power to never even consider voting for a black man as president again.

I would like to think with that at stake, he will do the right things and we will be better off for it, not worse. Im hoping anyway.

[Jeffy25]

I'm starting to believe that people hear these success stories of CEO's or hear what kind of money that a large corporation made in a year and think.......how unfair, rather then looking at how much good that company creates by doing so well or by the even better margin, trying to find a way to do that for themselves. the woah is me attitude everything needs to be free (i get where your name comes from) people shouldn't be allowed to make money agenda is just a pitty party attitude rather then a peace attitude.

[free2131]

Jeffy, when I see that deduction from my check for Social Security, the first thing I think of is an elderly person having a hot meal and not having to wear 16 layers to keep warn in her house that she was able to have from HFH with more of my tax dollars.

So tell me, is that really so evil, because it is socialism at work. Wouldn't be great if NO ONE had to worry about having a hot meal, or a place to stay warm? We have the pwoer to make that happen now, except for one thing. Greed.

Call me an idealist, a hippie, Commie, or as Lennon would say, a "dreamer", but I think its worth it.

[Jeffy25]

Nice SirK. :D

I for one am gonna stick by Obama in what is happening with this healthcare reform. I know to some its all bad, to some its all good. What sways me over to his side about this, is he actually comes off as somebody who really honestly cares about this country. Not only that but he has everything to lose as well.

I dont like throwing race out there. But he is the first black president. Do you honestly think he wants to become the worst president we ever had? What do you think that will say about his race. Smart people wouldnt think like that, but there are sure a lot of friggen retards in this country that hold the power to never even consider voting for a black man as president again.

I would like to think with that at stake, he will do the right things and we will be better off for it, not worse. Im hoping anyway.

best argument i have read about this whole debate....you are right cagey....but i don't believe in this concept until i can see an execution strategy that actually makes sense.

[ragecage]

best argument i have read about this whole debate....you are right cagey....but i don't believe in this concept until i can see an execution strategy that actually makes sense.

Thanks I do agree with Free, and it would be really cool to dream that maybe one day where the human race will strive to work together and everything be free. Its a dream however, but a great damn dream I wish would come true.

[Jeffy25]

Jeffy, when I see that deduction from my check for Social Security, the first thing I think of is an elderly person having a hot meal and not having to wear 16 layers to keep warn in her house that she was able to have from HFH with more of my tax dollars.

So tell me, is that really so evil, because it is socialism at work. Wouldn't be great if NO ONE had to worry about having a hot meal, or a place to stay warm? We have the pwoer to make that happen now, except for one thing. Greed.

Call me an idealist, a hippie, Commie, or as Lennon would say, a "dreamer", but I think its worth it.

I actually, am a pretty liberal republican in comparision to many of my fellow Republicans....on many ideas. i.e. death penalty for example.

well to further that example, i do believe in senior care and care for the young and uneducated. I do appreciate some of the social programs that we have for the 0-18 and 65 plus crowd, but honestly....anyone that isn't in that age bracket (basically the 18-65) should not be getting any hand outs (IMO). I understand disabilities as well....but in my very honest opinion, if you are in that age range, there are no excuses for not bettering yourself or working toward helping yourself and the others around you, i don't care what your scenario is...

i appreciate many programs that are in place currently for those that need help. Medicare for example, i don't completely hate (not a major fan, but) don't completely hate it. what i am more of a fan of.............are charities....Meals on Wheels, United Way (one of my biggest accounts), Habitat for Hummanity, Big Brothers Big Sisters etc. I will happily support organizations who greatly care where their donor dollars and volunteer hours go toward.

I could preach for days about all the good our United Way does here.

[free2131]

I'm starting to believe that people hear these success stories of CEO's or hear what kind of money that a large corporation made in a year and think.......how unfair, rather then looking at how much good that company creates by doing so well or by the even better margin, trying to find a way to do that for themselves. the woah is me attitude everything needs to be free (i get where your name comes from) people shouldn't be allowed to make money agenda is just a pitty party attitude rather then a peace attitude.

Jeffy, I've never in my life had any assistance from the government, nor have I been without a job for longer that 2 months. I work simply to pay off my debts and to be able to live. I've never said that "everything needs to be free". Eventually I hope we overcome our greed to be able to work soley to better ourselves and humanity, but until we do, should we at least be able to not hav to worry about getting sick or eating?

