10.24 Pitcher scoring bugs (Earned vs unearned runs, Wins, Saves) [Improved 10.25]

[Ken Moore]

Not sure if this is a bug but it is very annoying.

Looking at the box scores after a game I noticed my closer was used in the eigth and ninth innings and held the two run lead. The starting pitcher got the win, the closer DID NOT get the save. This has happened at least twice so far in my first season with SM05.

okay, that's one...

In another game the closer was brought in with runners on 1st and 2nd with two outs in the eigth inning and his team leading by one run. He gives up a two run double...okay a blown save.. He then retires the next batter to end the inning. Low and behold the box score gives him the loss, as does his roster page. tsk tsk It was the inherited runners that scored, not his lone runner. The pitcher who put the two men on base, obviously, should have been given the loss.

The above 'errors' were also in versions for 2003 and 2004..

Additionally, in at least three games the starter left with the lead. Two innings later the relievers lost that lead, but guess who got the loss...yep..the starting pitcher who left two inning earlier with a three run, or more, lead.

I understand that programming a stat intensive game can be a challenge, even for those with loads of experience doing it. But com'on..these are BASIC to pitching stats in-so-far as win/loss/save/blown saves go.

Otherwise I give SM05 a solid 80 out of a possible 100.

Ken

[goyanks225]

Originally posted by Ken Moore

In another game the closer was brought in with runners on 1st and 2nd with two outs in the eigth inning and his team leading by one run. He gives up a two run double...okay a blown save.. He then retires the next batter to end the inning. Low and behold the box score gives him the loss, as does his roster page. tsk tsk It was the inherited runners that scored, not his lone runner. The pitcher who put the two men on base, obviously, should have been given the loss.


In that situation, the reliever who gave up the run is given the loss, as he is the one who gave up the winning run. The other errors in the game are errors, but this isn't, it's a rule in the MLB.

[Ken Moore]

I beg to differ on that...the runners on the bases are the sole responsibility of the pitcher that put them there..not the reliever or any previous pitcher. Therefore, if Joe Starter left the game with runners on say first and second and then the reliever John Camelately gives up a home run..the reliever is charged with only ONE run while the starter is charged with the TWO runs. That is the rule in MLB.

Lets say for the sake of argument that the starter left the game with a 2-1 lead.

The reliever comes in with two runners on and gives up the home run. Here is how the runs are charged:

The starter is charge with 3 runs; the previous run PLUS the two runners that were on base when he left;

The reliever is charged with 1 run. The batter that hit the home run.

Moreover, lets say those were the only runs scored for the remainder of the game for either team. That is to say Joe Starter's team lost the game 4-2.

The winning run was the responsibility of the STARTER, not the Reliever and therefore the STARTER is tagged with the loss. At worse, the reliever gets a blown save (depending on when in the game he came in).

It is NOT who is pitching when the winning run is scored necessarily, it is WHO is responsible for the runner who crossed the plate with the eventual winning run.

This is one of the reasons (other than agents wanting to jack up the salary requests for their clients) the 'Inherited Runner' stat has reared its ugly head in the MLB. Because, a reliever can let a tying run, or even a go ahead run score and eventually get the win if his team comes back to win the game. The agents feel that if their client (a reliever) can keep inherited runners from scoring, the pitcher is more valuable and thereby deserves a higher salary.

If I could find my MLB rulebook I could give you page, paragraph, section, subsection that pertains to this instance. But, alas, it is somewhere buried deep in the piles of mags, books, paper, wrappers, dirty plates and such in this computer room. ;)

All the best,
Ken

[vale]

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/official_info/official_rules/official_scorer_10.jsp

You can find the relevant stuff under 10.19(e)

[Ken Moore]

I should quickly add that as for the Closer not getting credit for a save when he should have, the game made up for it the following year..the very same Closer not only got the save, but the win; in the same game.

Now that is real nifty! Not right of course, but nifty all the same.:rolleyes:


Ken

[goyanks225]

Originally posted by Ken Moore
I beg to differ on that...the runners on the bases are the sole responsibility of the pitcher that put them there..not the reliever or any previous pitcher. Therefore, if Joe Starter left the game with runners on say first and second and then the reliever John Camelately gives up a home run..the reliever is charged with only ONE run while the starter is charged with the TWO runs. That is the rule in MLB.

Lets say for the sake of argument that the starter left the game with a 2-1 lead.

The reliever comes in with two runners on and gives up the home run. Here is how the runs are charged:

The starter is charge with 3 runs; the previous run PLUS the two runners that were on base when he left;

The reliever is charged with 1 run. The batter that hit the home run.

Moreover, lets say those were the only runs scored for the remainder of the game for either team. That is to say Joe Starter's team lost the game 4-2.

The winning run was the responsibility of the STARTER, not the Reliever and therefore the STARTER is tagged with the loss. At worse, the reliever gets a blown save (depending on when in the game he came in).

It is NOT who is pitching when the winning run is scored necessarily, it is WHO is responsible for the runner who crossed the plate with the eventual winning run.

