Honest opinion of Michael Moore...

[Deke]

What is your honest opinion of filmmaker Michael Moore? Add any comments if you like after voting.

[Deke]

Only 3 votes? I figured this would get some responses. :) Someone out there actually likes the man.

[kingmob]

i think he's a fat toad whose message that the demorats are gonna save us is just pure garbage.....i do think that he at least brought the average no nothing person up to the brink of truth.....a lot of people have woken up from moore's film after they went and really researched 911 and what really happened....
his solution is total is total ********e

[Deke]

Problem is, hes duping them into voting for Kerry when he supposedly 'brings them up to speed'.

[williethebasset]

I think he is just like Rush Limbaugh, but on the left.

[Deke]

Im not a fan of Rush either. Hes too 'out there' for me. But to me, Moore is WAY WAY WAY out on the far far far left fringe.

[kingmob]

Originally posted by williethebasset
I think he is just like Rush Limbaugh, but on the left.

exactly he's a stooge for the false left-right paradigm

[Hash1]

i dont like michael moore at all

[williethebasset]

Originally posted by kingmob
exactly he's a stooge for the false left-right paradigm

http://www.politicalcompass.org/

Take it. It is a false pardigm because the far left covers anarchy and communism, two very different ideals.

[kingmob]

Originally posted by williethebasset
http://www.politicalcompass.org/

Take it. It is a false pardigm because the far left covers anarchy and communism, two very different ideals.

exactly right ....the whole system is a false paradigm for godsake

[Deke]

Originally posted by williethebasset
http://www.politicalcompass.org/

Take it. It is a false pardigm because the far left covers anarchy and communism, two very different ideals.

**** no. Dont take that ****. Ive seen that test, its way too liberal slanted. The questions trap you into either voting liberal or or looking evil (which they frame Republican views up to be). I spent like 2 hours the other day looking for an unbiased political test, to no avail. EVERY test I came across was slanted either left or right. I did find one that had great questions, but the format was weird as ****.

[Deke]

Originally posted by kingmob
exactly right ....the whole system is a false paradigm for godsake

Oh you mean it covers where Michael Moore hovers? ;) Seriously, the Dems really blew it. They gave Moore the seat of honor right next to President Carter at the DNC. Thats like the Republicans giving their seat of honor to a fascist. Goes to show where the Dems want to take this country. Gone are the Truman, Roosevelt Democrats. Its now COOL to be far far left in the Democratic party.

[williethebasset]

Originally posted by Deke
**** no. Dont take that ****. Ive seen that test, its way too liberal slanted. The questions trap you into either voting liberal or or looking evil (which they frame Republican views up to be). I spent like 2 hours the other day looking for an unbiased political test, to no avail. EVERY test I came across was slanted either left or right. I did find one that had great questions, but the format was weird as ****.

I came out in the bottom left... I measures four directions, not two.

[williethebasset]

Originally posted by kingmob
exactly right ....the whole system is a false paradigm for godsake

Why wont you take it?

[kingmob]

Originally posted by williethebasset
Why wont you take it?

because its ********....the true paradigm is collectivist or individualist......me i classify myself as an individualist..

[Deke]

I still say you belong to the Constitutionalist party. :) Most of your views seem to fit their platform.

[kingmob]

Originally posted by Deke
I still say you belong to the Constitutionalist party. :) Most of your views seem to fit their platform.

thats a fair assesment...i am an individual constitutionalist that despises all forms of collectivist group think.......guess im a domestic terrorist because fema says that anyone that brings up the constitution might be a terrorist.......your a terrorist too deke because you quote your a christian......the nwo along with there stated goals of one world govt. are also pushing a one world religion(luciferianism)...they hate christians, jews and muslim with equal gusto....welcome to the new ameriKa

[Deke]

Originally posted by kingmob
thats a fair assesment...i am an individual constitutionalist that despises all forms of collectivist group think.......guess im a domestic terrorist because fema says that anyone that brings up the constitution might be a terrorist.......your a terrorist too deke because you quote your a christian......the nwo along with there stated goals of one world govt. are also pushing a one world religion(luciferianism)...they hate christians, jews and muslim with equal gusto....welcome to the new ameriKa

Haha, you never bore me. Your stuff gets more and more interesting as we go on. Who specifically makes up this NWO? All Republican and Democrat officials or just the top leaders?

[kingmob]

Originally posted by Deke
Haha, you never bore me. Your stuff gets more and more interesting as we go on. Who specifically makes up this NWO? All Republican and Democrat officials or just the top leaders?

the bilderberg group is pretty close to the top of the pyramid....global senate basicaly that was started by a nazi....
www.bilderberg.org this is a great site on the bilderberg

the republicrats are basically just puppets of there globalist handlers....thats why it doesnt really matter who the pres. is....look for another post on one these threads with a link called red pill......that article was written by a high school kid and he's dead on......he has a cool flash intro too.....

the nwo in a nutshell is organizations including.....riaa( royal institute for international affairs) in england .....cfr(council on foreign relations)....and other round table groups around the world.....these people are basically a global crime syndicate that worship demons.....

i dont wanna overwhelm you with info. so ask specific questions ya have and i'll answer those

[kingmob]

repost from another thread
all right fellas heres the RED PILL.....wow im impressed this came from an underground high school paper....thats awesome
......watch the intro flash...then read this

Red Pill (http://www.beverlyunderground.com/rabbithole.htm)

heres a flash video about the pentagon airstrike
What plane? (http://www.freedomunderground.org/memoryhole/pentagon121.swf)

[williethebasset]

No, you can be both collectivist and individualist.

[kingmob]

Originally posted by williethebasset
No, you can be both collectivist and individualist.

no you cant

[williethebasset]

Originally posted by kingmob
repost from another thread
all right fellas heres the RED PILL.....wow im impressed this came from an underground high school paper....thats awesome
......watch the intro flash...then read this

Red Pill (http://www.beverlyunderground.com/rabbithole.htm)

heres a flash video about the pentagon airstrike
What plane? (http://www.freedomunderground.org/memoryhole/pentagon121.swf)

Good flash video. Things are coming together.

[williethebasset]

Originally posted by kingmob
no you cant

A TvNewsLIES Reader contribution.
By John Gray Cincinnati, Ohio - July - 2004


Joe gets up at 6:00am to prepare his morning coffee. He fills his pot full of good clean drinking water because some liberal fought for minimum water quality standards. He takes his daily medication with his first swallow of coffee. His medications are safe to take because some liberal fought to insure their safety and work as advertised. All but $10.00 of his medications are paid for by his employer's medical plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance, now Joe gets it too. He prepares his morning breakfast, bacon and eggs this day. Joe's bacon is safe to eat because some liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry.

Joe takes his morning shower reaching for his shampoo. His bottle is properly labeled with every ingredient and the amount of its contents because some liberal fought for his right to know what he was putting on his body and how much it contained. Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a
deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some tree hugging liberal fought for laws to stop industries from polluting our air.

He walks to the subway station for his government-subsidized ride to work; it saves him
considerable money in parking and transportation fees. You see, some liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor.


Joe begins his work day; he has a good job with excellent pay, medical benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some liberal union members fought and died for these working standards. Joe's employer pays these standards because Joe's employer doesn't want his employees to call the union. If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed he'll get a
worker compensation or unemployment check because some liberal didn't think he should lose his home because of his temporary misfortune.

It's noon time, Joe needs to make a Bank Deposit so he can pay some bills. Joe's
deposit is federally insured by the FSLIC because some liberal wanted to protect
Joe's money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before
the Depression.

Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae underwritten Mortgage and his below market federal student loan because some stupid liberal decided that Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his life-time.

Joe is home from work, he plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive to dad's; his car is among the safest in the world because some liberal fought for car safety standards. He arrives at his boyhood home. He was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmers Home Administration because bankers didn't want to make rural loans. The house didn't have electric until some big government liberal stuck his nose where it didn't belong and demanded rural electrification. (Those rural Republicans would still be sitting in the dark).

He is happy to see his dad, who is now retired. His dad lives on Social Security and his union pension because some liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe wouldn't have to. After his visit with dad he gets back in his car for the ride home.

He turns on a radio talk show, the host keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives are good. (He doesn't tell Joe that his beloved Republicans have fought against every protection and benefit Joe enjoys throughout his day) Joe agrees, "We don't need those big government
liberals ruining our lives; after all, I'm a self made man who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have."

[kingmob]

Originally posted by williethebasset
Good flash video. Things are coming together.

yeah it makes a good case for the pentagon being hit with a cruise missile....which it did

[williethebasset]

Well, Jets flying low certainly do sound like cruise missiles. I live under the midwest landing pattern that comes into logan. They are at about 8,000 feet and I can still hear them.

[kingmob]

Originally posted by williethebasset
Well, Jets flying low certainly do sound like cruise missiles. I live under the midwest landing pattern that comes into logan. They are at about 8,000 feet and I can still hear them.

the pentagon lawn was untouched.....a huge 757 would of tore up the lawn

[williethebasset]

Originally posted by kingmob
the pentagon lawn was untouched.....a huge 757 would of tore up the lawn

agreed

[goyanks225]

Originally posted by williethebasset
I think he is just like Rush Limbaugh, but on the left.

Michael Moore at least presents some true facts. What does Limbaugh bring up? BULLS*** TO TRY TO SCARE PEOPLE INTO VOTING, SAME THING AS (MOST) OTHER REPUBLICANS DO!!!

[kingmob]

this is an interesting article from dr. makow
lord rothschild at war with putin and bush/cheney (http://www.savethemales.ca/)

[williethebasset]

What a conincidence, the Mayans predicted the end of the world in 2012.
December 21st to be exact.


http://survive2012.com/why_2012.php

[michaelg123789]

You don't say?

[robinhoodnik]

Impressive, no?

[nuzzy62]

cant stand the guy.

[themcnoisy]

His film docs are quite interesting, and Im glad to have watched them and make my own mind up.

Its not Michale Moore thats the problem, its the actual lies of the politicians which add their own fuel to the fire. Without the lies and deciet which goes on Michael Moore couldnt really make a documentary.

That said he does make a lot of the tiny little things which really dont hold much strength in an arguement. Some of his acusations are quite ludicrous at times, which is probably why I dont view his docs with as respect as other film makers.

It does throw up some extra info - but seperating that from the bull is difficult, if he cut out his own ballowny Im sure not so many people would view his films with disdain.

[Geoffy]

Michael Moore makes some good points, but he loses all his credibility as soon as you dig only slightly deeper. I'm not only taking about intentionally portraying vague anecdotal evidence as fact.

[robinhoodnik]

He's an opportunistic scumbag making millions off of other peoples misery. I've seen his interviews on several networks and I believe that he's a sociopath (http://www.hss.caltech.edu/~mcafee/Bin/sb.html).

[themcnoisy]

Is he bringing out any more documentarys?????

[robinhoodnik]

Is he bringing out any more documentarys?????

Hopefully, the next one is a documentary on the lonely suicide of an obese filmmaker. :mad:

[Geoffy]

Hopefully, the next one is a documentary on the lonely suicide of an obese filmmaker. :mad:

It would have been interesting of Michael Moore did Super Size Me.

[themcnoisy]

It would have been interesting of Michael Moore did Super Size Me.

I remember one of his docs raising the point of president Bush being a reformed alcoholic, which in my opinion isnt a bad thing as he is REFORMED. Mr Moore on the other hand does clearly have a Weight issue and may have a current addiction to Grub.

Im being to see what you all mean.

[Geoffy]

I remember one of his docs raising the point of president Bush being a reformed alcoholic, which in my opinion isnt a bad thing as he is REFORMED. Mr Moore on the other hand does clearly have a Weight issue and may have a current addiction to Grub.

Im being to see what you all mean.

Socialized health care does work, but some of the Canadian footage he used in Sicko was merely circumstantial and not indicative of the situation. If you shoot some random footage of anything, you can pretty much spin it in whatever way you wish.

[shepster]

Hopefully, the next one is a documentary on the lonely suicide of an obese filmmaker. :mad:

Only trouble with that usually the good guys die early Moore will likly live on like other scum.

[robinhoodnik]

Socialized health care does work, but some of the Canadian footage he used in Sicko was merely circumstantial and not indicative of the situation. If you shoot some random footage of anything, you can pretty much spin it in whatever way you wish.

Massachusetts has made it compulsory to carry medical insurance (just like auto). July was the mandatory date, now it's November. They couldn't figure out how to implement it. Great plan; make it illegal for people who (mostly) can't afford the outrageous premiums, not to have insurance. Thank you Mitt Romney for handing the insurance companies yet another gift on your way out the door of the governor's mansion. A big one finger salute coming your way at primary time. :mad:

[themcnoisy]

Massachusetts has made it compulsory to carry medical insurance (just like auto). July was the mandatory date, now it's November. They couldn't figure out how to implement it. Great plan; make it illegal for people who (mostly) can't afford the outrageous premiums, not to have insurance. Thank you Mitt Romney for handing the insurance companies yet another gift on your way out the door of the governor's mansion. A big one finger salute coming your way at primary time. :mad:

Well we have the NHS, and that costs a bomb.

We never get the choice if we want to pay the taxes or not:mad:

[robinhoodnik]

Well we have the NHS, and that costs a bomb.

We never get the choice if we want to pay the taxes or not:mad:

NHS government run?
We have to pay to private companies. They paid to put our politicians in office via campaign contributions, they make us pay the contributions back one hundred fold.:mad: I guess that all we can hope for is a meteor strike in Boston while most of them are there. Then, no one owes anyone (hopefully), and we can start fresh.

