Why you are thinking of quitting BMO or have already quit BMO

[khan]

There are over a dozen threads in the really active leagues talking about why some of the most active guys in BMO are thinking of quitting BMO and I don't think Clay hasn't read most of them. I do think that if Clay knew exactly how many people are thinking of quitting BMO (or have already quit) because of certain features/issues, he'd try his best to fix those issues (once Football Mogul comes out---which I can't wait for by the way).


A couple of suggestions (please feel free to add your suggestions in regards to what information should be posted):

--Please limit the replies in this thread to issues that have caused you or someone you know to quit BMO or issues that might lead to you quitting in the near future.
If you think BMO is a great game (which we all do to a degree or we would have not paid money for it) and you want to talk about its virtues, please start a new thread. There are hundreds of threads about what is great in this game and the fact that we are paying customers already implies that we like this game. Also, please don't rip anyone's reply (as long as its related to the title of the thread) and if you disagree with someone's reply and think BMO doesn't have those weaknesses/problems, please post your reply in a separate thread.

--In your post, mention how long you've been playing BMO, the most leagues you've been in one time and any contributions you've made to BMO.

--If you know someone who quit BMO really well, please have them reply to this thread. That would help Clay who in turn would (hopefully) make changes that would help us and possibly bring back the guys that quit.

--If you know or knew someone who quit BMO really well and can't get a hold of them but knew exactly why they quit, please feel free to post the reason(s) they told you were causing them to quit. For example, I know Cipster really well and (assuming I can't get his sarcastic arse to reply to this thread) I'll post what he told me were the reasons he was quitting.

[khan]

length of time at BMO- since the beta days (anyone else remember Particleman, BadAsh and company?)

most leagues played in- Silver account (3 including one custom)

contributions- Tag-teamed with JW to create (I came up with the plan and recruited players while JW put together the database and ran the league) Cash Money League, BMO's first cash-prize league and one of the most active/legendary leagues in BMO's history. Tag-teamed with Scorey to create HRL, the 3rd cash-prize league in BMO's history. Helped Clay and company create better playoff simulation (trust me, you guys have it good compared to before) by providing feedback.

I've quit BMO a couple of times (never longer than 6 months) due to things like playoff issues (the wildcard team used to have homefield advantage, etc), game availability issues (BMO's internet provider used to turn off service about once every two weeks) and issues with gameplay (player stats getting erased every couple of weeks, April 1st rating drops, a hundred A+/A+ hitters in the league most of who bat .280 with 15 homers, etc.)

I'm currently thinking of quitting BMO due to the following issues:

-Lack of draft system and illogical draft execution. By illogical draft execution, I am referring to playoff teams having as good a draft (and often better) as teams with really bad records (with both spending the same on farm and scouting). The lack of a draft system leads to me getting 2 Right Fielders when I already have an MVP right fielder but no SS or 2B. Please see Montreal in Fall Classic league (http://www-2.sportsmogul.com/bb/leagues.pl?viewleague=1804).

-The creation of too many good hitters (ratingwise) who can't hit. This ususally happens after the 10th year of the league. The game engine creates a ton of hitters who have great ratings but none of them hit very well.

-Weird shat like my league being reset to where it was last night for NO APPARENT reason, not being able to log in, having stats erased.

-Lack of additional features or change in rosters (except once a year). If you honestly compare BMO of today to BMO of 2001, there isn't much of a difference. What major feature (that fans really wanted) has been added?

[Deke]

Ive been around for awhile, June 2002 I believe.

Been in 3 leagues at one time, silver account. However, I prefer only one league at a time.

Im not thinking of quitting for game reasons, and would only quit because of real life time constraints. However, something has to be done about the draft. The system in place now just isnt working, and we really need to be able to evaluate the prospects prior to the draft, and set a draft order. Then we can draft based on need, and not hope the BMO gods give us something we need instead of another stud at a position we already have.