This is one of the reasons (other than agents wanting to jack up the salary requests for their clients) the 'Inherited Runner' stat has reared its ugly head in the MLB. Because, a reliever can let a tying run, or even a go ahead run score and eventually get the win if his team comes back to win the game. The agents feel that if their client (a reliever) can keep inherited runners from scoring, the pitcher is more valuable and thereby deserves a higher salary.

If I could find my MLB rulebook I could give you page, paragraph, section, subsection that pertains to this instance. But, alas, it is somewhere buried deep in the piles of mags, books, paper, wrappers, dirty plates and such in this computer room. ;)

All the best,
Ken

The starter is charged with the runs, yes, but I BELIEVE the is reliever gets the loss.

[vale]

Originally posted by goyanks225
The starter is charged with the runs, yes, but I BELIEVE the is reliever gets the loss.

Naah, check the official rules in the link above. The starting pitcher will be the loser unless his team can come back to tie it or take the lead at which point he would be off the hook.

[Ken Moore]

Thanks for the link Vale..much appreicated.

Ken

[elgato7664]

If your closer inherited runners left on by the starting pitcher then yes, the starting pitcher should be credited with the loss.

"e) Regardless of how many innings the first pitcher has pitched, he shall be charged with the loss of the game if he is replaced when his team is behind in the score, or falls behind because of runs charged to him after he is replaced, and his team thereafter fails either to tie the score or gain the lead."


So if your closer was replacing a reliever (which I assume was the case) then he does indeed get the loss.

(2) Whenever the score is tied the game becomes a new contest insofar as the winning and losing pitcher is concerned

[Clay Dreslough]

FYI, we THINK we fixed the problem with Earned Runs being occasionally assigned to the wrong pitcher (if there was a pitcher change with men on base).

If you find an example in Version 8.28 or later of this bug still existing, please shoot me an e-mail including the game recap text.

(This also applies to BMO, where it should also be fixed).

Thanks!

Clay

[SkyDog]

If you find an example in Version 8.28 or later of this bug still existing, please shoot me an e-mail including the game recap text.So. when do we get, "or later." ;)

[jjtheindianboy]

Yet, he has a 0.00 era still. He has only played 2 games and allowed these 3 runs in an extra inning game. Here is the inning he pitched from play by play...

TOP OF THE TENTH
Al Jones came in to pitch for the White Sox. <--->
Don Baylor reached first on a throwing error by the third baseman. <--1>
Tony Bernazard laid down a sacrifice bunt to the catcher. <-2->
Carney Lansford singled through the right side. <3-1>
Tim Raines lined out to center field. <3-1>
Chili Davis homered into the right field bleachers for three RBIs. <--->
Gary Carter grounded to second. <--->
3 runs, 2 hits, 1 error, and 0 left on base.
In the middle of the tenth, California leads 10 to 7.

It gave him 0 earned runs, instead of 2 earned runs and 1 unearned. So this should be looked into. I think it messed up because of the first guy on base reached on an error, which it then just said that all the runs scored because of that error...which cant be the case with a home run.

[TheJay]

Might it have something to do with the fact that the inning should have ended after Raines lined out (Baylor, Bernazard and Raines all out) and thus Davis should never have come up and hit the home run? I'm not sure of the exact rules of what constitutes earned and unearned runs but I think if runs score after the inning should have ended they are unearned. Like I said though, I could be wrong :confused:

[jjtheindianboy]

you must have read it wrong. Baylor was never out. He reached 1st on the error. and then Bernazard bunted him to 2nd(1 out). Next Lansford singles. So 2 on and 1 out. Then Raines lines out(2 out). Then a homer by Davis for 3 runs. And the third out was after that, carter grounding to 2nd.

[TheJay]

you must have read it wrong. Baylor was never out. He reached 1st on the error. and then Bernazard bunted him to 2nd(1 out). Next Lansford singles. So 2 on and 1 out. Then Raines lines out(2 out). Then a homer by Davis for 3 runs. And the third out was after that, carter grounding to 2nd.

My point was Baylor should have been out even though he reached on the error. For the purpose of determining earned runs, this would have been the first out of the inning. Bernazard would have been out #2 and Raines would have made the third out. Since the inning would have ended after Raines lined out had the error not been made, Davis (in a perfect fielding world) would never have come up to hit the home run. Therefore the runs scored on the home run are not credited to the pitcher.

[jjtheindianboy]

do we know for sure this is how it is done in the real world, too?

[TheJay]

do we know for sure this is how it is done in the real world, too?

Rule 10.18(a) of the Official Rules (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/official_info/official_rules/official_scorer_10.jsp) on MLB.com:
An earned run shall be charged every time a runner reaches home base by the aid of safe hits, sacrifice bunts, a sacrifice fly, stolen bases, putouts, fielder's choices, bases on balls, hit batters, balks or wild pitches (including a wild pitch on third strike which permits a batter to reach first base) before fielding chances have been offered to put out the offensive team. For the purpose of this rule, a defensive interference penalty shall be construed as a fielding chance.