How much more could I do, and how much more could I contribute to society if I didn't have that worry or that debt?

(BTW, free comes from my full name, Jeffrey)

[free2131]

See, Jeffy, I really think that most people don't contibute becomes of the system we have in place. They feel like they won't ever have enough money or be able to have the things that society tells us we have to have to be happy, so they just quit.

Call me naive if you want, but I truly believe more people in our age range and up who are able but unwilling to work would be willing to do so if they didn't have that enormous weight on their shoulders.

Of course, some people are just lazy. I still don't want a lazy person to starve to death.

[Jeffy25]

Jeffy, I've never in my life had any assistance from the government, nor have I been without a job for longer that 2 months. I work simply to pay off my debts and to be able to live. I've never said that "everything needs to be free". Eventually I hope we overcome our greed to be able to work soley to better ourselves and humanity, but until we do, should we at least be able to not hav to worry about getting sick or eating?

How much more could I do, and how much more could I contribute to society if I didn't have that worry or that debt?

(BTW, free comes from my full name, Jeffrey)

Ya, i felt kind of like a jackass for making that comment after I posted it, hopefully i didn't hurt your feelings, it was uncalled for....sorry brother.

to contribute to society....give back, volunteer....that is the best way to contribute to society.....a fantastic way, and a personal retirement plan of mine.

I have a give first attitude, that is very obvious if you got to know me....and that continues in what i accomplish in my daily work life...i want to effect many people for the better in my life...and one of those ways is by providing jobs, and helping my community and business arena by establishing myself as a success.

But you must remember that greed may be a deadly sin....but it also does a lot of good by existing.

So many protesters hate Wal-Mart, but if you look at all the good they do in the long haul, how much money they give away, how many jobs they create and how much money they save the american people, you start to realize, that Wal-Mart (for example) goes good by doing well. Greed isn't the worst thing in the world as so many people are so quick to assume (just like i am quick to assume that Communism is the worst fate of man).

[Jeffy25]

lazy people are like one of my top 10 biggest pet peeves....what ever happened to work ethics?


to be honest, sorry, i know this is generalizing, but i haven't met a liberal that worked more then 40 hours a week in their lives....i just haven't met one.

[ragecage]

If you really want to get at the core of the problem of what makes somebody not contribute, or even being lazy, is how they grew up. A lot of parents should not have any business bringing a life into this world. I was lucky, I had my grandma teach me about love, manners and being right with people.

The majority however have it bad, they go through a lot of crap, and by the time they need to get on their own, their parents who have a hard time getting by themselves didnt give the kid the tools needed to survive in life. It sounds cruel but I really think something should be done to weed out these bad parents, who have nothing better to do than ****, and then **** over a new born kid.

[Jeffy25]

See, Jeffy, I really think that most people don't contibute becomes of the system we have in place. They feel like they won't ever have enough money or be able to have the things that society tells us we have to have to be happy, so they just quit.

Call me naive if you want, but I truly believe more people in our age range and up who are able but unwilling to work would be willing to do so if they didn't have that enormous weight on their shoulders.

Of course, some people are just lazy. I still don't want a lazy person to starve to death.

hell i starved when creating this business....and i'm not kidding. i literally lived on Ramen noodles for basically two years.....i have made some crazy ass sacrifices to hopefully bootsrap an incredibly successful business......a ton of times i have had 4 dollars in my checking account that has to last me until an account pays me, which could be weeks.....it's just a part of the game, we are much better off now, but CMG has come a long way....and it has been a hard road with zero financial help from anyone, just difficult sacrifices an insane work ethic and awesome sales skills....but i also learned awesome lessons by being in that kind of a corner. nothing erks me anymore...nothing worries me (until my son is born at least) and i handle pressure situations like a badass.....now.


I am a believer that you have to fail before you can succeed in life....you have to know how shitty it can be before you can appreciate what great things can happen to you in life.


the people that are dying for "change" i will say this.....remember that you as an American proabably have it better then 99 percent of the world has it.....be careful what you wish for when you ask for change.....

[SirKodiak]

to be honest, sorry, i know this is generalizing, but i haven't met a liberal that worked more then 40 hours a week in their lives....i just haven't met one.