[kaill]

Khan and I have battled a hundred times about the problems plaguing this game (mostly with me telling him to stop being a whiner and him telling me to stop being a naïve fool :D ) but I think this thread is a great idea. My only caveat is that I'd urge everyone to do your best to be be constructive and stick with issues that COULD/SHOULD be fixed (ie if you're the only person you know who complains about something, probably not a beef that should be brought up here).

Anyway.
Been playing since the late beta days - don't remember when that was precisely. Quit for about 7-8 months last year due to time constraints and the reason given below. Never had more than a silver account. Haven't contributed anything, really, but I've participated in most of the biggest recent leagues, like CML2, HRL, COTC2, and the upcoming CML3.

I'm not thinking seriously of leaving BMO at the moment, but I agree that the draft is an enormous problem. Even something as simple as a page with sliders (similar to the strategy page) enabling us to pick what positions we'd like to emphasize would be a huge improvement.

The other thing that drives me insane (and caused me to leave the last time I left) is the lack of even the most elementary of stats. What's the league average OBP/SLG? How many runs did my team score and give up? Come on, these things are ridiculously simple to figure out, and make a HUGE difference to player/team evaluation. The reason I left BMO before was that it would take me literally hours a night just to feel like I had an accurate handle on the state of my team and the league, and that should be unnecessary. The game should REWARD people who strive to make decisions based on accurate information, instead of indirectly rewarding randomness by not making any info available.

[Chisox35]

Well I have no future plans to quit but I could think of a couple of issues that need addressed to make the game better for all of us.

-Fix the "stats loss bug". Scouting is currently an enormous part of being successful and if you can't afford scouting then you have to be able to rely on stats. It's inexcusable for a service that, we the customer, pay for to have the major part of the game be broken.

-Where are all the players? Like I have ranted before we need to get more people in here playing this great game. I don't know how to do it besides advertising but the game could be a lot better with every league being full.

-Fix the draft. The computer should not be making the future decisions of my team. I should have that choice, if I draft a scrub it should be my fault.

[hambone17]

I have a 10 pack love playing this stupid game but in one league we have lost stats three times in less then three weeks. Draft is another issue in one league I havent gotten a pitcher in two years.

[mcpickl]

ive been playing since early 2002, and havent thought of quitting until recently because i enjoy playing the game so much.

i have a silver account, currently in 2 leagues while waiting for cml3.

1 league lost stats last season, the other i currently cant access, so im guessing its about to lose stats. this aggravates me more than any other issue at BMO. the league that lost stats last season(Moneyball 2) went from 28 to 21 owners in one season after stats disappeared.

besides issues listed above(draft, etc.), i have three that bother me.

1. allowing teams to sign free agents during the playoffs, something that is, of course, illegal in MLB.

2. no transactions screen. ive found this is the most common way people cheat, having their friends or whoever make them a lopsided trade, which doesnt always make headlines. Id like a transactions screen where all transactions(trades, FA signings, released players) makes it onto one page so you can see whos going where, what teams are making moves, etc.

3. sniping, the one that causes the most hard feelings i think. Since im not a programmer, i dont even know if this is possible, but i wish there was a way you could bid on FA but not have every other team in the league see who you bid on, and what the bid is. this one is the craziest because even though in MLB , you usually know whos bidding on a player, it doesnt happen where the Yankess bid 80 on a player, the Mets offer 81, the Yankees 82.......if it were private, youd have to make your best bid, and hope it holds up. Would also be helpful for people that cant be online every hour.

all that being said, i still love the game and the competition it brings, i just think it could be so much better with some small fixes.

thanks for reading

michael

[mcpickl]

UPDATE: my second league has indeed lost its stats. and my first league is now not accessible, so that one will probably lose stats for the second straight season. GRRRRRRRRRRRRR

i'm now 2 for 2.

[hambone17]

Heres a post from one of the GMs Ive played agianst for awhile its sad to see you go.

yorkmidi37
I'm gone

Registered: Feb 2003
Location: Smithtown, NY
Posts: 1824
Had enough
I am leaving BMO. I can't see my self paying for a product that has not improved and still has same errors as the old version.

DaSox, sorry for bailing out and good luck.