Since Raines' line out should have been the 3rd out, the runs would be unearned since enough fielding chances were "offered" to put out the offense.

[secho99]

As a baseball scorer, I agree that all 3 runs are definitely unearned in this scenario. Raines' out should have been the 3rd out of the inning, so any runs that score after that are unearned, regardless of whether or not the runners themselves earned their way on. They could've scored 12 runs with 2 outs, and all would have been unearned. As soon as the 3rd out should have been recorded, no run can be earned for the remainder of the half-inning (unless a new pitcher enters the game, which introduces the concept of individual earned runs and team unearned runs into the mix, and that's a whole other matter).

[jjtheindianboy]

ah, i guess it all makes sense. i didnt know a homerun could ever be unearned, but i see your points. I've never seen it happen in a real game. Thanks

[gadorg]

Running Mogul 2007 w/ the 9.14 patch, and have seen this at least twice in boxscores in the last couple of sim weeks:

PITTSBURGH ip h bb hr r er k pit ERA
K. Wells 6.0 11 2 0 5 4 4 108 3.68
J. Grabow 1.0 1 0 0 0 0 1 20 4.30
J. Sharpless 1.0 1 1 1 2 2 1 20 4.26
M. Gonzalez 1.0 1 0 0 1 1 1 20 4.17
TOTALS 9.0 14 3 1 8 7 7 168

WP: S. Williamson (4-2)
LP: J. Grabow (3-5)

How does Grabow get hung with the loss on this one?

[Mortimer]

I do not have the box scores so can not be sure but if wells left the game tied then grabow came in and let is run score and Pittsburg never retook the lead he will have the loss.

what you need to look for is this after 6 innings the score should have been 6 to 6. then in the 7th Grabow gave up a run the it looks like Sharpless gave up 2 runs in the 8th and Gonzalez gave up another in the 9th.

so in baseball terms after wells it was undesided then grabow gave up the last lead change in the 7th so he lost...hope this makes sence. basically the win or loss goes to the pitcher last to have a lead change.

it seems I had the collums mixed up since the did not line up right in your post Gradow gave up no runs...so I am not really sure :/ must be a bug

[SirKodiak]

Use can use the code tags when posting box scores.

For example:



PHILADELPHIA ab h bb r hr bi k sb avg
C. Roberson (RF) 4 3 1 0 0 1 1 0 .300
D. DeJesus (CF) 5 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 .217
C. Utley (2B) 3 1 1 2 0 0 0 0 .286
J. Crede (3B) 4 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 .211
M. Tejada (SS) 4 2 0 1 1 3 0 0 .273
F. Millikin (1B) 4 2 0 0 0 1 0 0 .316
A. Molina (C) 4 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 .200
S. Podsednik (LF) 4 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 .250
R. Halladay (P) 3 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 .167
TOTALS 35 11 3 5 1 5 5 0

2B: A. Molina (3)
3B: C. Roberson (1)
HR: M. Tejada (3)

PHILADELPHIA ip h bb hr r er k pit ERA
R. Halladay 9.0 6 1 0 0 0 9 120 1.00
TOTALS 9.0 6 1 0 0 0 9 120


comes out


PHILADELPHIA ab h bb r hr bi k sb avg
C. Roberson (RF) 4 3 1 0 0 1 1 0 .300
D. DeJesus (CF) 5 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 .217
C. Utley (2B) 3 1 1 2 0 0 0 0 .286
J. Crede (3B) 4 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 .211
M. Tejada (SS) 4 2 0 1 1 3 0 0 .273
F. Millikin (1B) 4 2 0 0 0 1 0 0 .316
A. Molina (C) 4 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 .200
S. Podsednik (LF) 4 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 .250
R. Halladay (P) 3 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 .167
TOTALS 35 11 3 5 1 5 5 0

2B: A. Molina (3)
3B: C. Roberson (1)
HR: M. Tejada (3)

PHILADELPHIA ip h bb hr r er k pit ERA
R. Halladay 9.0 6 1 0 0 0 9 120 1.00
TOTALS 9.0 6 1 0 0 0 9 120

[TheJay]

The only feasible thing I could think of is that Wells walked someone or gave up a hit to start the 7th inning and then Grabow came into the game before Wells recorded an out in the 7th. Grabow then somehow let the run score and it was correctly credited to Wells - however, the game saw Grabow let the run score and incorrectly gave the loss to Grabow as the pitcher who gave up the lead (in the case described, the loss should've gone to Wells because it was his runner that scored the winning run).

[HoustonGM]

The only feasible thing I could think of is that Wells walked someone or gave up a hit to start the 7th inning and then Grabow came into the game before Wells recorded an out in the 7th. Grabow then somehow let the run score and it was correctly credited to Wells - however, the game saw Grabow let the run score and incorrectly gave the loss to Grabow as the pitcher who gave up the lead (in the case described, the loss should've gone to Wells because it was his runner that scored the winning run).
Shouldnt the run still go to Grabow, and the EARNED run to Wells?

[TheJay]

Shouldnt the run still go to Grabow, and the EARNED run to Wells?