[Geoffy]

Michael Moore was on CNN today and he got into a fight with Wolf Blitzer. Fun stuff, to say the least.

[themcnoisy]

Michael Moore was on CNN today and he got into a fight with Wolf Blitzer. Fun stuff, to say the least.

A real fist fight???

[robinhoodnik]

Michael Moore was on CNN today and he got into a fight with Wolf Blitzer. Fun stuff, to say the least.

Now that I would pay to see. I can't stand either of them. :D

[Geoffy]

A real fist fight???

Sadly just a heated battle of words, although Wolf barely fought back. It was also via video conferencing.

It was half as good as when Jon Stewart went on CNN in 2004 and made fun of CNN.

[FRENCHREDSOX]

Moore gets a load of "good international" news coverage - basically cos he (not the Democrats) seems to stand up to Bush & his "erroneous" actions.

I don't believe ALL he says/writes but it is an "interesting" alternate perspective/argumentation, which has been lacking since Bush Jr has been in power (& since 9/11)

[mmgood]

this pole gives moore way too much credit, one of the options to vote on should say "the man is a total idiot and a conspiracy theorist who has an agenda against democracy and wishes for government to control everything in all of our lives"

[themcnoisy]

this pole gives moore way too much credit, one of the options to vote on should say "the man is a total idiot and a conspiracy theorist who has an agenda against democracy and wishes for government to control everything in all of our lives"

But wasnt his arguement the other way around??

He stated for less state control and extra freedoms in particular areas.
But more control on areas such as Guns, Goverment propaganda and Information.

[robinhoodnik]

I've also seen him (Moore) disgust a liberal newsman by stating that he's all for the government taking as much as 80% of our income from us.

[robinhoodnik]

this pole gives moore way too much credit, one of the options to vote on should say "the man is a total idiot and a conspiracy theorist who has an agenda against democracy and wishes for government to control everything in all of our lives"

Let's restructure this statement a little shall we? We'll take the pertinent words and make a true statement out of them.

Moore is a pole

:)

[themcnoisy]

I've also seen him (Moore) disgust a liberal newsman by stating that he's all for the government taking as much as 80% of our income from us.

80% Now that is a way to get rid of immigrants (see immigration thread) ;)

[robinhoodnik]

80% Now that is a way to get rid of immigrants (see immigration thread) ;)

The legal ones yes, but we want to keep the legal ones.

[Geoffy]

I've also seen him (Moore) disgust a liberal newsman by stating that he's all for the government taking as much as 80% of our income from us.

Do you have more information on when, where, or with whom this interview took place. I'd like to see a clip of this

[robinhoodnik]

No, unfortunately. I just spent about an hour looking for any reference to it and came up empty. Moore's said a LOT of crazy things. I want to think it was with Charlie Rose but I'm not certain at all.

[themcnoisy]

Im not sure of the name of a Michael Moore Documentary, but it was about the shootings at an American school.


I am just wondering what your opinions are on Guns in America, as you probably know the only guns over here are potato guns.

[robinhoodnik]

Im not sure of the name of a Michael Moore Documentary, but it was about the shootings at an American school.


I am just wondering what your opinions are on Guns in America, as you probably know the only guns over here are potato guns.

I think that we should have them, and be allowed to use them to protect ourselves. As the old saying goes, an armed society is a polite society. If people were still armed in America, you would probably have less damage from these mass murderers. Someone would end it quickly. That's the way it used to be. See Joe Blow robbing the First National Bank, see Joe Blow laying in the street bleeding courtesy of your average armed citizen.

[lkcostas]

It does throw up some extra info - but seperating that from the bull is difficult, if he cut out his own ballowny Im sure not so many people would view his films with disdain.

After seeing Sicko I decided to look up some stuff on healthcare in other nations. OK, we know what's wrong with ours, and he shows success stories of theirs, but are there things about their systems that aren't good? I suspected there were.

I went to the Manchester Guardian's website and read a random assortment of articles on the NHS (Britain's system). Not everything is peachy-keen - big surprise, right?

There was a story of some big-wig being fired for refusing to falsify records. His boss' wanted him to say that no surgeries had been cancelled during this certain time period because of lack of staffing, when in actuality forty surgeries had been cancelled.

Another article talked about how in East Anglia they were putting a hold on hip replacement surgers for fat people. Reason being the "increased risk of complications from the surgery for those who were overweight". The article suggested the real reason was they were cost-cutting because of how over-budget they were.

Then there were articles about waiting lists. This is a big thing there. They actually track how many people are on wait lists for a year (or more) for "elective" surgeries. Elective including things like hip replacements. Can you imagine waiting a year for that? When my grandma broke her hip, she didn't have to wait a year, she got worked on in a couple of days.

Sounded to me like our system is better if you have insurance. Of course, we know how screwed you can be if you don't. So, which is better? Knowing you're covered even if you lose your job, but possibly facing waiting lines - or getting worked on in a more timely fashion if you're insured???

[themcnoisy]

The NHS was and still is a bit of a mess, and your right not everything is hunky dorry.

I personally have never had anything wrong with me (touch wood), but cant begrudge the money being spent on the hospitals and stuff as people in general have lots wrong with them.

I dont think I could sit back and watch an accident victim being left to die, just because he cant afford the health care....

You just cant put a price on life.

[ohms_law]

I dont think I could sit back and watch an accident victim being left to die, just because he cant afford the health care....
That doesn't happen though, at least not purposely. As a matter of fact, it's actually against the law (let alone medical ethics) everywhere that I've been. Hospital emergency rooms, even privately owned ones, are required to provide emergency care first and then worry about billing later.

The problems generally come from the uninsured visiting emergency rooms for non-emergency care. In that respect, going completely "socialized medicine" would lead to "emergency care" generally being the norm for everyone.

Point being, there are problems with the current system in the US, but government sponsored "free" medical care isn't the solution to those problems. That's "throwing the baby out with the bath water", really.

[themcnoisy]

How much is general health insurance for a healthy, strong, non-smoking 26 yr old man?????

I could probably give a better/worse arguement if I had some figures.

[ohms_law]

The "cost" is having a full time job, basically.
There are individual health care policies available as well. I've seen advertisements for coverage starting at like $80/month. Just about all coverage anymore, you're required to pay a co-pay as well though, usually something around $25 per visit. That's for non-emergency care sort of stuff, though.

Seriously, the system here isn't "broken". Health insurance should be more available to the lower income brackets, but it's not as though it's completely unattainable... well, sort of. It can be tough to budget for, and it's not the sort of thing that most people think about until they need it.
The only real problem is health care costs, which have been doing nothing but rising for years and years. Of course, rising health care costs are being driven by increasingly sophisticated (and increasingly effective) treatment, so... Really, I think that the answer lies in research subsidies. As much as I hate to promote any government programs, a program to subsidize research and "trickle down" the savings through the system would be much less intrusive then a whole government run health care system.

[themcnoisy]

I dont want the NHS any more, for only £40 per month I can get insurance!!!!!!

There was an article in the regional rag a few weeks ago stating the average Tom, Dick and Harry pays £2400 each to keep the NHS going.

If I can get the same for lets say £500, you would be stupid to turn it down.

[lkcostas]

I dont want the NHS any more, for only £40 per month I can get insurance!!!!!!


That's pretty cheap. When I got laid off from my full-time job at the beginning of 2005 (I do computer work), I contracted for a year & a half and my payments to Kaiser (a west coast HMO) were $270 a month - just for one person.



There was an article in the regional rag a few weeks ago stating the average Tom, Dick and Harry pays £2400 each to keep the NHS going.


If that's £2400 for each an every person in England, than that could be more expensive than here. More expensive than Kaiser anyway. Then again, Kaiser owns the hospitals, the pharmacies, directly employs the doctors - that must reduce their costs. They've been a pretty good deal for me. I had a one-day outpatient procedure once, and my entire out-of-pocket cost was $20. My new job doesn't offer them, unfortunately. :(

[ohms_law]

That's pretty cheap. When I got laid off from my full-time job at the beginning of 2005 (I do computer work), I contracted for a year & a half and my payments to Kaiser (a west coast HMO) were $270 a month - just for one person.
Really? I'm doing that right now and their charging me $80/month...

[lkcostas]

Really? I'm doing that right now and their charging me $80/month...

Dunno. I know I had them in Northern California and when I left my full-time job and went contracting I was paying $100 a month. Five years later, when this other full-time job in Southern California ended it was $270 a month. I'm told the cost was based upon how much one's employer was paying to have you insured when you were working for them. Which means one place I was costing them $100 a month, and another $270 a month? It doesn't make sense to me either.

[ohms_law]

Maybe part of it is California as well (I'm in Oregon)... who knows.
My copay is $25 though, and it sounds like yours was $20. Maybe it was just a different plan or something.

[Clay Dreslough]

Really? I'm doing that right now and their charging me $80/month...I think you're getting a good rate because you aren't in the super-expensive Southern CA area and/or you don't have all the coverage the Kaiser plan offers.

My experience is between those 2 numbers, but closer to the high end. As a healthy non-smoking 36-year-old male, I pay $225/month. For the healthy non-smoking 25-year-old that does our artwork (Chris), we pay $210/month. This includes a $20 co-pay for doctor's visits, and something like $75 for the rare emergency room visit. Drug co-pays range from $10 to $30 depending on the drug.

It's the women and children that get expensive. A healthy 26-year-old non-smoking woman will pay about $600/month, because they factor in the costs and risks of pregnancy and childbirth. This is true even if the woman doesn't plan to have children and/or is using birth control or is sterilized!

So it's a lot tougher to insure a family than a single male worker...

Clay

[ohms_law]

Yea, that must be it. I didn't mention it above, but my wife's coverage is more expensive...

[robinhoodnik]

In Massachusetts, for decent coverage, it's over $400 bucks a month.

[wood34]

Hes a master mudslinging radical extremist. A true con-artist that can make people believe what he wants them to believe despite knowing deep down that hes shelling out lies. A true slime of society, and should not be taken seriously in any.

[themcnoisy]

Oh my god $400 a month, for medical insurance!!!!

Bollucks to that.....



Ill stick with the NHS, I now think Im getting a good deal. (Im also glad Im not a Woman)

[OldFatGuy]

Oh my god $400 a month, for medical insurance!!!!

Bollucks to that.....



Ill stick with the NHS, I now think Im getting a good deal. (Im also glad Im not a Woman)

You are getting a good deal. The same deal Americans should be getting but never will as long as the fear machines can still convince a good many that change will only make it worse. And as far as $400 a month for health insurance???? Try being in your 40's or 50's and getting that. Maybe only for catastrophic major medical, but you're not going to get comprehensive including drug coverage for that in most states once you're over the age of 45 or so. My youngest sister pays $1,300 a month, admittedly that's family coverage, she has three kids, but she just turned 40 herself. And she still gets hit with huge copays and deductables. Its just outrageous to have human suffering being a profit maker. Morally disgusting.

[TheNamelessPoet]

For those if you tht say farenhyte 9-11 watch farenhype 9-11 also... get both views before u judge

[RickD]

Hes a master mudslinging radical extremist. A true con-artist that can make people believe what he wants them to believe despite knowing deep down that hes shelling out lies. A true slime of society, and should not be taken seriously in any.

[metsguy234]

For those if you tht say farenhyte 9-11 watch farenhype 9-11 also... get both views before u judge

Use a spell checker, man.... :D

And Michael Moore is my hero

[TheNamelessPoet]

Use a spell checker, man.... :D

And Michael Moore is my hero

lol im at work and I dont have one on IE :p

and when u are an adult you will see he is an idiot and to get the TRUE store on anything you must see both sides.

[TheNamelessPoet]

hes a master mudslinging radical extremist. A true con-artist that can make people believe what he wants them to believe despite knowing deep down that hes shelling out lies. A true slime of society, and should not be taken seriously in any.

bingo

[Alloutwar]

and when u are an adult you will see he is an idiot

Being an adult does not correspond with viewing one extremist or another as an idiot.

Michael Moore may be biased in his views, and not present all the facts, but completely disregarding everything he says and labelling him as whatever isn't necessarily bright. Even Rush Limbaugh could, potentially, be right once in a while. Again, from an economics/activist perspective, you can't disregard his past contributions. Learn from both sides, and get the truth, somewhere in the middle (as you stated).

[HoustonGM]

Year old thread....

Really?

And on topic...none of the poll options fit what I think.

[TheNamelessPoet]

Being an adult does not correspond with viewing one extremist or another as an idiot.

Michael Moore may be biased in his views, and not present all the facts, but completely disregarding everything he says and labelling him as whatever isn't necessarily bright. Even Rush Limbaugh could, potentially, be right once in a while. Again, from an economics/activist perspective, you can't disregard his past contributions. Learn from both sides, and get the truth, somewhere in the middle (as you stated).

good point. I think he is a ***** and egocentrical and cares about NOTHING but making $$$ BUT I do agree being old makes u smart :p you ABSOLUTLY have to see both sides... its jsu that he became so mainstreem that EVERYONE thought every word out of his mouth was the truth and it annoys me...

I dont wish bad thinngs on people very often but him... enought said:mad:

[Arctic Blast]

good point. I think he is a ***** and egocentrical and cares about NOTHING but making $$$ BUT I do agree being old makes u smart :p you ABSOLUTLY have to see both sides... its jsu that he became so mainstreem that EVERYONE thought every word out of his mouth was the truth and it annoys me...

I dont wish bad thinngs on people very often but him... enought said:mad:

It's obvious what needs to happen. We need a cage match to the death, with the money going to the charity of your choice...

Michael Moore and Al Franken vs. Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh (I realize it may be a bit unfair, seeing as Ann looks like she weighs all of 91 pounds and MIGHT have the strength to lift a magazine, but I couldn't come up with a far left version of her).