You should try to get to know some union people then. We used to put in 84 hours a week for weeks at a time, and there were more than a few liberals there.

[ragecage]

hell i starved when creating this business....and i'm not kidding. i literally lived on Ramen noodles for basically two years.....i have made some crazy ass sacrifices to hopefully bootsrap an incredibly successful business......a ton of times i have had 4 dollars in my checking account that has to last me until an account pays me, which could be weeks.....it's just a part of the game, we are much better off now, but CMG has come a long way....and it has been a hard road with zero financial help from anyone, just difficult sacrifices an insane work ethic and awesome sales skills....but i also learned awesome lessons by being in that kind of a corner. nothing erks me anymore...nothing worries me (until my son is born at least) and i handle pressure situations like a badass.....now.


I am a believer that you have to fail before you can succeed in life....you have to know how shitty it can be before you can appreciate what great things can happen to you in life.


the people that are dying for "change" i will say this.....remember that you as an American proabably have it better then 99 percent of the world has it.....be careful what you wish for when you ask for change.....

Oh I failed miserably before I am where I am at right now. I agree 100%.

[free2131]

Well, I once had 2 jobs for about 6 months working somewhere around 80-90 hours a week when my wife got sick and couldn't work, so there's one. ;)

Anyway, I don't take anything on the internet personally, and I love debating and getting into debates, but I never mean anything personally toward anyone. I and a friend of mind would get into drag out debates (I mean, fists were close to flying) then go and grab a beer and bowl. I never equate a person's political or religious beliefs with who they are as a person.

Case in point, I'm not a big fan of Michael Moore, even though I share some of his beliefs, and my buddy Brandon is the biggest Conservative I know... and my best friend. ;)

[Jeffy25]

If you really want to get at the core of the problem of what makes somebody not contribute, or even being lazy, is how they grew up. A lot of parents should not have any business bringing a life into this world. I was lucky, I had my grandma teach me about love, manners and being right with people.

The majority however have it bad, they go through a lot of crap, and by the time they need to get on their own, their parents who have a hard time getting by themselves didnt give the kid the tools needed to survive in life. It sounds cruel but I really think something should be done to weed out these bad parents, who have nothing better to do than ****, and then **** over a new born kid.

my father was a tough love son of a *****...and still is.

almost to a fault where he crosses the line.....i to will be that way with my son. and alyssa is a very loving and nurturing woman....we will balance each other pretty well we think.

My dad has made a great wealth for he and my mother as they enter retirement....and he worked his arse off and came from nothing (that whole story). no one paid for his education, no one helped him through the military, and his family ostracized him when he quit the seminary to marry my mother.......he had tough lessons handed to him throughout his life, and he has done the same with me. and he has offered no financial help or hinderance to me in my life....you want it junior, you go and get it mentality...this wealth was created for your mother :)


I will make damn sure to be a good father to my son, part of what will make me becoeme a good father.....not enabling him to be lazy, to not allow things to be handed to him.....he will have to work his ass off in this lifetime, but he will also know how to handle it when **** gets tough, and how to enjoy it when life is good to him.....but i sure as hell ain't gonna be spoiling him like he is metsguy (sorry MG)

[Jeffy25]

Well, I once had 2 jobs for about 6 months working somewhere around 80-90 hours a week when my wife got sick and couldn't work, so there's one. ;)

Anyway, I don't anything on the internet personally, and I love debating and getting into debates, but I never mean anything personally toward anyone. I and a friend of mind would get into drag out debates (I mean, fists were close to flying) then go and grab a beer and bowl. I never equate a person's political or religious beliefs with who they are as a person.

Case in point, I'm not a big fan of Michael Moore, even though I share some of his beliefs, and my buddy Brandon is the biggest Conservative I know... and my best friend. ;)

I agree, and if we were in the same room, we could continue this debate in person with a bottle of jack :p

I appreciate being able to debate with someone who at least understands how to communicate and that nothing is ever personal, you have to remember that you are debating the idea, not the person.

that and i have to get my fill...most of the people i know either agree with me, or don't like to talk politics or religion etc etc etc etc....