__________________
Joe

[scooter12321]

this game is kinda like my girlfriend. i fell in love with both of them many years ago and sometimes i find myself thinking, "with all these problems why do i waste so much time with her/it?" i am being a little dramatic but i know i will be a BBMO player as long as it is around. i am nervous for the future of it, so i think it is important to figure out a way to rejuvinate interest and EARN a ton of new members who i know will join. i know i usually take advice as critisism, so please interpret this thread as us trying to help you and everyone will reap the benefits. we all are adicted to your game and i think you should take some possitive. people who play make this as big a part of their daily routine as their morning coffe. i learned in CML2 when we did a thread of "who you are? and what do you do?" that this game attracts successful intellegent people. All these people from all different backgrounds are adicted to YOUR game. i see a huge opportunity for you to get this thing cranking!

[knightly]

I have vented and writen on this subject a number of times, the unfortunatle and telling outcome is the typical Mogul lack of response to the subject!

Why I would leave? (have a left in the past)
The biggest and most telling reason to leave, the worst customer service I have seen!:mad: It is worse than bad, it is not about features of the product; it is often the careless attitude of the powers that be at Mogul. Unresponsiveness, product failure and lack of focus are the three management and service problems Moguls has that are obvious to all but Mogul themselves. These guys are developers and clueless with business and marketing (read - customer service). These areas are critical to Mogul's growth, without added and increased efforts here -- this is the best Mogul will be.

I am also concerned also about the frequency and extent of participants "bending the rules!" I have quit leagues for this reason.

Why to stay? (returned to the game)
Mogul is a compelling game that offers strategic-based competition with an emphasis on skill and some luck. It is a community of fanatical participants who willing contribute (commish). I enjoy the witting banter, and variety of baseball opinions as a distraction from everyday and mundane things. I like the fast-paced and medium-paced aspects of the game and the relatively low cost of entry and required skill-level.

[Scorey1974]

Well...I've have not been around quite as long as those who were here in the "beta" days...but I have been a dedicated member since the summer of 2002...I've been in as many as 10 leagues at one time (what was I thinking :confused: ) to as little as 3 leagues at a time...I have taken a break here and there but have always come back.

My biggest contributions to Mogul have come through creating custom rosters that are up-to-date and contain many of the top prospects in MLB. I have a new BMO league under way that (will) contain a version of my latest release (When Ian or Clay get around to uploading it)...Rotochamp2 chipped in with this years universe file and with his expertise in the development of minor league players this years roster file promises to be the best to have ever come out...

My biggest fear is that Clay has no interest in whether or not this company and the game itself survives...He has built a great game and obviously has some very avid fans (myself included). BUT...There has to be some change if he wants this thing to keep on track...Advertising has to be his number 1 priority right now...There are tons of roto sites he could be putting advertisements up on...Sports magazines...etc...There is a huge market out there for this type of thing and I would suspect that the market is largely untapped...But then again...if Clay has no real interest in whether or not Mogul survives...then...that would explain the apathetic treatment we all seem to be getting...

I guess my biggest reason for leaving would be that I can see this game being so much more than it is...That is also why I stay...so it's a bit of an oxymoron...I guess I have to decide whether or not I feel that Clay will commit to this game or not...I would like to see an official response from SM that declares his specific intentions.

[Hash1]

Ive been thinking about quitting mogul for months now but wont because im a commish of league. Once my league ends im outta here and will not be coming back.

[khkoenig]

What drives me nuts is the system instability. How can they justify taking my money each month when league stats suddenly disappear? I don't even mind being down for a day or two if it means the league will remain intact.

I'm currently in two leagues, and both are down. HOW CAN THIS HAPPEN? A decent system administrator would have monitors in place to check this type of thing - and have a reasonable recovery solution. And a defined structure so users would easily be able to report problems.

I've been playing this game for three years. While there are many ideas for improving this game, the one thing that will drive people away is this rampant instability. :mad:

[michaelg123789]

Well, I for one will not be going anywhere anytime soon on account of this, and I will encourage everyone to sit tight. It's unfortunate this sort of thing happened, but it's not the end of the world.