[RickD]

Actually ANn's voice could be quite effective in disabling the other team.....I'd pay good money, ok someone else's good money, to watch this!

[Arctic Blast]

Actually ANn's voice could be quite effective in disabling the other team.....I'd pay good money, ok someone else's good money, to watch this!

I'd freely pay my own money to enjoy it. I'll admit it...feed em all to the lions! :D

[metsguy234]

Y'know, Moore gets a bad rap. He's a very good guy who's revealing government corruption to the people. I commend him for his heroic work to help this country.

[Arctic Blast]

Y'know, Moore gets a bad rap. He's a very good guy who's revealing government corruption to the people. I commend him for his heroic work to help this country.

He's also ridiculously biased, constantly messes with facts in his movies (mixing up timelines by YEARS, omitting the half of an argument that goes against his main claim, and occasionally just making crap up), and a complete and total hypocrite.

I will freely admit I used to be a big fan. Then I started doing a little research in to some of his claims. Then I noticed that the majority of the anti-Moore sites AREN'T filled with slavering conservative attack dogs, but start with the line "I used to me Michael's biggest fan, but...". It didn't take long to realize I'd been duped...and I don't like being duped, hence my utter disgust towards the man now.

[metsguy234]

He's also ridiculously biased, constantly messes with facts in his movies (mixing up timelines by YEARS, omitting the half of an argument that goes against his main claim, and occasionally just making crap up), and a complete and total hypocrite.

And he is one of my heroes. He taught me how Bush could've stopped 9/11and he shaped most of my anti-gun opinions (I watched like half of Bowling for Columbine and half of Farenheit 9/11)

[Arctic Blast]

And he is one of my heroes. He taught me how Bush could've stopped 9/11and he shaped most of my anti-gun opinions (I watched like half of Bowling for Columbine and half of Farenheit 9/11)

You can't simply blame Bush for 9/11, metsguy. You also have to blame the policies of Clinton, Bush Sr., Reagan AND Carter.

[metsguy234]

You can't simply blame Bush for 9/11, metsguy. You also have to blame the policies of Clinton, Bush Sr., Reagan AND Carter.

Well,I agree that Bush Sr. and Reagan screwed up alot (including Reagan's administration giving weapons to Mujaheddin members to fight the Soviets, with many of those Mujaheddin members- including a man named Osama Bin Laden- later becoming high-ranking officials in Al-Qaeda.)

You can't blame Clinton and Carter, they were both great presidents.

[HoustonGM]

You can't blame Clinton and Carter, they were both great presidents.
Clinton could've caught, or attempted to catch, Osama bin Laden. It's not like 9/11 was the first time we found out he was a leader of a terrorist organization that has attacked America multiple times.

[metsguy234]

Clinton could've caught, or attempted to catch, Osama bin Laden. It's not like 9/11 was the first time we found out he was a leader of a terrorist organization that has attacked America multiple times.

Um, Al Qaeda attacked us once..... I dunno what you're talking about:confused:

[HoustonGM]

Um, Al Qaeda attacked us once..... I dunno what you're talking about:confused:
Uh....WHAT?

You can't be serious...

[Arctic Blast]

Well,I agree that Bush Sr. and Reagan screwed up alot (including Reagan's administration giving weapons to Mujaheddin members to fight the Soviets, with many of those Mujaheddin members- including a man named Osama Bin Laden- later becoming high-ranking officials in Al-Qaeda.)

You can't blame Clinton and Carter, they were both great presidents.

Clinton didn't go after Al Qaeda with any sort of consistency. After each attack, he's let the CIA and FBI actually do their jobs, and they WOULD do a good job...then he'd leash them again, until the next attack. They grew brazen because those policies led them to believe they could continue to attack with impunity. The Clinton government did a fantastic job on a lot of domestic policies, ESPECIALLY the economy. Almost nobody would question that. Their foreign policy, though, was an out and out joke, INCLUDING, by the way, trying to buddy up with the Taliban to build an oil pipeline for Unocal across Afghanistan.

Oh, did you BELIEVE Moore when he claimed Bush invited the Taliban to Texas on behalf of Enron? Well, it's WRONG. Think about it...Bush was governor of Texas...a state governor has NO SAY on energy policy, but the feds do, and it was the feds who invited Taliban officials to the White House to discuss the pipeline.

I would very much recommend you do some reading of the books by a man named Robert Baer. He was a senior CIA official who quit after getting in to trouble for asking too many of the 'wrong' questions...he was also the guy the Clooney character in Syriana was based on.

Bush Sr. only gets a bit of blame, and that's for keeping troops in Saudi Arabia after Desert Storm was complete. The fact the Saudi government asked the West to fight Saddam for them in '90-'91, rather than accepting Bin Laden's invitation to have the Muj fighters band up again and fight the Iraqis. I very much doubt the White House even would have KNOWN any of this at the time, which is why it's a sliver of blame.

NOBODY would call Carter's presidency great. Even the staunchest of Democrats have described his run as a disaster. And his response, or complete lack thereof, to the Iran Hostage Crisis first planted the seed in the mkinds of a lot of overseas groups that Americans were vulnerable.

[metsguy234]

Uh....WHAT?

You can't be serious...

9/11. What was the other time they attacked the U.S.?

[HoustonGM]

9/11. What was the other time they attacked the U.S.?
Oh, I don't know...how about the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center? Bombing the U.S. embassies in Africa? Bombing the U.S.S. Cole?

[metsguy234]

And that's even if 9/11 was Al Qaeda. The government definetely could've planned it to get more support for the War on Terrorism, which was to get oil, which was to get money....

[ohms_law]

USS Cole (A month before I was supposed to report to her! Still not sure how I should feel about that...)

The US embassies in Nairobi, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania.

They were caught before successfully carrying out an attack in 2000 in Jordan.

and all of these:
* Paris embassy attack plot (2001)
* Singapore embassies attack plot (2001)
* Kidnapping and murder of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl (2002)
* Ghriba synagogue bombing in Djerba, Tunisia (2002)
* Foiled bombings of Western warships in the Strait of Gibraltar (2002)
* Limburg tanker bombing (2002)
* Kenyan hotel bombing in Mombasa and the attempt to shoot down an Israeli airliner (2002)
* Riyadh Compound Bombings (2003)
* 2003 Casablanca bombings
* 2003 Istanbul bombings

[metsguy234]

Oh, I don't know...how about the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center? Bombing the U.S. embassies in Africa? Bombing the U.S.S. Cole?

Maybe the government did all that to make the Middle East look bad. Make it look like there were terrorists there when maybe there wasn't.

[Arctic Blast]

9/11. What was the other time they attacked the U.S.?

Dude, people who became the nexus of what we now know as Al Qaeda were behind the 1993 car bombing of the World Trade Center, not to mention blowing up a pair of US embassies in North Africa in 1998. They attempted Operation Bojinka (Big Blast) in 1998, which was to involve blowing up at least 10 airliners (most of them US planes flying from the States) over the Pacific Ocean, but were called by Filipino authorities (Ramzi Yousef, who had been the bombmaker for the '93 WTC attack, was arrested at this time). Then there was Ahmed Ressam, the Milennium Bomber, who was caught by border authorities trying to enter the country from Canada by car in 2000...in his trunk was the explosives he was planning to set off at LAX. Finally, in 2000, they nearly sank the USS Cole while it was in harbor in Yemen.


Maybe the government did all that to make the Middle East look bad. Make it look like there were terrorists there when maybe there wasn't.

However, if the government was going to target somebody to 'look bad', it almost assuredly would have been Iraq or Iran. It DEFINITELY would not have been the Saudis.

[metsguy234]

Dude, people who became the nexus of what we now know as Al Qaeda were behind the 1993 car bombing of the World Trade Center, not to mention blowing up a pair of US embassies in North Africa in 1998. They attempted Operation Bojinka (Big Blast) in 1998, which was to involve blowing up at least 10 airliners (most of them US planes flying from the States) over the Pacific Ocean, but were called by Filipino authorities (Ramzi Yousef, who had been the bombmaker for the '93 WTC attack, was arrested at this time). Then there was Ahmed Ressam, the Milennium Bomber, who was caught by border authorities trying to enter the country from Canada by car in 2000...in his trunk was the explosives he was planning to set off at LAX. Finally, in 2000, they nearly sank the USS Cole while it was in harbor in Yemen.

Well we're told that this was all Al Qaeda. Maybe Al Qaeda doesn't exist and they are just U.S.-hired terrorists. Why should we believe what the government feeds to us?

[HoustonGM]

Maybe the government did all that to make the Middle East look bad. Make it look like there were terrorists there when maybe there wasn't.
:rolleyes: Look, I love conspiracy theories, but, be serious. I'm sure that the government of our country has committed some heinous acts and blamed it on others, but you're going over the deep end by suggesting that every single terrorist attack by al Qaeda was all the product of our government.

al Qaeda has attacked America and its interests multiple times. Saying otherwise is stupid and denying simple truth.


Well we're told that this was all Al Qaeda. Maybe Al Qaeda doesn't exist and they are just U.S.-hired terrorists. Why should we believe what the government feeds to us?
Holy hell dude.

So, all these radical Islamic terrorists that claim to be members of al Qaeda, they're all government plants? The government set up and ran al Qaeda?

Dude, you've gone further than kingmob.

[Arctic Blast]

Well we're told that this was all Al Qaeda. Maybe Al Qaeda doesn't exist and they are just U.S.-hired terrorists. Why should we believe what the government feeds to us?

I'll ask again...if this was the case, why wouldn't the government point the blame for the attacks at Iraq, Iran and maybe Syria, rather than making their friends the Saudis look bad?

[metsguy234]

Holy hell dude.

So, all these radical Islamic terrorists that claim to be members of al Qaeda, they're all government plants? The government set up and ran al Qaeda?

Dude, you've gone further than kingmob.

Think about it. They wanted the money. They rigged the 2000 and 2004 elections to keep Bush in office and keep using their hired terrorists to commit heinous acts around the world and increase support for this money war. They tell everyone that we must stop Al Qaeda. There are 6 billion pawns in this evil plot.

[HoustonGM]

I'll ask again...if this was the case, why wouldn't the government point the blame for the attacks at Iraq, Iran and maybe Syria, rather than making their friends the Saudis look bad?
WHO CARES?!?! THE GOVERNMENT DID IT!!!!

I never thought I'd find myself disagreeing with a person that's cynical (even very cynical) about the government. But this is just flat out crazy talk.


Think about it. They wanted the money. They rigged the 2000 and 2004 elections to keep Bush in office and keep using their hired terrorists to commit heinous acts around the world and increase support for this money war. They tell everyone that we must stop Al Qaeda. There are 6 billion pawns in this evil plot.
Alright dude.

:rolleyes:

Sorry, not even the United States government could pull off an operation that large and keep so many people that would have to be involved with such a thing quiet.

Get real.

[metsguy234]

WHO CARES?!?! THE GOVERNMENT DID IT!!!!

I never thought I'd find myself disagreeing with a person that's cynical (even very cynical) about the government. But this is just flat out crazy talk.

Well, the government makes you think it's all crazy talk.Bush isn't really stupid and friendly, he just did that to cover his tracks. "Oh, how could such a nice person do something so horrible. That's crazy talk!"

[HoustonGM]

Well, the government makes you think it's all crazy talk.Bush isn't really stupid and friendly, he just did that to cover his tracks. "Oh, how could such a nice person do something so horrible. That's crazy talk!"
I think Bush is a horrible man. I think the government, while maybe not orchestrating 9/11 completely, played a role in it, perhaps by knowingly allowing it to happen. I believe in a good amount of "conspiracy theories." I'm not one to believe what the government says. But, this? That al Qaeda is a construction of the U.S. government, and every al Qaeda terrorist works for the government? The amount of man power and secrecy that would be needed to pull that off is just not possible.

Put, stop feeding the troll, I guess? :rolleyes: You're making Michael Moore seem moderate right now.

[Arctic Blast]

I think Bush is a horrible man. I think the government, while maybe not orchestrating 9/11 completely, played a role in it, perhaps by knowingly allowing it to happen. I believe in a good amount of "conspiracy theories." I'm not one to believe what the government says. But, this? That al Qaeda is a construction of the U.S. government, and every al Qaeda terrorist works for the government? The amount of man power and secrecy that would be needed to pull that off is just not possible.

Put, stop feeding the troll, I guess? :rolleyes: You're making Michael Moore seem moderate right now.

As someone who's knee deep in the plot, Houston...you know too much. Oh, you were all content before, not knowing anything of our plot. Yes, the Illumi-Bilderberg-Zionist-Christian Right-Greenpeace syndicate has ALWAYS played the governments of the world like puppets. And everything was going FINE until that damned METSGUY butted in! Now, I'm afraid that you are all far too aware of our schemes...and will need to be dealt with.

Some of you are...salvageable. You will simply be mindwiped...or perhaps become the latest inadvertent pawns in our larger plans...

The rest will face the wrath of our rocket pack toting spider monkeys. There will be no mercy, I'm afraid...we've told the monkeys that you're hoarding the world's banana supply. No mercy indeed...

:D

[ohms_law]

Like all good conspiracy theories, there is a grain of truth to it. The CIA basically started Al Queida in Afghanistan... they didn't do it intentionally though, and it's grown way way beyond what it was originally intended to be (merely an Arab, anti-Soviet gurilla force to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan). Then, that growth was spurred on even more by Osama, and US activities in and around Saudi Arabia (You know, defending Kuwait and the Kingdom...). It's just that this.... this is those grains of truth, manipulated by a propagandist, and then manipulated more by the hurt and overactive imaginations of a young teenager... and we still wonder where middle eastern suicide bombers are recruited from.