[Jeffy25]

You should try to get to know some union people then. We used to put in 84 hours a week for weeks at a time, and there were more than a few liberals there.

don't get me started on unions.

[ragecage]

Religion I tend to shy away from that. Im up for anything else though. As far as the bottle of Jack goes, yuck! Give me tequila or jeger all day. :)

[ragecage]

No, we shouldn't weed out 'bad' parents. We should give them free healthcare and prenatal care so they can bring more irresponsible kids into the world so we have to take care of more. It gives me a warm fuzzy feeling...how bout you. Kumbaya all...good night.:)

I like this Brad fellow. :)

[Jeffy25]

No, we shouldn't weed out 'bad' parents. We should give them free healthcare and prenatal care so they can bring more irresponsible kids into the world so we have to take care of more. It gives me a warm fuzzy feeling...how bout you. Kumbaya all...good night.:)

if i could kiss a man.















wait i mean............

[Jeffy25]

I like this Brad fellow. :)

I agree....has made like two comments, both solid and short.....

[free2131]

don't get me started on unions.

Especially since he's a business owner...









;)

[ragecage]

if i could kiss a man.















wait i mean............

Dont say that TNP will get jealous. :D

[Jeffy25]

Especially since he's a business owner...









;)

yes, as you could probably tell, i obviously view this in a very specific light.

Sorry to beat up on MM.....but i really can not stand the man....but as i said earlier....i also can not stand O'Rielly or Limbaugh either.

[ragecage]

I dont know anyone that can stand any of those blow hards.

[Jeffy25]

i dont know anyone that can stand any of those blow hards.

mg and the likely 12 others that voted as such.

[ragecage]

He doesnt count, his pov is invalid in all 50 states.

[free2131]

Well, I've never met anyone who says that unions weren't needed back when people worked 16 hour days with no breaks under dangerous workinf conditions.

As with anything in life, there are good and things about unions, but I do happen to think that the good outweigh the bad.

[free2131]

Depending on your political leanings, I think you can lump Moore, Coutler, Limbaugh, Savage, O'reilly, Olberman, ect. into the group of "yeah I agree with them somewhat, but **** are they assholes."

[ragecage]

I dont like Unions myself just because you have to pay extra out of a paycheck for them. Its like a business inside a business. Back in the good ol days theres usually enough jobs out there to wear businesses can compete with union jobs and offer basically what you get with unions. I cant say its true now, but heck I dont care, I love who ive been working for. I just hope work picks back up again.

[Jeffy25]

Depending on your political leanings, I think you can lump Moore, Coutler, Limbaugh, Savage, O'reilly, Olberman, ect. into the group of "yeah I agree with them somewhat, but **** are they assholes."

can we put that as the heading of this thread?

[ragecage]

can we put that as the heading of this thread?

Thats what I thought it read all along. ;)

[SirKodiak]

don't get me started on unions.

*chuckle* It would hardly matter, methinks. Nothing personal, but I went from ignorant and adamantly anti-union to having experience and pro-union over a period of many years. You might come up with something that is new to me and surprise me though.

I have crossed aggressive picket lines that threatened violence, later worked with those same picketers who hated me, lost my brother and friends to flagrant corporate greed, been a union officer, took on management as a safety rep, and been in management (replacing low value employees with high value employees and using efficiency and morale to, in 9 months, take an assembly line from a month behind schedule to 2 months ahead of schedule with increased QA and QC while demand was increasing and the number of workers were not). I have been in a union that didn't care (IBEW) and one that did (OCAW). I have 2 problems with unions, that they are not powerful enough, and that a lot of the people in them do no care enough beyond what they personally can gain from them.

Priorities for unions as I see it:

Safety
Worker Rights
Working with Management towards the goal of efficient and quality work that is rewarded properly
Everything else.


I don't know if Michael Moore has done anything about unions, but even if he was pro-union, I doubt I would like it because of how he goes about doing things. The journey, not the destination, for me.

[Jeffy25]

*chuckle* It would hardly matter, methinks. Nothing personal, but I went from ignorant and adamantly anti-union to having experience and pro-union over a period of many years. You might come up with something that is new to me and surprise me though.