I'm sure I speak for many others when I say this game provides me with a great deal of entertainment, even despite these setbacks.

[jmarter]

Relax guys, help is on the way. Leagues are back up. They are working on the stat loss.

[Scorey1974]

Originally posted by jmarter
Relax guys, help is on the way. Leagues are back up. They are working on the stat loss.

Help may be on the way...BUT...there are so many other issues at hand right now that this kind of put the icing on the cake at the moment...

[mcpickl]

jmarter, where'd you hear help is on the way?

I don't see a post from Clay or Ian anywhere.

[jmarter]

I talked to jokerswild who got ahold of Ian immediately.

[michaelg123789]

Originally posted by mcpickl
jmarter, where'd you hear help is on the way?

I don't see a post from Clay or Ian anywhere.
http://forum.sportsmogul.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=62463

[jmarter]

I have been involved with BBMO for almost 2 years straight, up to 6 leagues at a time. I commish one (AGML) and am quite active in my leagues. For the first time, I can actually see myself leaving mogul online.

I can handle most of the warts and hope that eventually the owners will incorporate the suggestions that GMs have proposed. All of them would make the game even better. But, the one thing I cannot handle is the stat loss and/or the associated "resims." Perhaps I am overly sensitive to this issue because twice in the last week one or more of my leagues have had to resim in order to regain stats. Going from a great sim to a horrible sim is very difficult to take when you invest a lot of time in your teams. Without some assurance that this can be prevented, I may well be on my way out the door on the next occurence. Unless of course I go from a bad sim to a good sim. :D

[DaveHorn]

A lot of bad things were happening in BBMO about a year and a half ago. It started roughly in 2Q 2003. I think there were two significant events that caused a quite a mass exodus of longtime and original BBMOers. First the credit cards getting stolen was a pretty big deal to a lot of folks. Shortly after was when the stats loss events began.

The loss of my leagues history was the icing on the cake for me. History is everything in a baseball sim for me. Almost everyone I know who left left for one of these two reasons and most have never came back.

I keep checking in from time to time. I can't believe the stats loss problems still occur. There is absolutely no excuse for that. I'd love to play BBMO again. I've moved on to better baseball sims, but BBMO offers something I still haven't found anywhere else. But I would never even think of playing BBMO while at these problems still occur. I can't believe after more than a year nothing seems to have changed.

[jmarter]

Yes, it is frustrating that the stat losses still occur periodically. To their credit, we have been able to find a lesser of two evils - resims.

[khan]

Cipster (one of the most active players in BMO history) left BMO because of the constant rating changes despite being in top 5 scouting (one day your 26 year old 1B has 95 contact and 80 power but the next day he has 89 contact and 75 power for no apparent reason) as well as the lack of new features.

[thejimmyst91]

I have been around ofr some unforseen amount of time. My first post was 04-13-2003 so I guess that was when I startes. Since I've been here, I've payed 10 bucks a month to have my credit card stolen, all my stats continually lost, player ratings completely out of whack, etc etc etc. Boo hoo for me right?

I recently left for aobut a month and a half, and didn't find that I missed it that much. I'm back and I'm not all that sure why. I'm pretty tempted to find other online baseball sims, but Mogul was my 1st love and I guess it would feel like cheating, if that makes sense.

The sad thing is, how long have we been complaining about stats losses? Inconsistent ratings? How long have we not gotten responses?

[Donyoungdropsit]

It's over.

[Clay Dreslough]

BMO Code Update:

http://forum.sportsmogul.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=63878

[Bad_Ash]

I thought I'd chime in from the grave. First of all I'd like to say I loved my time playing baseball mogul online, especially the beta and first few leagues. Once people found out how to exploit the game mechanics is when I started to get turned off on the game. For an online game to be successful and have player retention it needs to be fair yet challenging. For the most part I find BMO challenging, but not fair to all players. I think there needs to be a system for drafting players, free agency needs a revamp, and I'm sure more of the current players have other suggestions.