Anyway,

Put, stop feeding the troll, I guess?
...yea


As someone who's knee deep in the plot, Houston...you know too much. Oh, you were all content before, not knowing anything of our plot. Yes, the Illumi-Bilderberg-Zionist-Christian Right-Greenpeace syndicate has ALWAYS played the governments of the world like puppets. And everything was going FINE until that damned METSGUY butted in! Now, I'm afraid that you are all far too aware of our schemes...and will need to be dealt with.

Some of you are...salvageable. You will simply be mindwiped...or perhaps become the latest inadvertent pawns in our larger plans...

The rest will face the wrath of our rocket pack toting spider monkeys. There will be no mercy, I'm afraid...we've told the monkeys that you're hoarding the world's banana supply. No mercy indeed...

:D

ROTFL!
now that's funny!

[metsguy234]

All I know is, if I see Bush on TV at the World Trade Center site on Thursday, I will feel incredibly insulted that my father's murderer and my mortal enemy dare show up there.

[RickD]

MetsGuy you really need to step back and do some research dude. Real research not the blatant over the top stuff you have obviously been feeding yourself.

As Ohms mentioned, the CIA did inadvertantly lead to the creation of Osama's regime.

Clinton actually had at least 2 opportunities to take out Bin Laden before 9/11

How, How can Bush, who was only in power 7 months, create, plan and pull off 9/11? I love how the same people who call the man an idiot can also attribute the mad genius plot to him as well.

[Jeffy25]

god I hate Moore

[Jeffy25]

metsguy you really need to step back and do some research dude. Real research not the blatant over the top stuff you have obviously been feeding yourself.

As ohms mentioned, the cia did inadvertantly lead to the creation of osama's regime.

Clinton actually had at least 2 opportunities to take out bin laden before 9/11

how, how can bush, who was only in power 7 months, create, plan and pull off 9/11? I love how the same people who call the man an idiot can also attribute the mad genius plot to him as well.

+1



All I know is, if I see Bush on TV at the World Trade Center site on Thursday, I will feel incredibly insulted that my father's murderer and my mortal enemy dare show up there.

This is the problem that I have with liberals....Of course i am sorry for you with what happened, completely unfair...life can be that way. but misdirecting your anger and believing that Bush is at fault in some way is atrocious.

[metsguy234]

god I hate Moore

You hate him because you can't handle the truth.

[HoustonGM]

Was bumping this necessary?

This is the third time this thread has been bumped after about a year or so of inactivity.

[Jeffy25]

You hate him because you can't handle the truth.

I can't handle some overly fat, overly opinationed overly liberal medai hungry slob spatting about whatever the hell he "thinks" is the truth and forces down the throats of americans.....he and limbaugh are a major part of the problem in America.

[HoustonGM]

Y'know, Moore gets a bad rap. He's a very good guy who's revealing government corruption to the people. I commend him for his heroic work to help this country.
This is a pretty good comment.

I thought government corruption didn't exist because politicians are all very good people who look out for their country?

:p

[Jeffy25]

This is a pretty good comment.

I thought government corruption didn't exist because politicians are all very good people who look out for their country?

:p

hahah yes.

i remember watching bowling for columbine...and he went to Charlton Heston and demanded that Heston apoligize for the murders of every child that has ever been killed because of a gun.....i mean come on............you are saying that this isn't extreme?

[Arctic Blast]

Michael Moore is in the movie business for the same reason anyone ELSE is in the movie business...to make money. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Jeffy25]

agree, fully.

[metsguy234]

hahah yes.

i remember watching bowling for columbine...and he went to Charlton Heston and demanded that Heston apoligize for the murders of every child that has ever been killed because of a gun.....i mean come on............you are saying that this isn't extreme?

People shouldn't have handguns and assault weapons.

[metsguy234]

This is a pretty good comment.

I thought government corruption didn't exist because politicians are all very good people who look out for their country?

:p

Dude, I change my opinions on things wildly in the same day sometimes. I said that A YEAR ago.

[President]

People shouldn't have handguns and assault weapons.

Let's just ignore the second amendment, shall we? You know, because the Bill of Rights is absolutely worthless now.

Ridiculous statement you just made. :/

[metsguy234]

Let's just ignore the second amendment, shall we? You know, because the Bill of Rights is absolutely worthless now.

Ridiculous statement you just made. :/

I didn't say people shouldn't be allowed to own guns. I said they shouldn't be allowed to own certain guns. The guy down the street from you shouldn't have a machine gun.

[President]

I didn't say people shouldn't be allowed to own guns. I said they shouldn't be allowed to own certain guns. The guy down the street from you shouldn't have a machine gun.

But people shouldn't own handguns? What, should everyone just own an air gun?

[HoustonGM]

Dude, I change my opinions on things wildly in the same day sometimes. I said that A YEAR ago.
Yeah, you're ridiculous.

[metsguy234]

Yeah, you're ridiculous.

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[Jeffy25]

haha, worthless

[Clay Dreslough]

People shouldn't have handguns and assault weapons.You're right. They should probably only have assault weapons.

Or are you just saying that to bait us?

[filihok]

Let's just ignore the second amendment, shall we? You know, because the Bill of Rights is absolutely worthless now.

Ridiculous statement you just made. :/

No it is not, and this argument is getting so old it is ridiculous.

The second amendment states



Amendment II (http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/bill_of_rights_transcript.html)

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

It is NOT the right to keep and bear assault weapons, NOT the right to keep and bear hand guns.

And unless, Mr. President, you take a literal reading of the 2nd amendment statement "shall not be infringed" to mean that the people may keep and bear ANY type of arm including, but not limited to:
atomic weapons, nuclear weapons, biological weapons, chemical weapons, etc, THEN you actually agree with Metsguy that restrictions should be put on private ownership of arms, you just disagree on where those restrictions should be.

[free2131]

I honestly can't think of a time Moore has outright lied, but I do know that he twist facts and leaves out certain material to make a stronger case for his beliefs, but that's to be expected. I no more expect a balanced look at an issue through a Moore film than I do from a Coulter book (at least he doesn't outright lie) or a Limbaugh radio show.

I think I agree with Moore more times than I don't, and while I think Moore does make people think about certain issues that they may take for granted, I think he turns more people off by his tactics (as does Coulter and Limbaugh).

[free2131]

For example:

You can hate him and disagree with him, but I don't see how a person can watch Sicko and not see that our healthcare system needs major reform.

[metsguy234]

For example:

You can hate him and disagree with him, but I don't see how a person can watch Sicko and not see that our healthcare system needs major reform.

Exactly.

[President]

Sorry for the long reply time.


No it is not, and this argument is getting so old it is ridiculous.

The second amendment states



It is NOT the right to keep and bear assault weapons, NOT the right to keep and bear hand guns.

And who is interpreting that? Because the Supreme Court, the highest jurisdiction of the law, interprets the second amendment to bear handguns.

Such as the case of the landmark District Of Columbia Vs. Keller, a fairly recent case as it was 2008. It was a ruling to see if a DC ban on handguns was unconstitutional, and it was.

Reasoning:
"amounts to a prohibition on an entire class of 'arms' that Americans overwhelmingly choose for the lawful purpose of self-defense". Similarly, the requirement that any firearm in the home be disassembled or bound by a trigger lock is unconstitutional, as it "makes it impossible for citizens to use arms for the core lawful purpose of self-defense"

"In sum, we hold that the District's ban on handgun possession in the home violates the Second Amendment, as does its prohibition against rendering any lawful firearm in the home operable for the purpose of immediate self-defense ... We affirm the judgment of the Court of Appeals."
Therefore, since a ban on handguns is against the second amendment, we must assume that the second amendment allows us to bear handguns.

Now this doesn't mean the founding founders intended it to be this way, but it is not my say to interpret the Constitution, that's the Court's job. And until the Supreme Court determines that handguns are not covered by the second amendment, I'll continue supporting that people should own handguns.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

And unless, Mr. President, you take a literal reading of the 2nd amendment statement "shall not be infringed" to mean that the people may keep and bear ANY type of arm including, but not limited to:
atomic weapons, nuclear weapons, biological weapons, chemical weapons, etc,

Obviously not, since like most rights, the second amendment is not unlimited.

From the same case:

However, "[l]ike most rights, the Second Amendment is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose." The Court's opinion, although refraining from an exhaustive analysis of the full scope of the right, "should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms."

Clearly, the Supreme Court will never interpret and allow someone to possess weapons of mass destruction. Just like the first amendment is not in effect when someone screams fire in a crowded room, the second amendment is not in effect when someone possesses the weapons you just needed.

---------------------------------------------------------------------


THEN you actually agree with Metsguy that restrictions should be put on private ownership of arms, you just disagree on where those restrictions should be.

I never said that I disagreed about his position on assault weapons. I was more focusing on his remark that handguns shouldn't be allowed. When he clarified that someone shouldn't own a machine gun or an assault weapon on his street, I didn't take it further and instead focused on his ban on handguns.

Also, I think it is safe to say assault weapons are connected with the military. Therefore,

The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home.

Which covers assault weapons, nukes, bio weapons, etc. Not handguns.

Links:
http://www.oyez.org/cases/2000-2009/2007/2007_07_290
http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZS.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller

[Jeffy25]

Well done President.

I also must remind myself that the same people that are saying you don't have a right to bear handguns are the same people that say everyone should have healthcare, bc it is a "right"


so i don't really bother.

i agree with the gentleman who said that you can't take Moore any more seriously then you can Limbaugh or Coulter.....I really do parallel Limbaugh and Moore....they are just alike representing two different agendas....but they are no different from the other.

[metsguy234]

Well done President.

I also must remind myself that the same people that are saying you don't have a right to bear handguns are the same people that say everyone should have healthcare, bc it is a "right"


so i don't really bother.

i agree with the gentleman who said that you can't take Moore any more seriously then you can Limbaugh or Coulter.....I really do parallel Limbaugh and Moore....they are just alike representing two different agendas....but they are no different from the other.

Except Michael Moore doesn't say slavery kept the streets safe at night and that Michael J. Fox is exaggerating the effects of Parkinson's Disease.

[Jeffy25]

Except Michael Moore doesn't say slavery kept the streets safe at night and that Michael J. Fox is exaggerating the effects of Parkinson's Disease.

no, he just demanded that Charlton Heston apoligize for all gun related deaths...

at least Limbaugh likes America, Moore can barely stand it.

People actually like getting their news and council from a man that hates where he lives?

Let me give you some fun quotes by this man



“The motivation for war is simple. The U.S. government started the war with Iraq in order to make it easy for U.S. corporations to do business in other countries. They intend to use cheap labor in those countries, which will make Americans rich.”


“I would like to apologize for referring to George W. Bush as a deserter. What I meant to say is that George W. Bush is a deserter, an election thief, a drunk driver, a WMD liar, and a functional illiterate. And he poops his pants”


“White people scare the crap out of me... I have never been attacked by a black person, never been evicted by a black person, never had my security deposit ripped off by a black landlord, never had a black landlord... never been pulled over by a black cop, never been sold a lemon by a black car salesman, never seen a black car salesman, never had a black person deny me a bank loan, never had a black person bury my movie, and I've never heard a black person say: We're going to eliminate ten thousand jobs here— have a nice day!”


“The more money I earn, the less they can stop me. Where I come from it's called **** you money because I don't have to take an ounce of **** from anybody.”

I could go on, i am just pointing out that he is an extremist.....an extremist who barely even likes his own country and yet you believe the crap that he says....come on....don't be an idiot fooled by an idiot.

[Jeffy25]

For example:

You can hate him and disagree with him, but I don't see how a person can watch Sicko and not see that our healthcare system needs major reform.

it doesn't mean it has to be socialized....trying to reform something just to say that we tried to fix it, doesn't mean it will work....i still stand by this

our country can not handle our healthcare system to be socialized the way Mr. Obama wants it to be....our country simply can not handle the concept that he has......it's a great idea just like so many others....but this is not one we should be supporting....

[metsguy234]

no, he just demanded that Charlton Heston apoligize for all gun related deaths...

at least Limbaugh likes America, Moore can barely stand it.

People actually like getting their news and council from a man that hates where he lives?

Let me give you some fun quotes by this man










I could go on, i am just pointing out that he is an extremist.....an extremist who barely even likes his own country and yet you believe the crap that he says....come on....don't be an idiot fooled by an idiot.


1) None of those quotes are as bad as quotes attempting to justify slavery and quotes saying that a man with Parkinson's is exaggerating the effects of the disease.

2) If Rush Limbaugh wants his president to fail, then no, it doesn't seem that he likes his country very much.

3) Mike doesn't hate this country, he notices true flaws that we have and works towards fixing them.

[Jeffy25]

I am not trying to say Rush is better then Moore....

I am trying to point out to you that they are both dumbass extremist who need to be taken the way of old yeller.

[metsguy234]

I am not trying to say Rush is better then Moore....

I am trying to point out to you that they are both dumbass extremist who need to be taken the way of old yeller.

Whoa there.

You're calling for the DEATH of both of them? Isn't that a bit extreme?

[Jeffy25]

it's quite obviously a joke.....go troll somewhere else.

[filihok]

Sorry for the long reply time.

No worries

And Jeffy is right, that's a really nice post. It's got quotes, it's got sub-sections, it goes on for two and a half screens, and true to your namesake-it fails to address the issue we were discussing.


It'd be nice if it were as easy as 'the supreme court decided' but it's not:


On June 26, 2008, by a 5 to 4 decision, the Supreme Court upheld the federal appeals court ruling, striking down the D.C. gun law.