MLB Official Rule 10.18(g) (http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/official_info/official_rules/official_scorer_10.jsp)
"(g) When pitchers are changed during an inning, the relief pitcher shall not be charged with any run (earned or unearned) scored by a runner who was on base at the time he entered the game, nor for runs scored by any runner who reaches base on a fielder's choice which puts out a runner left on base by the preceding pitcher."

[HoustonGM]

Ah, thanks.

[SirKodiak]

I've documented this bug in this thread (http://forum.sportsmogul.com/showthread.php?t=104429), I encountered it in BMO, good likelyhood it is same bug. I assume they share code.

[HoustonGM]

LOS ANGELES ip h bb hr r er k pit ERA
E. Santana 8.2 4 5 0 3 3 8 121 4.76
F. Rodriguez 0.0 1 0 0 0 0 0 4 4.20
TOTALS 8.2 5 5 0 3 3 8 125

From recap:

BOTTOM OF THE NINTH
Alex Rodriguez struck out. <--->
Austin Kearns singled through the right side. <--1>
Austin Kearns went for an extra base and reached second. <-2->
Jason Giambi struck out. <-2->
Hideki Matsui was intentionally walked. <-21>
Luis Gonzalez pinch hit for Robinson Cano. <-21>
Luis Gonzalez doubled over the center fielder, scoring a run. <32->
Francisco Rodriguez came in to pitch for the Angels. <32->
Johnny Damon singled to right-center for two RBIs. <--1>

K-Rod gave up two runs, shouldnt he be charged with the runs and ervin santana the earned runs? I may be wrong, so let me know.

[Mach 1]

No, its correct, the two baserunners are on base as a result of Santana, so regardless of how they score they are charged to him. I'd imagine that Rodriguez would be charged with a blown save though.....

[HoustonGM]

Ok, and yeah, he got a blown save, and the loss.

[stickman721]

Ok, and yeah, he got a blown save, and the loss.

He shouldn't have gotten the loss. But that's long been a problem in Mogul; it can't figure out who to give the loss to in these cases.

[HoustonGM]

i thought he should get the loss?

[stickman721]

Not if the losing run isn't assigned to him. Whoever has the responsibility for the winning runner gets the loss. If you let the guy get on base he's your responsibility, therefore you'll get the loss, not the guy who ultimately let him score.

Of course, I notice another issue with the box score you posted. If Rodriguez gave up a homerun, he gave up a run. In your box score he did not give up a run, hence your complaint. In which case, maybe my above statement was wrong, maybe Rodriguez deserved the loss. Not enough information.

[HoustonGM]

Oh, the box score isnt lined up right for some reason. That 1 is a hit.

[stickman721]

D'oh! So Rodriguez let two of Santana's runners score? Then Santana gets the loss and Rodriguez gets the BS. There's no difference between runs and earned runs in this case. They get assigned to the same pitcher no matter what and since there were no errors in the inning both runs were earned.

[HoustonGM]

That is correct. Shouldnt Rodriguez get the loss stil lthough, because he gave up the game winning hit, even though the runs were Santana's fault?

[SirKodiak]

That is correct. Shouldnt Rodriguez get the loss stil lthough, because he gave up the game winning hit, even though the runs were Santana's fault?

No.

LOSS:


A pitcher is charged with the loss of the game if he is replaced when his team is behind in the score, or falls behind because of runs charged to him after he is replaced, and his team thereafter fails either to tie the score or gain the lead, regardless of how many innings he has pitched.


RUN (Pitching Stat)


The total number of runs allowed by the pitcher while he is in the game, as well as runners who reached base against the pitcher and subsequently scored in that inning after the pitcher had left the game.

[HoustonGM]

Onepitch mode play-by-play.

My first hitter, Coco Crisp, doubles. Next, Kevin Youkilis reaches first on a fielding error by the SS and Crisp scores. 1 Earned Run charged to Randy Johnson (which is Correct, right?). Later, Youkilis scores. This is also charged to Johnson, which it shouldn't be, correct?


Or am I completely wrong, and he should get charged with both?

[SirKodiak]

From http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/official_info/official_rules/official_scorer_10.jsp