I have crossed aggressive picket lines that threatened violence, later worked with those same picketers who hated me, lost my brother and friends to flagrant corporate greed, been a union officer, took on management as a safety rep, and been in management (replacing low value employees with high value employees and using efficiency and morale to, in 9 months, take an assembly line from a month behind schedule to 2 months ahead of schedule with increased QA and QC while demand was increasing and the number of workers were not). I have been in a union that didn't care (IBEW) and one that did (OCAW). I have 2 problems with unions, that they are not powerful enough, and that a lot of the people in them do no care enough beyond what the personally can gain from them.

Priorities for unions as I see it:

Safety
Worker Rights
Working with Management towards the goal of efficient and quality work that is rewarded properly
Everything else.


I don't know if Michael Moore has done anything about unions, but even if he was pro-union, I doubt I would like it because of how he goes about doing things. The journey, not the destination, for me.

incredibly well said.

[Jeffy25]

ya know, i do enjoy Penn and Teller's ******** show quite a bit....they seem to form their opinions on a matter AFTER they learn more on that subject.

[Sipimi]

Can we get some canadians that are here to weigh in?

You asked for it Jeffy! ;)

I must say I agree with most of what Free and HGM have said.

It’s very interesting that the Canadian health care system is now something of a national symbol not to be touched, but that the idea actually came from the Truman administration 70 years ago. The different political systems were most likely a key factor in the decision for both countries.

I like the universal health care system better for anthropological, economical, philosophical and sociological reasons. I won’t elaborate on #1, #3 and #4 since the debate seems to focus on economical arguments.

The free market theory doesn’t work with the health system, because you can’t get optimal results in the health system without regulation, either with health or with economic efficiency. Also, the US relies a lot on a free market for insurance, but it has been shown multiple times that in markets with adverse selection problems, monopoly is often better than competition for various reasons.

In Canada, overheads costs are significantly lower. Also, each hospital can establish their own budget and negotiate doctors’ fees. Obviously, the model is far from perfect (WHO ranked it 30th compared to USA 37th), but if everybody in the Top Ten uses a variant of the universal health care system, why has the US been so reluctant to implement it in the last 70 years? Economical, ideological and political reasons I believe.

[metsguy234]

Depending on your political leanings, I think you can lump Moore, Coutler, Limbaugh, Savage, O'reilly, Olberman, ect. into the group of "yeah I agree with them somewhat, but **** are they assholes."

I agree with Moore and Olbermann a lot, but I don't think they are assholes.

[free2131]

I liked Olberman on SportsCenter with Dan Patrick. Probably the best combo they had.

He just comes off as too much of an conceited ass to me. I don't agree with Moore's editing tricks and... "interesting" intrepretations of fact, but like I said ealier, I don't recall him ever outright fabricating facts like Limbaugh and Coulter do.

Just personal preference I guess.

[dickay]

Depending on your political leanings, I think you can lump Moore, Coutler, Limbaugh, Savage, O'reilly, Olberman, ect. into the group of "yeah I agree with them somewhat, but **** are they assholes."

I don't feel O'Reilly belongs in this group. While I wholeheartedly agree he's an a$$hole....and he does lean right he is far more of a centrist than any of these above. FAR more.

[HoustonGM]

I don't feel O'Reilly belongs in this group. While I wholeheartedly agree he's an a$$hole....and he does lean right he is far more of a centrist than any of these above. FAR more.
Are we watching the same O'Reilly?

[dickay]

Are we watching the same O'Reilly?

apparently not...although I have no doubt you've likely watched him once and made your opinion based upon that viewing and from others comments. He is far from an extremist of the likes mentioned in the post. you yourself have admitted to not watching it in the past, and really any of fox news. i guess your opinions were made of him long before you ceased watching. :rolleyes:

[HoustonGM]

apparently not...although I have no doubt you've likely watched him once and made your opinion based upon that viewing and from others comments. He is far from an extremist of the likes mentioned in the post. you yourself have admitted to not watching it in the past, and really any of fox news. i guess your opinions were made of him long before you ceased watching. :rolleyes:
Um, well, I've watched O'Reilly quite a bit. I'd like to see where I ever said I didn't watch O'Reilly ever. My opinions were, in fact, made long before I ceased watching him. Eventually, I got so fed up with his nonsense that I ceased watching him.

He may not be as far right as Moore is left or Coulter or Limbaugh is, but I'd put him on the same level as Olbermann.