In a dissenting opinion, Justice John Paul Stevens stated that the court's judgment was "a strained and unpersuasive reading" which overturned longstanding precedent, and that the court had "bestowed a dramatic upheaval in the law"

The Stevens dissent seems to rest on four main points of disagreement: that the Founders would have made the individual right aspect of the Second Amendment express if that was what was intended; that the "militia" preamble and exact phrase "to keep and bear arms" demands the conclusion that the Second Amendment touches on state militia service only; that many lower courts' later "collective-right" reading of the Miller decision constitutes stare decisis, which may only be overturned at great peril; and that the Court has not considered gun-control laws (e.g., the National Firearms Act) unconstitutional. The dissent concludes, "The Court would have us believe that over 200 years ago, the Framers made a choice to limit the tools available to elected officials wishing to regulate civilian uses of weapons.... I could not possibly conclude that the Framers made such a choice."


The Breyer dissent also objected to the "common use" distinction used by the majority to distinguish handguns from machineguns: "But what sense does this approach make? According to the majority’s reasoning, if Congress and the States lift restrictions on the possession and use of machineguns, and people buy machineguns to protect their homes, the Court will have to reverse course and find that the Second Amendment does, in fact, protect the individual self-defense-related right to possess a machine-gun...There is no basis for believing that the Framers intended such circular reasoning."

So, yeah, sure, the Supreme Court decided, but it only shows a flaw in our system that our 'rule of law' is decided by a game of best of nine played by people with their own politics.

[filihok]

at least Limbaugh likes America, Moore can barely stand it.

People actually like getting their news and council from a man that hates where he lives?

an extremist who barely even likes his own country and yet you believe the crap that he says

Jesus! Can this idiocy please be taken the way of Ol' Yeller. Dissent = Hate?

You FAILED at proving that Michael hates the United States.

[Jeffy25]

fair rebuttle fili....i have to agree with you that the system is flawed....on this paticular matter, i do believe believe people should have a right protect themselves with hand guns.....people that turn to the 2nd ammendment as their reasoning are they themselves somewhat naive.

I wish people would not put so much faith in an extremist....O'Rielly and Rush are no better.

I wish people wouldn't belive Jon Stewart.

but as Michael Moore says.

The American people are idiots.

[Jeffy25]

Jesus! Can this idiocy please be taken the way of Ol' Yeller. Dissent = Hate?

You FAILED at proving that Michael hates the United States.

I pulled it from quotes of his.

http://thinkexist.com/quotes/michael_moore/

So no....no fail


“I like America to some extent.”

[filihok]

I pulled it from quotes of his.

http://thinkexist.com/quotes/michael_moore/

So no....no fail

Yes fail. None of those quotes show that he hates America. If he said, "I hate America" or "I wish America would cease to exist" that'd show that he hated America.

Would you care to explain to me how saying "White people scare the crap out of me..." means "I hate America"?

[Jeffy25]

he said:


“I like America to some extent.”

and he doesn't seem to give the American people a lot of credit either.


Should such an ignorant people lead the world? How did it come to this in the first place? 82 percent of us don't even have a passport! Just a handful can speak a language other than English (and we don't even speak that very well.)”

[filihok]

he said:



and he doesn't seem to give the American people a lot of credit either.

So..."I like" is Jeffy speak for "I hate"? Ok. You see why we might be confused.

Why do YOU hate America (http://forum.sportsmogul.com/showpost.php?p=1320831&postcount=1) Jeffy?

[Jeffy25]

and there was this whole movie.

Michael Moore Hates America (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0411646/)

of course this was a movie attempted to discredit Moore, basically giving him his own medicine.

:p

[Jeffy25]

So..."I like" is Jeffy speak for "I hate"? Ok. You see why we might be confused.

Why do YOU hate America (http://forum.sportsmogul.com/showpost.php?p=1320831&postcount=1) Jeffy?

so trying to descredit the person making the claim is doing the same thing Mr. Wilson did with his 2004 film.

and obviously that doesn't mean i hate America......come on, don't be ridiculous.

me thinking that America's mainstream citizen is moronic doesn't even come close to being able to interpret that I hate America.

[filihok]

so trying to descredit the person making the claim is doing the same thing Mr. Wilson did with his 2004 film.

and obviously that doesn't mean i hate America......come on, don't be ridiculous.

LOL...so if Michael Moore says it, he hates America, and if you say it 'it obviously doesn't mean you hate America".

I'm not trying to discredit you Jeffy...I'm trying to either understand you or get you to understand.

You still haven't answered how saying "White people scare the crap out of me" means he hates America. I can only come to one conclusion about you, Jeffy, from that. I hope you will prove me wrong.

[Jeffy25]

Saying that white people scare the crap out of me isn't where i gathered that he hates america....i gathered that from when he said he can barely stand America.....which you can see why i would interpret that to saying he doesn't like America.

I could be wrong, i am always going to be willing to admit fault, and i will also admit that I completely ignore Moore.....just like I ignore O'Rielly and Rush....extremist get their power because the American people give them that power. They will come up with any claim they can in order to continue to retain an audience.....i see no point in listening to one side or the other of atrocious claims.

I don't personally care what Moore thinks of America....if he came into my office today, i wouldn't even acknowledge the fat slob. so i certainly don't care what he thinks, just like I don't care what Rush (hometown hero here in cape-from here) thinks or says.

[President]

true to your namesake-it fails to address the issue we were discussing.
And what is that supposed to mean?



It'd be nice if it were as easy as 'the supreme court decided' but it's not:


On June 26, 2008, by a 5 to 4 decision, the Supreme Court upheld the federal appeals court ruling, striking down the D.C. gun law.

I'm not quite understanding what you mean by here. The Supreme Court decided to uphold the ruling. It could have decided to overturn it. So, in a sense, it did decide that a D.C. gun law was against the second amendment.


In a dissenting opinion, Justice John Paul Stevens stated that the court's judgment was "a strained and unpersuasive reading" which overturned longstanding precedent, and that the court had "bestowed a dramatic upheaval in the law"

The Stevens dissent seems to rest on four main points of disagreement: that the Founders would have made the individual right aspect of the Second Amendment express if that was what was intended; that the "militia" preamble and exact phrase "to keep and bear arms" demands the conclusion that the Second Amendment touches on state militia service only; that many lower courts' later "collective-right" reading of the Miller decision constitutes stare decisis, which may only be overturned at great peril; and that the Court has not considered gun-control laws (e.g., the National Firearms Act) unconstitutional. The dissent concludes, "The Court would have us believe that over 200 years ago, the Framers made a choice to limit the tools available to elected officials wishing to regulate civilian uses of weapons.... I could not possibly conclude that the Framers made such a choice."

Fair enough, but his voice was obviously in the minority.


The Breyer dissent also objected to the "common use" distinction used by the majority to distinguish handguns from machineguns: "But what sense does this approach make? According to the majority’s reasoning, if Congress and the States lift restrictions on the possession and use of machineguns, and people buy machineguns to protect their homes, the Court will have to reverse course and find that the Second Amendment does, in fact, protect the individual self-defense-related right to possess a machine-gun...There is no basis for believing that the Framers intended such circular reasoning."
Ok, fair reasoning, but the chances of letting the public own a machinegun is nil.


So, yeah, sure, the Supreme Court decided, but it only shows a flaw in our system that our 'rule of law' is decided by a game of best of nine played by people with their own politics.
This isn't a flaw, I'll rather have a Court where all justices share opposing views than share the same ones. Yes, the Supreme Court has made controversial decisions like Roe V Wade and Plessy V Ferguson, but I think the court serves as a good check when the legislative or executive branch go "insane". If the Supreme Court didn't exist, then who would be "the rule of law"? A lesser court? But since there is no court higher than them because the Supreme Court doesn't exist, wouldn't that put the lesser court in the same position as the supreme Court? Would Congress decide the rule of law, even though Congress is constantly faced with gridlock? Or will the president be the rule of law, enabling him the power to become a dictator? The Supreme Court is not a flaw in our system at all.

Also, how did we change this topic to the second amendment...:confused:

[filihok]

And what is that supposed to mean?

Also, how did we change this topic to the second amendment...:confused:
We were discussing handguns, you brought up the second amendment. That's how and that's what I meant.



I'm not quite understanding what you mean by here. The Supreme Court decided to uphold the ruling. It could have decided to overturn it. So, in a sense, it did decide that a D.C. gun law was against the second amendment.

Fair enough, but his voice was obviously in the minority.

Ok, fair reasoning, but the chances of letting the public own a machinegun is nil.

This isn't a flaw, I'll rather have a Court where all justices share opposing views than share the same ones. Yes, the Supreme Court has made controversial decisions like Roe V Wade and Plessy V Ferguson, but I think the court serves as a good check when the legislative or executive branch go "insane". If the Supreme Court didn't exist, then who would be "the rule of law"? A lesser court? But since there is no court higher than them because the Supreme Court doesn't exist, wouldn't that put the lesser court in the same position as the supreme Court? Would Congress decide the rule of law, even though Congress is constantly faced with gridlock? Or will the president be the rule of law, enabling him the power to become a dictator? The Supreme Court is not a flaw in our system at all.


The flaw here, and in general, is that too often these decisions come down to a 5-4 vote.

The best way I can explain it is to say that we don't convict someone of murder with just over half of the jurors agreeing.

If 4 out of the top 9 judges in the nation disagree with the other 5 I don't see how it is any certainty that the issue is resolved.

[filihok]

Add this to above:

In the end it comes down to one person deciding the law, which is what the SC was created to avoid.

[clbd39]

Michael Moore is just in it for the money and personal gain just like many other film makers
you should take what he says lightly and use it mostly for entertainment and not much else above that
as far as a healthcare reform, of.course it's needed,what's not needed is more government invlvement and more money just being tossed at it

have you ever heard the politicians say they need more money for schools and education?
Eventually that money gets shuffled around and ends up being part f the big pot, I have many teacher friends, so I know a little about it

I saw a former Europea. Politician,whatever they are called there and he said he has a friend who broke his wrist or leg...anyways his friend was in quite a bit of pain and asked for a pain relief while waiting in the er,they told him no and he then asked to pay for it,the response was for him to stop waving his money around or else...

Do we really want. To
copy Europe on a seemingly failed medical system?

Less government, less waste (by all parties) and let America prosper,capitalism

[metsguy234]

Michael Moore is just in it for the money and personal gain just like many other film makers
you should take what he says lightly and use it mostly for entertainment and not much else above that
as far as a healthcare reform, of.course it's needed,what's not needed is more government invlvement and more money just being tossed at it

have you ever heard the politicians say they need more money for schools and education?
Eventually that money gets shuffled around and ends up being part f the big pot, I have many teacher friends, so I know a little about it

I saw a former Europea. Politician,whatever they are called there and he said he has a friend who broke his wrist or leg...anyways his friend was in quite a bit of pain and asked for a pain relief while waiting in the er,they told him no and he then asked to pay for it,the response was for him to stop waving his money around or else...

Do we really want. To
copy Europe on a seemingly failed medical system?

Less government, less waste (by all parties) and let America prosper,capitalism


Europe's medical system has been quite successful actually.

[filihok]

I saw a former Europea. Politician,whatever they are called there and he said he has a friend who broke his wrist or leg...anyways his friend was in quite a bit of pain and asked for a pain relief while waiting in the er,they told him no and he then asked to pay for it,the response was for him to stop waving his money around or else...

Do we really want. To
copy Europe on a seemingly failed medical system?


Yes. The system would work so much better if the doctors were more capitalist and took bribes.

[HoustonGM]

Not everything should be for-profit.

The well-being of humans is one of those things that shouldn't be.

[Jeffy25]

if you go to medical school for 12 years go into insane debt to do this, and take on a very low rewarding job.

what is the point in him going through all of this if he can't hope to achieve a healthy pay check? they work 70 hour weeks, they have to put everything else as a sacrifice in order to become a doctor. What is the point in busting your ass to take care of the sick if you have zero rewards? why not relax and just take life easy? what is the point in working your butt off for something that isn't going to offer any rewards? How are they supposed to pay back med school tuition? You will have less people working so hard to become doctor's. enjoy a free healthcare system where the only people that are paying for it are.......yourselves.

healtcare is not a right just because you exist and live in America. Thought this was a free country.....how is it free if you are forced to pay for everyone's healthcare? i am not saying our healthcare system is perfect.....


our healthcare system is bad.....don't make it worse.



Yes. The system would work so much better if the doctors were more capitalist and took bribes.

yes because Doctor's are bribed uh huh :rollseyes:


and i agree HGM...not everything should be for profit, and the healthcare system does suck and shouldn't be for profit, but doctor's and professionals should be compensated well for everything they do....

i would also say that scientist should be compensated as they look for new cures and work toward cures for the sick.....or we could just cancel that out as well.....bc it's a "right"

[HoustonGM]

Healthcare isn't a right because it's America. Healthcare is a right because you're a human being. No human being should be denied healthcare because they don't have money.

I won't respond to the strawmen, though.

[Jeffy25]

that's great and all.....but if you don't have money are grocery stores required to give you free food?

if you don't have money are car dealers required to give you transportation?

it isn't a right just because you say so.

what is the differernce?

if you can't afford healthcare there are tons of programs that you can join.......it is not something that the rest of society should be required to pay for.

everyone who needs healthcare can get to a hospital and pay for healthcare....that is the right that every human has......not free healthcare.

hospitals are built for profit, and are incredibly successfully ran businesses that create well paying jobs and technology. Life liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.



Think with your head, not your heart.