EARNED RUNS
10.18
An earned run is a run for which the pitcher is held accountable. In determining earned runs, the inning should be reconstructed without the errors (which include catcher's interference) and passed balls, and the benefit of the doubt should always be given to the pitcher in determining which bases would have been reached by errorless play. For the purpose of determining earned runs, an intentional base on balls, regardless of the circumstances, shall be construed in exactly the same manner as any other base on balls. (a) An earned run shall be charged every time a runner reaches home base by the aid of safe hits, sacrifice bunts, a sacrifice fly, stolen bases, putouts, fielder's choices, bases on balls, hit batters, balks or wild pitches (including a wild pitch on third strike which permits a batter to reach first base) before fielding chances have been offered to put out the offensive team. For the purpose of this rule, a defensive interference penalty shall be construed as a fielding chance. (1) A wild pitch is solely the pitcher's fault, and contributes to an earned run just as a base on balls or a balk. (b) No run shall be earned when scored by a runner who reaches first base (1) on a hit or otherwise after his time at bat is prolonged by a muffed foul fly; (2) because of interference or obstruction or (3) because of any fielding error. (c) No run shall be earned when scored by a runner whose life is prolonged by an error, if such runner would have been put out by errorless play. (d) No run shall be earned when the runner's advance is aided by an error, a passed ball, or defensive interference or obstruction, if the scorer judges that the run would not have scored without the aid of such misplay. (e) An error by a pitcher is treated exactly the same as an error by any other fielder in computing earned runs. (f) Whenever a fielding error occurs, the pitcher shall be given the benefit of the doubt in determining to which bases any runners would have advanced had the fielding of the defensive team been errorless. (g) When pitchers are changed during an inning, the relief pitcher shall not be charged with any run (earned or unearned) scored by a runner who was on base at the time he entered the game, nor for runs scored by any runner who reaches base on a fielder's choice which puts out a runner left on base by the preceding pitcher.
NOTE: It is the intent of this rule to charge each pitcher with the number of runners he put on base, rather than with the individual runners. When a pitcher puts runners on base, and is relieved, he shall be charged with all runs subsequently scored up to and including the number of runners he left on base when he left the game, unless such runners are put out without action by the batter, i.e., caught stealing, picked off base, or called out for interference when a batter runner does not reach first base on the play. EXCEPTION: see example 7. EXAMPLES: (1) P1 walks A and is relieved by P2. B grounds out, sending A to second. C flies out. D singles, scoring A. Charge run to P1. (2) P1 walks A and is relieved by P2. B forces A at second. C grounds out, sending B to second. D singles, scoring B. Charge run to P1. (3) P1 walks A and is relieved by P2. B singles, sending A to third. C grounds to short, and A is out at home, B going to second. D flies out. E singles, scoring B. Charge run to P1. (4) P1 walks A and is relieved by P2. B walks. C flies out. A is picked off second. D doubles, scoring B from first. Charge run to P2. (5) P1 walks A and is relieved by P2. P2 walks B and is relieved by P3. C forces A at third. D forces B at third. E hits home run, scoring three runs. Charge one run to P1; one run to P2, one run to P3. (6) P1 walks A, and is relieved by P2, P2 walks B. C singles, filling the bases. D forces A at home. E singles, scoring B and C. Charge one run to P1 and one run to P2. (7) P1 walks A, and is relieved by P2. P2 allows B to single, but A is out trying for third. B takes second on the throw. C singles, scoring B. Charge run to P2. (h) A relief pitcher shall not be held accountable when the first batter to whom he pitches reaches first base on four called balls if such batter has a decided advantage in the ball and strike count when pitchers are changed. (1) If, when pitchers are changed, the count is 2 balls, no strike, 2 balls, 1 strike, 3 balls, no strike, 3 balls, 1 strike, 3 balls, 2 strikes, and the batter gets a base on balls, charge that batter and the base on balls to the preceding pitcher, not to the relief pitcher. (2) Any other action by such batter, such as reaching base on a hit, an error, a fielder's choice, a force out, or being touched by a pitched ball, shall cause such a batter to be charged to the relief pitcher. NOTE: The provisions of 10.18 (h) (2) shall not be construed as affecting or conflicting with the provisions of 10.18 (g). (3) If, when pitchers are changed, the count is 2 balls, 2 strikes, 1 ball, 2 strikes, 1 ball, 1 strike, 1 ball, no strike, no ball, 2 strikes, no ball, 1 strike, charge that batter and his actions to the relief pitcher. (i) When pitchers are changed during an inning, the relief pitcher shall not have the benefit of previous chances for outs not accepted in determining earned runs. NOTE: It is the intent of this rule to charge relief pitchers with earned runs for which they are solely responsible. In some instances, runs charged as earned against the relief pitcher can be charged as unearned against the team. EXAMPLES: (1) With two out, P1 walks A. B reaches base on an error. P2 relieves P1. C hits home run, scoring three runs. Charge two unearned runs to P1, one earned run to P2. (2) With two out, P1 walks A and B and is relieved by P2. C reaches base on an error. D hits home run, scoring four runs. Charge two unearned runs to P1, two unearned runs to P2. (3) With none out, P1 walks A. B reaches base on an error. P2 relieves P1. C hits home run, scoring three runs. D and E strike out. F reaches base on an error. G hits home run, scoring two runs. Charge two runs, one earned, to P1. Charge three runs, one earned, to P2.
So Youkilis' run would be unearned. Crisp's run is earned if he would have scored without the aid of the error, which requires reconstructing the inning, and unearned if he would not have.

[HoustonGM]

Crisp would not have scored if it wasn't for the error. So basically, both runs should be unearned.

Clay, fix this please!

[SirKodiak]

Crisp would not have scored if it wasn't for the error. So basically, both runs should be unearned.

Clay, fix this please!

Could you post that half-inning of the play-by-play?