One of my biggest pet peeves of the game was I felt the need to micro manage my team. Which would lead me to paying too much attention to the game and cause me to sacrifice time in other areas of my life. My other biggest gripe really had nothing to do with the game, but with the players. Some of the best players I've seen are more like silver tongued devils than a simulation of a real baseball manager/owner.

I played BMO because I wanted to emulate Major League Baseball in my own little fantasy world with other like minded individuals. But instead what I got was players trying to outsmart the game mechanics, rip off the less strategic minded, and make a mockery of the game in the process.

When I did quit I quit in hurry with no explanation to my fellow players, for that I apologize. My interest in sports has declined. I prefer to spend my time playing fantasy mmorpg's with more player interaction in a team based setting. The only sports game I play anymore is Madden's which I have been a loyal follower of since the 80's.

Badash

Hello to all you old timers, hope you all have a Merry Christmas!

[khan]

Do they have christmas in the Ozarks?

[michaelg123789]

Originally posted by khan
Do they have christmas in the Ozarks?
You mention silver tongued devils and look who shows up. :D

[Clay Dreslough]

Good to hear from you Badash.

We are going to add a way to control your draft, sometime around the early part of the 2005 baseball season.

What do y'all find to be the areas most exploited that need to be fixed?

Clay

[Bad_Ash]

Free agency

I really dislike how you have to be online at X time to make an offer for Y player, and if you aren't on he is signed by Z team that just happens to be online at the time. Makes some free agencies a matter great timing as opposed to great strategy.

Other sports games I've played don't have free agency dependent on who is willing to pay the most per season. Length of contract is very important because every contract I've seen is staggered upward in per season salary (Joe makes 500k in 1st year, 600k 2nd year, 700k 3rd year). Every year free agency and contract negotiations come down to bickering over the term of contract. Weight bids for length of contract or stagger yearly salaries.

Make players have desires/wants. Give them home towns, give them a random favorite to win their bid. Make it so Joe is from Chicago and wants to play for the Cardinals.

I guess one of the things in the game I got tired of that didn't make a whole lot of sense is how money is spent in game; Salaries, Farm, Scouting, and Medical. If any particular teams have better scouting and medical in MLB over others I'm not aware of it. I could see some fields being more friendly to injuries (natural grass, padded walls).

Farm is a tricky one, the Dodgers spend alot on their farm system, conversely the Twins don't. The Twins revitalized their organization with great management and coaching. Also if the game is to remain the same, why not allow scouting to be improved for your own team and minor league system. You sure as **** should know your own players better than anyone even if they spend more on their scouting than you do. Nothing worse than losing a great player just because your scouting is lousy.

How about adjust scouting to be insight into a players potential as opposed to his current level of skill. Or break down scouting into the fundamentals of baseball; hitting, pitching, and fielding. Or even more so into those 3 divisions; power hitting, power pitching, fielding range, etc.

How about add coaching. If you don't want to have particular coaches allow players to have slide bars for a coaches strengths and weaknesses, then assign them monetary values. Allow coaches to improve players, improve the teams motivation, be better defensively, etc.

How about mentorship from older players, especially in pitching. Give people a reason to sign that older pitcher that is past his prime. Maddux is a great example here, one season with him and seeing how he throws pitches really helps younger guys. Ask Morris who his mentor was, he'd sale Kyle. I'm not saying all experienced pitchers are mentors, but some are like having an extra coach on the team.

How about adding denotations to some players to make them special. Example; clutch hitter, big game pitcher, mentor, and team player. Look at Pat Tabler, many might not have heard of him, he was a holy terror with the bases loaded. Schilling traditionally is a better pitcher in big games. A team player would be like Tommy Herr a man that knew how to move baserunners around.

As you can see I could probably go on forever. I wouldn't be making these suggestions if I didn't think Clay and Sportsmogul didn't care about their fanbase. I hope you guys know Clay could probably be making alot more money programming for a big company and with no complaints. But he likes to be independent and follow his own dreams. Just keep your criticisms constructive and realize people don't all quit because of the game and its features. I just cancelled all my subscriptions to online games so I can concentrate on writing a novel.