[HoustonGM]

that's great and all.....but if you don't have money are grocery stores required to give you free food?
No, but there are places you can go to get free food.


if you don't have money are car dealers required to give you transportation?
Cars are not the only method of transportation.


it isn't a right just because you say so.
Life is a right.


what is the differernce?
Neither of your examples stand up to scrutiny.


if you can't afford healthcare there are tons of programs that you can join.......it is not something that the rest of society should be required to pay for.
How do you think those programs are paid for?


everyone who needs healthcare can get to a hospital and pay for healthcare....that is the right that every human has......not free healthcare.
So, basically, you have rights as long as you can afford them. Sorry, that's not how it works.


hospitals are built for profit, and are incredibly successfully ran businesses that create well paying jobs and technology. Life liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Yeah, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. You know what's included under "life"? Yeah, health.

And those for-profit hospitals have sure led to a great healthcare system here in the United States! Why are we even discussing this? We've got a great healthcare system here! I must've forgot that!

And I think people also seem to forget that Obama does not want to completely replace our healthcare system with a socialized one. He wants to provide an option for those that can't afford the outrageous prices we currently have. You'll be free to keep your current plan.

[HoustonGM]

Think with your head, not your heart.
My head tells me that someone that's sick shouldn't be left to get sicker just because they don't have the money to afford care.

[Jeffy25]

there is absolutely no point in trying to reason with you.

i never said that our healthcare was great so saying this
And those for-profit hospitals have sure led to a great healthcare system here in the United States! Why are we even discussing this? We've got a great healthcare system here! I must've forgot that! is pointless.

these programs that are in place that help people get healtcare are fine....i understand not all can work their way up through life and become better. but i don't believe that the rest of America is required to cover those costs.


and you twisted healthcare and life as rights. just because you have the right live....doesn't mean that everything that leads up to survival has to be given to you.

and my examples do work.....where do you draw the line is really the point in them. what means healthcare should be provided for you, but not food?

i undesrtand there are programs to get what you need, the same exists for healthcare, so why on earth change it if everyone in this nation has the ability to receive healthcare if they need it....they may just get a bill for it.....i don't see how everyone else in this world is required to pay for your free healthcare because you didn't bother to get your own coverage in case something happens to you.


not buying it.

and everyone has the right to get to the hospital if they need to be helped.....

so then what are my rights if i have to pay larger taxes against my will in order to pay for everyone elses healthcare needs? that isn't a free country, your forcing someone else to pay for something they aren't using....again......gov't. loves to force money out from you to pay for them and everything else they decide is right.

healthcare isn't a right just because you say so.....sorry.

[Jeffy25]

My head tells me that someone that's sick shouldn't be left to get sicker just because they don't have the money to afford care.

most hospitals will still help you. and give you a payoff option.

[clbd39]

Hospitals aren't allowed to turn people down

so in essence since food and water are two of human needs we shouldn't have to pay for them? So free Mickey d's for all

I did go to school for 7 years while working to help pay it and sacrifice many things just so I could make minimum wage

I sacrificec quite a bit while friends who started working right out of high school got small houses and went out every night while I studied and wrote papers

now i'm paying off my debt and trying to be successful

I'm not saying people don't deserve stuff if they don't go to college, or persue their own unque opportunities but people choose their different paths and some want things now, others sacrifice now in hopes of successfullness later

[Jeffy25]

agree.

I have to pay 250 a month for private health insurance for alyssa, baby and myself. it is very expensive.....but i am working hard creating my own businesses. alyssa could have healthcare through her work, but it would be a little cheaper for us to put us all together, and now our delivery will be rather inexpensive because we have healthcare. we will also have tons of expenses healthcare wise for our son....but we are responsible for him and everything that will come through his life....it is not our gov't.s responsibility to pay for our son, it is ours....and we will.

if you need healthcare, you can get it....but it shouldn't be just given to you....it is expensive to take care of yourself.....and healthcare itself is expensive....but you can also pay it off if you need it. people do everyday.

seniors have free healthcare, poor people can have free healthcare.


so the rest of society that needs free healthcare..............people that can likely afford it on their own.


saw this statistic when debating this last year:

of the 48,000,000 Americans without health insuance, 47 percent of them live in a household where the income is at least $50,000 a year....

this means that a very large number of the people that do not have healthcare..........are electing to not have it. they aren't taking the precaution in case something happens. so why just give it to them?

the other 53 percent should seek out possibilities of specialized healthcare that isn't so expensive if they worry that something could happen to them.

also, many employers offer health benefits as an incentive to work there.....so get a job!

[clbd39]

So some people don't own their own homes, hell, I rent a place right now, Is a permanent place to live ALSO a fundamental right? Give me give me give me...

Some people don't own a car, should obama government motors give people one if they can't afford one? Where does it end? i sure wouldn't mind getting a nice plasma tv or even one of those new LED ones, can I have one of those? The right to keep and bear a washer/dryer set? If you do not have a lawnmower, one will be provided for you by an illegal alien? How much can or SHOULD the government do?

So where exactly is it a "right" and where is it spelled out in the Constitution about health care? The U.S. Census Bureau says that 84% of Americans HAVE health insurance. that seems like quite a few. so health insurance and health care is expensive, but so are a lot of things, if your health is so important it should definitely be budgeted and money set aside for such occasions...

[HoustonGM]

there is absolutely no point in trying to reason with you.
I'm sorry that I disagree?


and my examples do work.....where do you draw the line is really the point in them. what means healthcare should be provided for you, but not food?
This example does NOT work because as I said food IS provided to those that seriously cannot afford it.

I'm done with this, though. There are strawmen flying left and right. The above post, for example, is almost purely a strawman.

[ragecage]

All I know is, there needs to be a happy medium to where it isnt so expensive to get things done. I have healthcare, but I go into further debt with each passing month because of the medical supplies I need that I cannot afford after my insurance pays their portion. Thats where its rediculous, I cant even afford to pay the dam co-insurance, what does that say about the state of the medical system today?

[ragecage]

Oh and some of the supplies I need for my sleep apnea machine are NOT even covered by my insurance. So tack on another thing I cannot afford related to medical treatment. Ive been trying to save up just to get a new mask, and the filters I have to buy, I made my own because the provider wants me to pay my bill before they can send new supplies. Thats jacked up.

[Jeffy25]

i don't know what strawmen means......but it does make total sense, i agree with clbd

[clbd39]

America has the best health care in the world, i don't care if you like it or not, that's a fact, it's not perfect but it is actually the best, and now you all want that thrown away and have the anointed Obama put the most inefficient thing since a GM built gasoline truck engine to run it.

This health care plan has everything to do with power and control, isn't there a theme going on with all this stuff?

The plan House Democrats unveiled will cost $1 trillion over 10 years, but, did you know that only 17 percent of the spending comes in the first five years, hmmmmm coincidence? That leaves 83 percent to come in the second five years. Once everything finally has kicked in, the plan will cost more than double which is about $230 billion per year, which includes the rising costs each year.

So where does all the "free" money for this "free" program come from!?!?! I think Obama said, after his wonderful pitching skillZZzzZ, "We are out of money"

So where does it come from? Those mean and nasty rich people who hog all the money to themselves and never give anything to charity or ever provide people with jobs, they're so mean and sloppy!!! I wouldn't ever want to get a job from a "rich man" .... /sarcasm

So the new socialist democrats, sorry, the people's government... ha...are proposing to fund government care with a 5.4 percent surtax on those making over $1 million a year, with gradual taxes starting at incomes of $280,000 a year.

Sounds a bit like socialism to me, of course the rich sure haven't paid more taxes... than... everyone.... else.... wait.... i think they have.... TAX SOME MORE!!!

So that covers a third of this trillion dollar humbo-jumbo, where does the other 2/3's come from... oh that's right those efficient government people who know how to save so well!!! They expect to pay for it with...the expected windfall of savings the government will achieve.... right

They're going to conquer the unthinkable... fund a massive new program on "savings"

Right....
They claim that they're going to be able to beat those evil insurance companies in efficiency (**laughter**) because they don't have to care about profits or paying CEO salaries, because once again those people are mean and selfish! So what's the problem?...health insurance profits account for a whopping 0.6 percent of health care costs.

So... for every dollar spent on health care 0.6 percent goes towards health insurance costs, wonderful!

and remember those evil CEOs? well they account for 0.0005 percent of costs. So for every dollar spent on health care, 0.0005 percent goes towards that mean and greedy CEO

So, where is all this coming out in my common sense? the numbers really don't add up to much of anything.

It's about power and control over America...

So now the american socialist democratic party for government privileged power and king obama ... sorry Democrats... the government would control and additional 1/6th of the economy.

so combine that with out car industry, our banks and the rest to be overcome by the government, it's starting to look very un-American, can't wait until the energy is taken over by the government...

We are not Europe, we are not Canada, we are America, not exactly land of the free if you know what I mean

Besides where are those that want good medical care going to go when they can't run out of Canada from a hockey accident or something more severe, not their own crappy little run medical system

-im done

[HoustonGM]

i don't know what strawmen means......but it does make total sense, i agree with clbd
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

[clbd39]

strawmansometimes moderators may find that regulation of certain threads go out of hand especially when it becomes a little heated and emotions let fly with all kinds of biased reasoning.

In order to prevent such events from escalating and allow more responsible posting in such threads perhaps whirlpoolers can be educated about making more responsible posts instead of breeding contempt by misrepresenting the opponents position and subsequently attacking it.

An example as quoted from wikican be seen as such:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------the straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern:

1. Person a has position x.

2. Person b disregards certain key points of x and instead presents position y.
Thus, y is a resulting distorted version of x and can be set up in several ways, including:

Presenting a misrepresentation of the opponent's position and then refuting it, thus giving the appearance that the opponent's actual position has been refuted.

Quoting an opponent's words out of context — i.e. Choosing quotations which are intentionally misrepresentative of the opponent's actual intentions (see contextomy and quote mining).

Presenting someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, then refuting that person's arguments – thus giving the appearance that every upholder of that position (and thus the position itself) has been defeated.

Inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs which are then criticized, implying that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.
Oversimplifying an opponent's argument, then attacking this oversimplified version.

3. Person b attacks position y, concluding that x is false/incorrect/flawed.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious, because attacking a distorted version of a position fails to constitute an attack on the actual position.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

in marking posts as a herring perhaps one more category could be included called "straw man" for example to indicate to the mods that the post is with the intent to mislead and would only serve to infuriate others.

cn:
a straw man argument is an informal fallacy
informal fallacy

an informal fallacy is an logical argument whose stated premises fail to support their proposed conclusion. The deviation in an informal fallacy often stems from a flaw in the path of reasoning that links the premises to the conclusion....
Based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.

It should be noted that presenting and refuting a weakened form of an opponent's argument can be a part of a valid argument.

[clbd39]

lol beat me to it

[President]

I'm probably way in the past, but after researching universal health care I found an interesting site:

http://cthealth.server101.com/the_case_for_universal_health_care_in_the_united_states.htm


3. Myth Two: Universal Health Care Would Be Too Expensive

* Fact One: The United States spends at least 40% more per capita on health care than any other industrialized country with universal health care

* Fact Two: Federal studies by the Congressional Budget Office and the General Accounting office show that single payer universal health care would save 100 to 200 Billion dollars per year despite covering all the uninsured and increasing health care benefits.

* Fact Three: State studies by Massachusetts and Connecticut have shown that single payer universal health care would save 1 to 2 Billion dollars per year from the total medical expenses in those states despite covering all the uninsured and increasing health care benefits

* Fact Four: The costs of health care in Canada as a % of GNP, which were identical to the United States when Canada changed to a single payer, universal health care system in 1971, have increased at a rate much lower than the United States, despite the US economy being much stronger than Canada’s.

* Conclusion: Single payer universal health care costs would be lower than the current US system due to lower administrative costs. The United States spends 50 to 100% more on administration than single payer systems. By lowering these administrative costs the United States would have the ability to provide universal health care, without managed care, increase benefits and still save money

[Jeffy25]

because it would be cheaper by having the gov't run it rather then letting free enterprise run it.






















:rolleyes:

[Jeffy25]

strawman arguments happen consistently on here, notice fili did it with me just like two pages ago.


picking out the parts of a person's statement and picking which parts you want to argue happens on here consistenly

[HoustonGM]

strawman arguments happen consistently on here, notice fili did it with me just like two pages ago.

picking out the parts of a person's statement and picking which parts you want to argue happens on here consistenly
That's not what a strawman is.

[free2131]

Jeffy, there are people who are paid and earn a living to do the very best they can to make sure you and your family ARE DENIED the money for any medical services you need, regardless of how much you pay for your premium. Is that right?

And to whomever said we have the best healthcare in the world...

According to the World Health Organization (http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html), the United States is number 37 in the world, just above Slovenia. These are the countries ahead of us (not to spoil it, but a few have GASP... SOCIALIZED HEALTHCARE... dun dun dun... ;)):

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica

[clbd39]

Sorry free2131 but your statistics are flawed

out of 13 of the 16 most common cancers Americans have a better survival rate than those in Europe.

For instance...prostate cancer:
America: 91.9 percent of men live through it
France: 73.7 percent
Britain: 51.1 percent

Every year, Britain's National Health Service cancels about 100,000 operations!!!

If you want to have some procedure, would you want to depend on someone counting dollars and cents on your life that's in the government just trying to run a bugeted project? How about you ask those one million people in Britain currently waiting to be admitted to a hospital on top of that the 200,000 that just want to get on the friggin list!!!

My wife was in a car accident back in April, we were frustrated that it took 2 hours to see a nurse and then 2 more to see a doctor, but we should be happy we actually got to see one!

How about we follow the plan like Europe where if the temperature gets a little hotter than normal, they have 37,000 people die!!!