[Jeffy25]

I agree with Moore and Olbermann a lot, but I don't think they are assholes.

Moore is def an *******. and O'Rielly would get a better response if he wouldn't go on such tirades where he gets all preachy. His views aren't very radical from what even many liberals think....he just gets too preachy sometimes.

Moore=Rush Limbaugh


they are the same thing, if you don't see that, then you are letting political agendas skew what you interpret to the be the truth.

i agree, i haven't seen Moore outright lie about anything, but his editing and choosing what things he want wants to debate while ignoring reasoning from the other side is what makes him an *******. Limbaugh is just too extreme and moronic to be allowed to even have a show, much less be believed.

anyone who gets their information from these assholes, are likely, in the same, also assholes.

sorry dice, but i do agree that O'Rielly belongs in this same group....But he could very easily fix that.....if he wanted to.




and sipmi:

I have a serious problem when you said this:


monopoly is often better than competition for various reasons.

thanks for joining in the discussion though! love having fellow debaters on all topics.

[dickay]

Um, well, I've watched O'Reilly quite a bit. I'd like to see where I ever said I didn't watch O'Reilly ever. My opinions were, in fact, made long before I ceased watching him. Eventually, I got so fed up with his nonsense that I ceased watching him.

He may not be as far right as Moore is left or Coulter or Limbaugh is, but I'd put him on the same level as Olbermann.

:eek::eek::eek: You can't get anymore left than Olbermann IMO. He's right there with Moore.

[dickay]

Moore is def an *******. and O'Rielly would get a better response if he wouldn't go on such tirades where he gets all preachy. His views aren't very radical from what even many liberals think....he just gets too preachy sometimes.

Moore=Rush Limbaugh


they are the same thing, if you don't see that, then you are letting political agendas skew what you interpret to the be the truth.

i agree, i haven't seen Moore outright lie about anything, but his editing and choosing what things he want wants to debate while ignoring reasoning from the other side is what makes him an *******. Limbaugh is just too extreme and moronic to be allowed to even have a show, much less be believed.

anyone who gets their information from these assholes, are likely, in the same, also assholes.

sorry dice, but i do agree that O'Rielly belongs in this same group....But he could very easily fix that.....if he wanted to.




and sipmi:

I have a serious problem when you said this:



thanks for joining in the discussion though! love having fellow debaters on all topics.

wait?? you agree OReilly has many liberal views but he gets too preachy at times. Thats exactly what I was saying...he's more of a centrist with right leanings (yes sometimes radical but rare) whereas all the others on that list are extremists. Some missing from that list are Rachael Maddow, and Sean Hannity.

[HoustonGM]

:eek::eek::eek: You can't get anymore left than Olbermann IMO. He's right there with Moore.
I don't think he's "right there with Moore." Nor do I think that O'Reilly is close to being centrist.

[metsguy234]

Everyone who works for MSNBC or FOX News is either far left or far right. Doesn't make them assholes.

[Jeffy25]

personal belief on O'Rielly is if he calmed down more liberals would actually like him....but instead he owns shock value and many conservatives like his in your face attitude. he really isn't all that radical....but I also don't think Olbermann is as bad as Moore either...

reality is, this little debate on who is more one way or the other is kind of pointless, it's all based on our preceptions, and obviously they will be skewed based on our own political agendas.

[dickay]

Everyone who works for MSNBC or FOX News is either far left or far right. Doesn't make them assholes.

nobody said that everyone who works for those agencies are a$$holes. There were only a select few pointed out. ;)

[Jeffy25]

Everyone who works for MSNBC or FOX News is either far left or far right. Doesn't make them assholes.

and no one grouped them as such, i personally was saying that Moore and Limbaugh are assholes....i wasn't categorizing entire networks.

[dickay]

personal belief on O'Rielly is if he calmed down more liberals would actually like him....but instead he owns shock value and many conservatives like his in your face attitude. he really isn't all that radical....but I also don't think Olbermann is as bad as Moore either...

reality is, this little debate on who is more one way or the other is kind of pointless, it's all based on our preceptions, and obviously they will be skewed based on our own political agendas.

good points...except for I don't agree that your perception of these guys is necessarily based upon political agenda. Many republicans think Rush is a jacka$$...just as liberals do. :D

[Jeffy25]

this is true.