[HoustonGM]

BOTTOM OF THE FIRST
Randy Johnson takes the mound for the Yankees.
Coco Crisp doubled to right-center. <-2->
Kevin Youkilis reached first on a throwing error by the shortstop - a run scored. <--1>
Manny Ramirez struck out. <--1>
David Ortiz singled in the right field gap, advancing the runner to third. <3-1>
Wily Mo Pena singled down the third base line, scoring a run. <-21> (Scoring Youkilis)
Jason Varitek was hit by a pitch. <321>
Mike Lowell flied out to center. <321>
David Ortiz tagged up and reached home, scoring a run. <-21>
Mark Loretta grounded to the shortstop. <-21>
3 runs, 3 hits, 1 error, and 2 left on base.
At the end of the first, Boston leads 3 to 0.

[SirKodiak]

Crisp would be an earned run, as there were 2 singles after his double and before there was 2 outs + error.

Reconstructed inning
Crisp doubles <-2->
assume an out by Youk with no advance <-2->
K by Ramirez <-2->
Single by Ortiz, assume Crisp advances one base <3-1>
Single by Pena, assume Crisp advances on base and scores <3-1>
Veritek HBP <321>
Lowell flies out to center <321>
Any run scored past here is unearned

Ortiz's run should be unearned as it was after 2 outs + error (any runs that scores after Lowell's out is unearned).

[HoustonGM]

Ok, so one earned run and one unearned would be the correct outcome?

[SirKodiak]

Ok, so one earned run and one unearned would be the correct outcome?

Crisp is earned
Youk is unearned
Ortiz is unearned

[DeViLzzz2006]

I have a screenshot of a situation where my starting pitcher was charged with an earned run when the situation called for an unearned run to be called. J. Judge got a double down the LF line and then O. Tucker reached 1B on a throwing error and a run scored ... that being Judge coming to score all the way from 2nd


I am glad now that I am more comfortable posting problems as I have figured out how to get screenshots and how the uploadin system works .... uhmmm now back to my game ..... hope this bug can be worked out in the future

Sean

funny thing is later on it recognizes that 2 runs during the inning are unearned ....

[Dave141]

In reality, the classification of runs as earned or unearned can't be accurately finalized until the complete results of an inning are known. Perhaps this assessment isn't properly done by the game until the inning is over.

[runthemover]

edit: clay in antoher thread said he's working on it

[learning2fly_24]

nothing to work on this is how an actual 0fficial scored does.

Until the next two outs are made it's no classified as an unearned.
If the next 4 guys go up and hit home runs the only run that's unearned is
the one that got on when the error accured...or happened after there were two outs in the inning.

[DeViLzzz2006]

.... I had looked in a box score and game recap and saw that runs and hits were not recorded after an inning on the game recap and with the box score the pitcher had given up a run but it wasn't listed as earned or unearned ..... I may go back and check other box scores and game recaps but might be easier if anyone else can tell me that they have had experiences like this ... post in this thread

[RAW]

Still having errors occur with scoring.
Wrong losing pitcher is still being credited to pitcher who gives up a winning run hit instead of the pitcher who should be given loss for putting that winning run on base BEFORE the relief pitcher gives up the hit.

In addition, today, in a game I played in PBP mode, the box score showed no earned runs credited to a pitcher who gave up an earned run this affects pitchers ERA, naturally.

I realize this is not major in the overall success of being a Mogul, however, it does affect current statistics as well as a players career stats.

As a stickler for accuracy in scoring and records, I hope these little bugs will be addressed soon.

Otherwise, I am enjoying the game. Hope the next Official update will be available soon.

[ohms_law]

I think that Clay is going to make patch 9.42P official before the end of the week. it's a really good patch.

As for the topic of this thread, i've been looking into these things myself as well. Clay is interested in these problems, so we need to give him details. if you have a game that is a good example, I suggest posting the box score and the game recap for him.
I've been noticing a large amount of unearned run reacently myself. I ment to make a post about it actually, but since you've posted this thread there's no need. We need to nail down what exactly is causing the scoring system to charge runs as unearned vs. earned. It's definately not a PBP mode only problem though.
Runners that score being charged to the relief pitcher vs. the pitcher that put the runner on to begin with (and thereby scoring losses to the wrong pitcher incorrectly) is probably the largest current scoring problem that there is.

[TheNamelessPoet]

I think this is a bug.

[Honus]

Runners that score being charged to the relief pitcher vs. the pitcher that put the runner on to begin with (and thereby scoring losses to the wrong pitcher incorrectly) is probably the largest current scoring problem that there is.


That or runs which are scored and charged to no one at all.

[Clay Dreslough]

After thinking about this for a minute, I realized this "bug" is because its meaningless to have separate Runs Allowed or Earned Runs versus lefties and righties.

If I walk three lefties, then walk a righty, is that run "vs. lefties" or "vs. righties"?

What if walk three lefties then give up a grand slam to righty?

The bug here is that I shouldn't be displaying this data at all. I'm tracking it for major league games, but only by counting the runs scored with a certain batter at the plate which doesn't mean a whole lot IMHO.