And Canada... 800,000 of their 33 million Canadian citizens are on waiting lists for just over 18 weeks, and why do you ask? SHORTAGE OF DOCTORS, well where did all the doctors go?glad you were asking yourself that... TO AMERICA!!!! they don't want to make 58% less than they could if they practiced in America!

Well France is so great, oh Spain was on that list, and what... #2 Italy... then why would Italy's Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi come if they're so great and friggin NUMBER 2!?!?! and number 1 france is surely closer than America. Socialized medicine must not be what it's cracked up to be if he had to have his heart surgery at America's Cleveland Clinic in 2006

[Jeffy25]

we should allow the gov't to run our healthcare, because they obviously run everything else so well :sarcasm:

[HoustonGM]

we should allow the gov't to run our healthcare, because they obviously run everything else so well :sarcasm:
The proposal is having a government-run OPTION.

[clbd39]

As far as the Great Massachusetts healthcare system

taxing cigarette companies more to help pay for a 42% increase since 2006

According to Public Citizen and Physicians for National Health Programs they called the program flawed because of its cost, lack of access to care and the remaining number of uninsured...

[clbd39]

http://www.pnhp.org/mass_report/mass_report_Final.pdf

[clbd39]

Steven Crowder Investigates CanadaCare...Will ObamaCare Be Any Better?

http://www.pjtv.com/video/Louder_With_Crowder/__PJTV_Undercover%3A_Steven_Crowder_Investigates_Why_CanadaCare_SucksWill_ObamaC are_Be_Any_Better%3F/2153/;jsessionid=abciKfHJVZQ15dkPeVkks

if you don't agree it's atleast entertaining lol it's kinda like an different version of Sicko, only real

[Jeffy25]

+1

[Jeffy25]

wow, sounds just so awesome! everything he just showed us in canada.

we found out last week that my mother has stage 2 breast cancer.

my father is on the executive board of one of the local hospitals. they were able to get the best oncologist, best doctor's etc and they have been moving very quickly to get her to chemo so she can battle this....and my parents are willing to pay top dollar to get the best doctor's.....they want to get onto their retirement, to be able to travel, and to be able to live their lives....they do not need to sit around for three years just to get the bone scans done......

canada's care sounds like a great option :rolleyes:

i can't imagine how much work people must miss waiting to see doctor's or nurses in canada.


can we get some canadians that are here to weigh in?

[Jeffy25]

just like with inflation the middle class is who gets ****ed by trying to make things even.....again.

the same stuff that Moore and Obama want you to believe..........that everything is going to be all neat and free for you rapped up in it's nice little bow. when you end up being the one's who get screwed over the most.

[President]

Steven Crowder Investigates CanadaCare...Will ObamaCare Be Any Better?

http://www.pjtv.com/video/Louder_With_Crowder/__PJTV_Undercover%3A_Steven_Crowder_Investigates_Why_CanadaCare_SucksWill_ObamaC are_Be_Any_Better%3F/2153/;jsessionid=abciKfHJVZQ15dkPeVkks

if you don't agree it's atleast entertaining lol it's kinda like an different version of Sicko, only real

Even though I know pjtv has a massive conservative bias, that video was really convincing.

[clbd39]

Even though I know pjtv has a massive conservative bias, that video was really convincing.

thank you for your honesty and watching it! :)

[filihok]

yes because Doctor's are bribed uh huh :rollseyes:


I saw a former Europea. Politician,whatever they are called there and he said he has a friend who broke his wrist or leg...anyways his friend was in quite a bit of pain and asked for a pain relief while waiting in the er,they told him no and he then asked to pay for it,the response was for him to stop waving his money around or else...

How would YOU classify this, Jeffy? Sounds like a bribe to me.
Plus, just because you are in pain, doesn't mean that pain medication can just be given to you. Since he was waiting in the ER he hadn't been examined yet, not a good idea to start doling out pills to people you haven't even looked at.

Anyway, this is a ridiculous example. Too much bandwidth has been wasted on it already.




I have to pay 250 a month for private health insurance for alyssa, baby and myself. it is very expensive.....but i am working hard creating my own businesses. alyssa could have healthcare through her work, but it would be a little cheaper for us to put us all together, and now our delivery will be rather inexpensive because we have healthcare. we will also have tons of expenses healthcare wise for our son....but we are responsible for him and everything that will come through his life....it is not our gov't.s responsibility to pay for our son, it is ours....and we will.

This makes me laugh every time that I read it.

Do you know how insurance works, Jeffy? Since you are so staunchly against paying for someone else's health care I don't know how you can participate in the insurance system. But your above example sure makes it sound like you don't mind if someone else pays for your health care. Hypocrite!

Read this
http://www.superpages.com/supertips/how-does-insurance-work.html

[Jeffy25]

This makes me laugh every time that I read it.

Do you know how insurance works, Jeffy? Since you are so staunchly against paying for someone else's health care I don't know how you can participate in the insurance system. But your above example sure makes it sound like you don't mind if someone else pays for your health care. Hypocrite!

Read this
http://www.superpages.com/supertips/how-does-insurance-work.html

How? where at all did i say anything even close to that?

where did i say i wanted someone else to pay for my insurance? please point it out to me.

[filihok]

How? where at all did i say anything even close to that?

where did i say i wanted someone else to pay for my insurance? please point it out to me.

Do you UNDERSTAND how insurance works?

You're a business man this should be easy.

You pay $250 a month for your insurance.

If you use LESS than $250 a month of healthcare, there is no reason to pay for insurance right? That would be losing money AND paying for someone else, which you are adamantly against.

If you use MORE than $250 a month, then who is paying for that? Someone else...

[clbd39]

Plus, just because you are in pain, doesn't mean that pain medication can just be given to you. Since he was waiting in the ER he hadn't been examined yet, not a good idea to start doling out pills to people you haven't even looked at.



pretty sure if you had a broken leg you wouldn't need much convincing of what you have...

PLUS... would you want to wait hours for a broken leg in the ER? doubt it

i don't understand how anyone can be in support of such ludicrous BS bills, let alone bills that get so much pork

more government control and spending is not a way out

[Jeffy25]

Do you UNDERSTAND how insurance works?

You're a business man this should be easy.

You pay $250 a month for your insurance.

If you use LESS than $250 a month of healthcare, there is no reason to pay for insurance right? That would be losing money AND paying for someone else, which you are adamantly against.

If you use MORE than $250 a month, then who is paying for that? Someone else...

paying 250 a month is the premium....i am wondering if you understand how insurance works.

you pay a premium, and they cover a portion of your healthcare costs that are covered under the plan that you purchase for the 250 a month or whatever your premium is.

you also have co-pays or excesive costs which can come about if you need more then what your insurance will cover.

our private insurance is basically paying around 10 grand for our delivery....pending no c-section etc. and we are budgeted to pay 250 a month in a premium.

this is a cautionary task....that is what insurance is.

just like with car insurance, renter's insurance, liability insurance for a business, life insurance etc etc etc.

This also contains our life insurance policies for all three of us, you never know.



and to add to this....there are like 50,000 different ways to be insured.....obviously what you are assuming from what i said is not accurate.

[clbd39]

What does this quote do for you...

"When implemented, the Complete Lives system produces a priority curve on which individuals aged between roughly 15 and 40 years get the most substantial chance, whereas the youngest and oldest people get chances that are attenuated.


The Complete Lives system justifies preference to younger people because of priority to the worst-off rather than instrumental value."

it's from one of the people advising President Obama on health care policy...
Dr. Ezekial Emanuel, he's the brother of Rahm Emanuel

[clbd39]

insurance companies and doctors will “bid” to be a part of the public option. (who’s determining the outcome)
Now the public option providers may only service those on the public option….they may not service insureds in the private sector at all. HR3200 sec201 (sounds like a division of hospitals & doctors to me)
Bonus structures for those Uncle Obama likes Sec1162
Penalty structures for those Uncle Obama dislikes Sec1162

the boards established through the government will determine what services and benefits you can receive.
sec 123/142/1145 (sounds like rationed care to me)

Oh and do not forget about your scan card that states all of your preapproval info…where you can go, what services you shall receive. Sec 163 (sounds like rationing and their choice to me)

If you like your private plan you can keep it, but after the effective date of the law you may not change it or sell any new insurance. Sec102 (doesn’t sound like a competitve environment to me) Also, all private insurance companies by Y5 must meet the same exact fees and premium levels as the public option or…end of “your so called” competition.

If you do not qualify for a public option plan you will automatically be enrolled into Medicaid. Sec 205

Small businesses will be screwed Sec 225/312/313 (self explanatory)

Illegals will still have free healthcare Sec 401

[Jeffy25]

+1


i can't see anyone arguing with you dude....you are too polished on this.

[Arctic Blast]

Do I think Canada's health system needs help? Of course I do, not being a jingoistic *****. I would like to see the sort of fair dual system a lot of European countries HAVE successfully implemented brought in to play, and I think eventually that will happen.

The single biggest issue facing the medical world...not CANADA'S medical problem, EVERYONE'S medical problem...is lack of staff. I'd like to see something done to encourage more people to go through med school, nursing school, etc.

On the domestic front, I'd like to see med workers become a bigger immigration priority. Don't fast track someone through before you can ensure that their foreign med training is up to local standards, but at least put their check at the front of the line since it needs to be a priority position to fill.

[Jeffy25]

The single biggest issue facing the medical world...not CANADA'S medical problem, EVERYONE'S medical problem...is lack of staff. I'd like to see something done to encourage more people to go through med school, nursing school, etc.



how about good pay?

[StreetMedic]

how about good pay?

Yeah, and even then...

I think you touched on it somewhere, Jeffy: Good pay's nice and all, but after years of education and training (and, frankly, getting your butt kicked in your internships and residencies), by the time you're out on your own as a practicing doctor, you're so up-to-your-eyeballs in debt from paying for it all that it's years before you've dug yourself out of the hole.

[Arctic Blast]

how about good pay?

There's no such thing as a badly paid doctor. It doesn't exist. There are different levels of well paid, but they all do okay.

I'm thinking more along the lines of some sort of education tax write off for a portion of med school. Even though they make good money, they rack up such a massive, crippling debt load during their educational period that it takes years, even a decade or more, to crawl out from under it.

[SirKodiak]

how about good pay?

spending money on health care professionals instead of administrative costs would be wonderful.

http://www.pnhp.org/publications/nejmadmin.pdf

[Jeffy25]

I'll take one of my best friends and brother-in-law as examples.

Michael(very close friend) and i grew up together.

we played against each other in high school, been friends since like 5th grade.

i went to the local university.

he went to a great college in Tennessee and paid 30 grand a year for his nursing degree.

120 grand right there, and he got a 40k a year job being a nurse at a local hospital.....do the math.

well after a year and a half of nursing, and basically hating it....he decided to go to anesthesia school which he had to borrow the money for (about 200,000 after adding his living expenses for two years for he and his new wife)....so he is 320,000 in debt before he can earn his 160,000 a year that he hopes to make after the last two years of schooling that he will endure during what is basically a full time graduate program that he has to work in daily.

and the school itself is hard as hell to even get into.

his wife is a teacher, who makes.....so-so money as all grade school teachers do.

so what is his motivation? He just spent over 300 grand for an education....and he won't even be done until he is 28. debt that he of course has to pay back.

then you add the insane insurance he will be required to carry...and his income really isn't nearly as high as it appears.

now let's add the high taxes that he will have to pay because of his tax bracket, and i will ask this: what is the point in doing all this sacrificing for the reward of having a healthy income when he is older after he has worked his ass off?

hell insurance is going to be free as well....he might as well just coast by on that 40 grand a year job...**** it doesn't matter to try and better yourself....what is the point?


it's a gamble, a risk, and he has the tools to do it......but it's hard work....if we socialize this, wouldn't his income go down? since it's free and gov't mandated.


same goes for my bro-in-law...also married to a teacher...also doing the same school. just finished his anesthia school. and they have a son with MD and the insane bills they have had and the insane insurance they have been required to go through.


and yet....if this was socialized heatlthcare...they would not have the doctor's or the help they have had because of their insurance....and Ben (nephew) certainly would not have progressed as far as he has without the specialized help they have been fortunate enough to have.


it is absolutely a mistake to change to socialized healthcare....

[Arctic Blast]

And those examples were the exact reason why I pointed out that there should be a cost of education write off. We should WANT people to go in to the medical field, and a reduction in the costs for them to do so probably isn't a bad way to encourage it.

As for insurance...the only thing that is ever going to help there is all of North America ceasing to be such a collection of idiot douchebags who sue anyone and everyone over the slightest possible problem. Sure, if a doctor really DOES screw up, rake his/her ass over the coals. However, the simple fact that the chances of a lawsuit happening are so high in our overly litigious society is why insurance is so damn high in the first place.

[Jeffy25]

well said AB

[StreetMedic]

the only thing that is ever going to help there is all of North America ceasing to be such a collection of idiot douchebags who sue anyone and everyone over the slightest possible problem.

Arctic Blast for President of North America!

(And while I have your attention, Arctic, what the hell is your avatar? I've been trying for months to figure out what that is.) :o

[SirKodiak]

(I think it is a samurai)

[Jeffy25]

so................Michael Moore huh?

[SirKodiak]

And those examples were the exact reason why I pointed out that there should be a cost of education write off. We should WANT people to go in to the medical field, and a reduction in the costs for them to do so probably isn't a bad way to encourage it.

As for insurance...the only thing that is ever going to help there is all of North America ceasing to be such a collection of idiot douchebags who sue anyone and everyone over the slightest possible problem. Sure, if a doctor really DOES screw up, rake his/her ass over the coals. However, the simple fact that the chances of a lawsuit happening are so high in our overly litigious society is why insurance is so damn high in the first place.