[metsguy234]

I still don't think Moore is an a-hole.

[Jeffy25]

and you still don't think you are spoiled....we all tend to disagree on different things based upon our perceptions of the matter.


for example:

If i ask for your advice on a matter.....let's use a girl as the example.

Let's say I like a girl named Karen....but she is bad for me. and you as a good friend see this. but i am so attracted to her that i will overlook her bad qualities.

you as a friend will counsel me being an objective person giving me advice.

two things can happen

1.) i can either listen to you and understand that you are looking out for my best interest
2.) sleep with Karen and allow nature to take it's course.

either way, i will like what you are saying if you are agreeing with my personal agenda....in other words, i have already likely decided if i was going to pursue karen or not....regardless of what you say...and if you agree with my set agenda then i think your advice is great. if you don't agree with my agenda, then i think your advice sucks.


it's all about perception. metsguy you like Moore because he agrees with your personal agenda.....just like so many people on here hate Fox news, when others like it. you don't see the other side because you don't fully agree with their points of view.

to break it down even further.

I don't see how socializing healthcare is an inteligent option and feel anyone that doesn't agree with me isn't looking at the big picture or is just an idiot.

the other side (free, HGM, fili) see this whole argument differently then i do, and likely think that I don't look this through, or haven't had a great deal of education on the matter, or maybe they just think i am an idiot. whatever the case may be, we can preach at each other all day....it doesn't mean either side is right or wrong....we just disagree.



but to summarize.

Michael Moore is a total ******* who cares only about himself and his personal agenda of making money.

some people do not see this at all. it is what i see, because i notice all the hypocrsy whenever he does a documentary. others take it as truth.

my mother loves Rush Limbaugh, more for entertainment value though. but many would probably consider my mother a ***** for entrusting so much in a phsycotic politcal activist....

in reality you would learn that my mother is by no means an idiot. but the perceptions lie within.

My votes:
1. Obama will do whatever he THINKS is best for our country
2. I disagree with the agenda that Mr. Obama has set forth to "fixing" our country.
3. Our healthcare system is greatly flawed (the only thing i don't agree with cbdl on is when he said it was the best in the world). I believe something needs to be done, i am not even close to convinced that socializing and allowing our useless gov't control over the program will fix it. i am glad we are thinking, but the idea is fundamentally flawed.
4. We found out that Karen was actually a man, and that you should always listen to your bros.

[free2131]

Michael Moore is a total ******* who cares only about himself and his personal agenda of making money.


I don't know that I agree with this. I think Moore really does care about the issues he brings up in his films and books, but I think he cares a lot about furthering his agenda than having actual debate and learning about those issues. Either he's right or you're wrong, there's no room for compromise, and that I don't agree with.

The Michael Moore of Roger and Me and The Awful Truth compared to the Michael Moore of F-911 and Bowling for Columbine are two different people, IMO.

[Jeffy25]

I don't know that I agree with this. I think Moore really does care about the issues he brings up in his films and books, but I think he cares a lot about furthering his agenda than having actual debate and learning about those issues. Either he's right or you're wrong, there's no room for compromise, and that I don't agree with.

The Michael Moore of Roger and Me and The Awful Truth compared to the Michael Moore of F-911 and Bowling for Columbine are two different people, IMO.

sorry, you said it better then i did. i agree with you.

[Arctic Blast]

My issue with O'Reilly is that he seems to have convinced himself that he's the 'tough news guy', and as 'tough news guy' who won't ever back down from anyone. And he takes it to just absolutely ridiculous extremes. You aren't tough, Bill...in fact, it's been my experience that those who start yelling first are usually those who also turn tail and run first.

[Sipimi]

and sipmi:

I have a serious problem when you said this:

monopoly is often better than competition for various reasons

You probably have a problem with it because you didn’t pay attention to the most important part of the remark (which you didn’t quote):

it has been shown multiple times that in markets with adverse selection problems, monopoly is often better than competition for various reasons.

I’m not saying that monopoly is often better than competition like you quoted me saying (because it’s not true), I’m talking about markets with adverse selection problems like we often see with the insurance market.

Have a look at the interesting research attached.