Clay

Followup: ESPN has the exact same bug as Baseball Mogul:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?statsId=6134&type=pitching&year=2006

They list Halladay as giving up 54 runs versus righties, but none versus lefties.

I could create my own rules about how to charge runs scored versus righties or lefties (I'd probably base it on who's batting at the time the run scores, instead of the handedness of the runner who scores). But from what I see looking around the web I'm thinking that the best practice is to simply not display R and ER for lefty/righty splits.

[ohms_law]

I've been sitting here stairing at this for about 5 minutes, and have come to the conclusion that I agree with you Clay. Even if you charge the runs against based on the handedness of the current batter then it still doesn't really make much sense.

[SirKodiak]

My intent is to make this a thread about problems in the manager mode. I found these things after playing the first game:

RED: Encarnacion did not get credit for an RBI when Edmonds 'went for an extra base and reached home, scoring a run'.

BLUE: Nelson PH for Carpenter (P) then moved to SS after the third out. Since Bigbie (LF) made the last out in the #1 spot in the batting order, I brought in Taguchi to play LF and bat in the #2 spot formerly held by Eckstein (SS), then brought Reyes in to pitch and hit in the #1 spot. Notice how Nelson is properly a (SS); but Eckstein is marked (LF) and Bigbie is marked as (P) after the 'triple switch'.


New York Mets at St. Louis Cardinals
April 4, 2006

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 + R H E
Mets (NYM) 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 2 8 0
Cardinals (STL) 0 2 3 0 1 0 0 0 x 6 8 0

NEW YORK ab h bb r hr bi k sb avg
J. Reyes (SS) 5 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 .600
C. Beltran (CF) 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000
D. Wright (3B) 4 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 .250
C. Delgado (1B) 3 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 .333
C. Floyd (LF) 4 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 .000
V. Diaz (RF) 4 2 0 0 0 1 1 0 .500
R. Castro (C) 4 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 .000
K. Matsui (2B) 4 1 0 1 1 1 2 0 .250
P. Martinez (P) 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000
S. Trachsel (P) 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 .000
B. Harper (PH) 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000
J. Maine (P) 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000
J. Keppinger (PH) 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000
TOTALS 35 8 2 2 1 2 8 0

2B: C. Delgado (1), J. Reyes (1), V. Diaz (1)
HR: K. Matsui (1)

NEW YORK ip h bb hr r er k pit ERA
P. Martinez 2.2 5 2 0 5 5 1 58 16.88
S. Trachsel 3.1 3 2 0 1 1 2 57 2.70
J. Maine 2.0 0 0 0 0 0 0 19 0.00
TOTALS 8.0 8 4 0 6 6 3 134

ST. LOUIS ab h bb r hr bi k sb avg
L. Bigbie (P) 3 1 1 1 0 0 0 2 .333
A. Reyes (P) 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000
D. Eckstein (LF) 4 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 .000
S. Taguchi (LF) 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000
A. Pujols (1B) 4 1 0 1 0 1 0 0 .250
J. Edmonds (CF) 3 2 1 3 0 0 0 0 .667
S. Rolen (3B) 4 2 0 0 0 2 0 0 .500
J. Encarnacion (RF) 4 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 .250
Y. Molina (C) 3 1 1 0 0 1 0 0 .333
A. Miles (2B) 3 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 .000
C. Carpenter (P) 3 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 .000
J. Nelson (SS) 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000
TOTALS 32 8 4 6 0 5 3 2

2B: S. Rolen (1), J. Edmonds (1)

ST. LOUIS ip h bb hr r er k pit ERA
C. Carpenter 8.0 8 2 1 2 2 7 117 2.25
A. Reyes 1.0 0 0 0 0 0 1 11 0.00
TOTALS 9.0 8 2 1 2 2 8 128

WP: C. Carpenter (1-0)
LP: P. Martinez (0-1)

Temperature: 52F
Wind: 9 MPH (left to right)
Attendance: 46,500
Time: 2:54



New York Mets at St. Louis Cardinals
April 4, 2006

TOP OF THE FIRST
Chris Carpenter takes the mound for the Cardinals.
Jose Reyes doubled to left-center. <-2->
Carlos Beltran flied out to left. <-2->
David Wright lined out to center. <-2->
Carlos Delgado was intentionally walked. <-21>
Cliff Floyd grounded to second. <-21>
0 runs, 1 hit, 0 errors, and 2 left on base.
In the middle of the first, the game is tied at 0.

BOTTOM OF THE FIRST
Pedro Martinez takes the mound for the Mets.
Larry Bigbie grounded to second. <--->
David Eckstein grounded to the third baseman. <--->
Albert Pujols grounded to third. <--->
0 runs, 0 hits, 0 errors, and 0 left on base.
At the end of the first, the game is tied at 0.

TOP OF THE SECOND
Victor Diaz singled to left. <--1>
Ramon Castro struck out. <--1>
Kazuo Matsui grounded to second, forcing the runner at second. <--1>
Pedro Martinez grounded to short. <--1>
0 runs, 1 hit, 0 errors, and 1 left on base.
In the middle of the second, the game is tied at 0.