God Bless and Happy Holidays,

Badash

[khan]

BadAsh loves me MichaelG. If it were not for me and my 120-win Dodger teams advancing weak NL teams to the WS, his Oakland team in Mogul Enthusiast would have never had as many WS as they did.

I give credit where credit is due and BadAsh taught a newbie the ropes of BMO back in the day......

[michaelg123789]

Originally posted by khan
I give credit where credit is due and BadAsh taught a newbie the ropes of BMO back in the day......
I only wish I had spoken to him back in the day. I might have been something by now. :)

[michaelg123789]

Originally posted by Clay Dreslough
What do y'all find to be the areas most exploited that need to be fixed?
Clay
I don't know how this would greeted by others, but I'll throw out an idea for Free Agency.

Say we set a specific date Free Agents are signed, like say February 23 (Just threw that out there, totally negotiable)

Although this would take away a bit of the realism I suppose, it would effectively give everyone a chance to make a bid on Free Agents. Since the season ends late October or early November, this would give everyone a day or two to submit a bid to any Free Agents in the pool. It would work much like the current system, except when the player demands are met, they aren't automatically signed by the last team making a bid but rather the team with the most lucrative bid at a specific game date.

Don't know how you guys would feel about this, but I must say the current system favors those who have access to a computer during the daytime, and screws those who don't or are unable to log in during the daytime hours.

Under my so called proposal, everyone would have at least 1 day to see, and bid on all the Free Agents present.

Any thoughts, comments?

[Craigrrs]

I agree, the player should go to whoever is willing to pay the most. In an ideal system, the max bid feature would work, but people don't use it how it's meant to be used, including myself. Everyone tries to get them as cheap as possible, and of course the best way to do that is to wait til the last second and then throw your bid in, with a big max. It shouldn't be time dependent to determine who wins a player.

Maybe if there was someway to say "Ok after an initial bids, if no ones else bids on this player for X about of time, he gets the player at that price." Enough time would have to be given so that all players have a fair shot. However, if you don't log in for like 10 hours, then you should even expect to win a player. You should HAVE to be reasonably active to win a player. How much time that is allowed would have to be dicussed tho.

This would simulate "going to the highest bidder" because if no one else even bids, then the highest bidder is winning the player.

Does this even make sense? Sorry it's getting late.

[scooter12321]

Originally posted by Donyoungdropsit
It's over.


you sound like a lot of sox fans i know after game 3 against the yanks. just like the sox, you came back though.

[scooter12321]

honestly, there is so much i can think of but am not sure what is pratical. i remember a list clay posted awhile back with a ton of features and we voted on what we want next. i am assuming that all of those things are possible, so i say just gown down that list and if you need more ideas we have a ton.

[Griswel]

Originally posted by Craigrrs
I agree, the player should go to whoever is willing to pay the most. In an ideal system, the max bid feature would work, but people don't use it how it's meant to be used, including myself. Everyone tries to get them as cheap as possible, and of course the best way to do that is to wait til the last second and then throw your bid in, with a big max. It shouldn't be time dependent to determine who wins a player.

How about this:

No update on who has the Maximum bid starting 5 minutes before the next sim.

That way everyone is bidding blind. This would:

1 - benefit people who bid early, since only people who bid more than 5 minutes before a sim could see whether or not they were top bidder;

2 - Completely prevent people from bidding maximum at the last possible moment, since they would not know what the maximum was; and so

3 - Encourage people to simply put in their maximum bids.

EDIT - Somebody ought to change the title of this thread :D

[Schmergman]

I would prefer it a great deal if Free Agent bidding was completely blind. All you see are the players current demands. You dont know if someone has met those demands. In real life you dont actually know who is making these offers to a player. For instance Carlos Beltran is asking 200M over 10 years in MLB right now. If the astros offer it to him, he is going to sign with them right away. He wont need to wait any more because his demands have been met. As time goes, his demands will go down and as soon as someone meets his demands, he signs. If 3 teams meet the demands then he goes to the highest bidder. But the key is you dont know who is offering the best contract. I really think this would be more realistic then a player getting 9 simultaneous contracts with 100K more each time at 5:59 AM.