#1 I.D.
http://www.sokolovelaw.com/
http://legalblogwatch.typepad.com/legal_blog_watch/2009/01/legal-advertisings-biggest-spender.html
http://madisonrecord.com/news/contentview.asp?c=207934


Class actions are horrible, almost all the money goes to the lawyers.

In the wrongful death case I know about, the lawyers got 40% + expenses.

[SirKodiak]

Michael Moore = WoF, IMHO

[Jeffy25]

WoF

Wheel of Fortune?

Women of Freestyle?

Warrant on Fitness?

Worlds of Fun?

[StreetMedic]

so................Michael Moore huh?

I know, Jeffy.

I'll be your witness.

I noticed you bump that other thread earlier, in an attempt to "unhijack" this one.

Oh, well.

Whatev.

[free2131]

I'm guessing wall of fat, since clearly what needs to be debated is his pant size :rolleyes:.

Anyway, you never answered my question, Jeffy. Is is right (as in morally right) for your Healthcare company to have a person(s) whose sole job is to find any way possible to deny you, your wife, or your unborn child medical care because it would save the company money? Money... that's what it comes down to, isn't it?

Why do senior citizens sometimes freeze to death or roast to death when we have the technology to keep a room climate controlled? Money.

Why have countless people starved to death, when we have machines capable of planting and harvesting more crops in a day than 500 people in 1801 could in an hour? Money.

You know what, I'm sick the ***** to death of money. You know why one of the main reasons I love Star Trek is? For the human race (yeah HUMAN RACE, not American, not French, but HUMAN RACE) THERE IS NO ****ING MONEY. People eat... FOR FREE... People have medicine and get treatment... FOR FREE.

One of my favorite lines in Star Trek history:


“The economics of the future is somewhat different. You see, money doesn’t exist in the 24th century. The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity.”

THIS is what we should aim for. THIS is how we should live. Quick, who was the richest person in 1658? 1478? 400 BC? Know why we don't know? BECAUSE IT DOESN'T ****ING MATTER!! I know when Christopher Columbus (re)discovered America. I know when Hitler failed to conquer the world. I know when Martin Luther nailed his writing to the church's door. I know when Galileo defied the church to tell us that the Earth revolved around the sun. THOSE THINGS MATTER. THOSE THINGS CHANGED HISTORY.

Money, wealth, things, they're all illusions used to keep us occupied so we can be controlled. It's a vicious cycle.

How about we let people eat... FOR FREE. How about we heal them... FOR FREE. How about we educate them... FOR FREE.

You know what is socialized? Policemen and firemen. Would you rather cast aside those "Un-American" socialistic principles so we can be good citizens and PAY for a 9-11 call, or HAVE OUR HOUSE BURN DOWN because our Fire Prevention Plan declined to cover a fire started in our basement?

I leave you with a great song called "Money" by Serj Tankian (singer of System of a Down).




Money,
All for money,
Save your money,
Hide your money,
Stuff your money,
Hump your money
Keep your money
All for money,

Waning patience
People's appetite
Disposition
This possession
Dispossessed from all the attractions,
Dancing bears of eroticism,
Self absorbed delusion
Inclusion of dysfunction
I now await the triumphant
Lost baggage, train station,

The causes of ineptitude
Can be traced to my mandatory down,
The causes of my servitude
Can be traced to the tyranny of

Money,
All for money,
Make your money,
Hide your money,
Stuff your money,
Hump your money
Save your money
All for money,

My final surrender
Away from inclusion
I now await the triumphant
Left baggage, train station,

The causes of ineptitude
Can be traced to my mandatory down,
The causes of my servitude
Can be traced to the tyranny of a down
The causes of ineptitude
Can be traced to my mandatory down,
The causes of my servitude
Can be traced to the tyranny of

Money,
All for money,
Make your money,
Hide your money,
Stuff your money,
Hump your money
Save your money
Make your money,
Hide your money,
All for money,
Make your money,
Hide your money,
Stuff your money,
Hump your money,
Save your money,
All for money,
Money, money, money, money.

[SirKodiak]

I'm guessing wall of fat, since clearly what needs to be debated is his pant size :rolleyes:.


Nope. I don't even know what I have ever posted that makes you think that I would mean something like that. :confused:

[HoustonGM]

Preach on, free!

[free2131]

I wasn't directing it toward you, I was directing it to those people who instead of using fact to rebute Moore make jokes about his weight, thereby sidetracking the discussion completely.

[ragecage]

Hey I need money, I cant buy beer with hugs and kisses, believe me, I tried, oh how I tried.

[HoustonGM]

I'm assuming WoF means waste of flesh, by the way.

[Jeffy25]

I'm guessing wall of fat, since clearly what needs to be debated is his pant size :rolleyes:.

Anyway, you never answered my question, Jeffy. Is is right (as in morally right) for your Healthcare company to have a person(s) whose sole job is to find any way possible to deny you, your wife, or your unborn child medical care because it would save the company money? Money... that's what it comes down to, isn't it?

Why do senior citizens sometimes freeze to death or roast to death when we have the technology to keep a room climate controlled? Money.

Why have countless people starved to death, when we have machines capable of planting and harvesting more crops in a day than 500 people in 1801 could in an hour? Money.

You know what, I'm sick the ***** to death of money. You know why one of the main reasons I love Star Trek is? For the human race (yeah HUMAN RACE, not American, not French, but HUMAN RACE) THERE IS NO ****ING MONEY. People eat... FOR FREE... People have medicine and get treatment... FOR FREE.

One of my favorite lines in Star Trek history:



THIS is what we should aim for. THIS is how we should live. Quick, who was the richest person in 1658? 1478? 400 BC? Know why we don't know? BECAUSE IT DOESN'T ****ING MATTER!! I know when Christopher Columbus (re)discovered America. I know when Hitler failed to conquer the world. I know when Martin Luther nailed his writing to the church's door. I know when Galileo defied the church to tell us that the Earth revolved around the sun. THOSE THINGS MATTER. THOSE THINGS CHANGED HISTORY.

Money, wealth, things, they're all illusions used to keep us occupied so we can be controlled. It's a vicious cycle.

How about we let people eat... FOR FREE. How about we heal them... FOR FREE. How about we educate them... FOR FREE.

You know what is socialized? Policemen and firemen. Would you rather cast aside those "Un-American" socialistic principles so we can be good citizens and PAY for a 9-11 call, or HAVE OUR HOUSE BURN DOWN because our Fire Prevention Plan declined to cover a fire started in our basement?

I leave you with a great song called "Money" by Serj Tankian (singer of System of a Down).

free, i never at any one point said that our healthcare system is perfect, but it is better then the alternative that Mr. Obama wants us to implement.

Free what you are looking for would be

Communism


com⋅mu⋅nism
  /ˈkɒmyəˌnɪzəm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kom-yuh-niz-uhm] Show IPA
Use communism in a Sentence
–noun
1. a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state.
2. (often initial capital letter) a system of social organization in which all economic and social activity is controlled by a totalitarian state dominated by a single and self-perpetuating political party.
3. (initial capital letter) the principles and practices of the Communist party.
4. communalism.

[Jeffy25]

I wasn't directing it toward you, I was directing it to those people who instead of using fact to rebute Moore make jokes about his weight, thereby sidetracking the discussion completely.

i don't recall anyone making any such jokes, maybe originally when the thread was started....i did call him a fat slob, but so are many other people in this world....it isn't the reason that I dislike him. so that doesn't really count as sidetracking the discussion.



ragecage
Re: Honest opinion of Michael Moore...
Hey I need money, I cant buy beer with hugs and kisses, believe me, I tried, oh how I tried.

haha, go to a strip club :p

[free2131]

OH MY GOD!!

NOT THE WORD WE'VE BEEN TAUGHT SINCE BIRTH TO FEAR!!

We can't possible use the good things that communism and socialism has, no. There is now way we can admit that maybe our mortal enemies got some things right, while also getting a lot wrong.

IT'S THE REDS!!! THE REDS ARE COMING.

[ragecage]

There is none around here, and none that allows drinking. -1 -1

[Jeffy25]

haha are you really going to fight FOR communism?

[free2131]

Again. Jeffy, not directed at you or anyone specifically. I just hate when the cosmetic features of a person are used to belittle what they stand for.

[Jeffy25]

There is none around here, and none that allows drinking. -1 -1

come to this side of the U.S. brother....you don't fit in well in Cali. :p

[HoustonGM]

haha are you really going to fight FOR communism?
The parts that make sense? Yes.

[free2131]

I will fight for the GOOD IDEAS in communism, just as I do the good ideas in CAPITALISM, SOCIALISM, ect.

If it's a good idea, I don't care if you called it Satan's Cookbook for Sh!t Eaters.

[ragecage]

come to this side of the U.S. brother....you don't fit in well in Cali. :p

Ive been through there, I wish I wasnt working so I could have stopped at the Budweiser factory.

[Jeffy25]

it's a pretty cool tour man.


Horses are cool too ;)

I won't bother fighting with you guys about this one love mentality that is funneled under Communism.

the gov't should exist for only a handful of purposes.

deciding judgments in cases, civil trials etc.

police, firemen

military presence

education (to an extent)

transportation.

the things that if if needed to be provided for by the american public would not exist and because the mere fact that control would be an issue and that individuals could not sustain or control it.

Anything else is giving the gov't way too much control over something they should not be allowed to even touch.

A gov't that is powerful enough to give you everything you have, is strong enough to take everything you have away from you.

[ragecage]

Man free you were on a roll there, I just read the lyrics to money without reading what you said above. Until now. You know, I watched Star Trek every chance I could when I was a kid for basically the same reasons. I took me away from the poverty and drugs that plagued my home when I was a kid, and took me somewhere were people actually work together to solve problems, with no financial reward, but for reward in themselves.

[Jeffy25]

yes, it's a beautiful concept....but you do realize that forcing everyone to basically be slaves to their gov't what you are creating?

[ragecage]

Oh and the worst thing ever in Star Trek....you guessed it free....synthahol.

[HoustonGM]

So we happen to think that healthcare is a basic thing that should be provided just like police, firemen, court, roads, and education. Is that really all that crazy?

[HoustonGM]

yes, it's a beautiful concept....but you do realize that forcing everyone to basically be slaves to their gov't what you are creating?
Do you have trouble separating "take whats good from communism and use it" from "communism is the best system"?

[ragecage]

So we happen to think that healthcare is a basic thing that should be provided just like police, firemen, court, roads, and education. Is that really all that crazy?

No but certain political influences are trying their damdest to make us believe it is. Im not really buying their doomsday scenario if whatever happens with it passes.

[Jeffy25]

it's not crazy, it's a great and wonderful idea and concept, which i have stated....but trying to implement it in America is showing to be quite a mistake....the same with banning guns....we are learning that the concept maybe awesome but the execution and implementation of the concepts are what is difficult.




i have said this to friends who are interested in creating their own businesses in recent years.



there are millions of million dollar ideas....it's about the follow through, execution, and implementation of capital behind those ideas that bring them to fruition...every jackass i know has good ideas....but that doesn't mean they will become millionaires from those ideas....it takes a lot of hard work and dedication etc etc.

socialized healthcare is a neat idea, but you do realize how that won't work in a capitalized nation that simply can not support it? especially when it is the middle and lower classes that would be hurt the most by it.....the same people that the concept is supposed to be helping and protecting.

[ragecage]

Yeah but Jeffy, I think that capitalism boat sailed by long ago when them bailouts were handed out.

[free2131]

Politicians in France (#1 in Healthcare and have socialized HC) are scared to death to do anything to upset the people. Don't you remember all the student protest a few years ago when they tried to change one small thing (tenure for teachers, I believe).

THAT'S the kind of government we need.

Now, politicians are paid by the lobbyists of major corporations to basically do their bidding, and the politicians have no worries about getting re-elected because we are too busy trying to dig our way out of debt or collect more things than our neighbors to even look up to give a ****.


I won't bother fighting with you guys about this one love mentality that is funneled under Communism.

the gov't should exist for only a handful of purposes.

deciding judgments in cases, civil trials etc.

police, firemen

military presence

education (to an extent)

transportation.


So, some socialism is good, while some is bad? How can you tell where the line is? It's okay to have the government arrest an arsonist who tried to burn down your house, and to have the government put out the fire in your house, but ask the government to bandage the burn you got from the fire... psst, why don't you go dig up Stalin and suck his ****, you painty waist hippie, pinko.

:rolleyes:

[Jeffy25]

No but certain political influences are trying their damdest to make us believe it is. Im not really buying their doomsday scenario if whatever happens with it passes.

this was the main reason i didn't want Obama as president...I wasn't a McCain fan, but I didn't like a few concepts that Obama talked about...this was one of them.

I didn't hide when Obama became president, I didn't fear him becoming the president like so many other conservatives did, but things like socialization are what scares me.....especially being an up and coming entreprenuer......

[Jeffy25]

Yeah but Jeffy, I think that capitalism boat sailed by long ago when them bailouts were handed out.

and we have learned that as a nation, we have to have a healthy balance of both.

the same reason that democrats need republicans, just like republicans need democrats.


capitalism needs socialism for it to be successful....a healthy balance of both is great....communism=more gov't power.....not so much.

[ragecage]

On the contrary I think we would do just fine with neither democrats and republicans, they have held power waaaaaaayyyy to long.

[free2131]

See, though, Rage, everything has to fit in its box. Every idea is either all wrong or all right, and it's impossible to pick the good from one idea and another to create an even better idea. It has to be all or nothing.