BOTTOM OF THE SECOND
Jim Edmonds walked. <--1>
Scott Rolen grounded to second. <-2->
Juan Encarnacion singled through the right side. <3-1>
Jim Edmonds went for an extra base and reached home, scoring a run. <--1>
Yadier Molina singled to center field, advancing the runner to third. <3-1>
Aaron Miles grounded to second, scoring a run. <-2->
Chris Carpenter struck out. <-2->
2 runs, 2 hits, 0 errors, and 1 left on base.
At the end of the second, St. Louis leads 2 to 0.

TOP OF THE THIRD
Jose Reyes popped up to second. <--->
Carlos Beltran grounded to the shortstop. <--->
David Wright grounded to third. <--->
0 runs, 0 hits, 0 errors, and 0 left on base.
In the middle of the third, New York trails 2 to 0.

BOTTOM OF THE THIRD
Larry Bigbie walked. <--1>
David Eckstein grounded to first base. <-2->
Albert Pujols singled to right, scoring a run. <--1>
Jim Edmonds doubled to right. <32->
Scott Rolen doubled down the left field line for two RBIs. <-2->
Juan Encarnacion popped up to second. <-2->
Steve Trachsel came in to pitch for the Mets. <-2->
Yadier Molina walked. <-21>
Aaron Miles grounded to the pitcher. <-21>
3 runs, 3 hits, 0 errors, and 2 left on base.
At the end of the third, St. Louis leads 5 to 0.

TOP OF THE FOURTH
Carlos Delgado doubled in the right field gap. <-2->
Cliff Floyd struck out. <-2->
Victor Diaz struck out. <-2->
Ramon Castro popped up foul down the third base line. <-2->
0 runs, 1 hit, 0 errors, and 1 left on base.
In the middle of the fourth, New York trails 5 to 0.

BOTTOM OF THE FOURTH
Chris Carpenter struck out. <--->
Larry Bigbie was hit by a pitch. <--1>
Larry Bigbie stole second. <-2->
David Eckstein grounded to first. <-2->
Albert Pujols popped up foul down the third base line. <-2->
0 runs, 0 hits, 0 errors, and 1 left on base.
At the end of the fourth, St. Louis leads 5 to 0.

TOP OF THE FIFTH
Kazuo Matsui homered over the left field fence. <--->
Steve Trachsel walked. <--1>
Jose Reyes bunts for a base hit to the third baseman. <-21>
Carlos Beltran grounded to the second baseman, forcing the runner at third. <-21>
David Wright struck out. <-21>
Carlos Delgado grounded to short. <-21>
1 run, 2 hits, 0 errors, and 2 left on base.
In the middle of the fifth, New York trails 5 to 1.

BOTTOM OF THE FIFTH
Jim Edmonds singled to right field. <--1>
Scott Rolen hit an infield single to second. <-21>
Juan Encarnacion grounded to the pitcher, forcing the runner at second. <3-1>
Yadier Molina grounded to short, scoring a run. <-2->
Aaron Miles walked. <-21>
Chris Carpenter flied out to right field. <-21>
1 run, 2 hits, 0 errors, and 2 left on base.
At the end of the fifth, St. Louis leads 6 to 1.

TOP OF THE SIXTH
Cliff Floyd popped up to short. <--->
Victor Diaz popped up behind home plate. <--->
Ramon Castro lined out to right. <--->
0 runs, 0 hits, 0 errors, and 0 left on base.
In the middle of the sixth, New York trails 6 to 1.

BOTTOM OF THE SIXTH
Larry Bigbie singled to center. <--1>
Larry Bigbie stole second. <-2->
David Eckstein struck out. <-2->
Albert Pujols grounded to short. The runner was tagged out at third. <--1>
Jim Edmonds lined out to center field. <--1>
0 runs, 1 hit, 0 errors, and 1 left on base.
At the end of the sixth, St. Louis leads 6 to 1.

TOP OF THE SEVENTH
Kazuo Matsui struck out. <--->
Brett Harper pinch hit for Steve Trachsel. <--->
Brett Harper grounded to the pitcher. <--->
Jose Reyes singled to left field. <--1>
Carlos Beltran grounded to first. <--1>
0 runs, 1 hit, 0 errors, and 1 left on base.
In the middle of the seventh, New York trails 6 to 1.

BOTTOM OF THE SEVENTH
John Maine came in to pitch for the Mets. <--->
Scott Rolen grounded to short. <--->
Juan Encarnacion grounded to second. <--->
Yadier Molina flied out to right field. <--->
0 runs, 0 hits, 0 errors, and 0 left on base.
At the end of the seventh, St. Louis leads 6 to 1.

TOP OF THE EIGHTH
David Wright singled up the middle. <--1>
Carlos Delgado struck out. <--1>
Cliff Floyd struck out. <--1>
Victor Diaz doubled in the right field gap, scoring a run. <-2->
Ramon Castro popped up to the second baseman. <-2->
1 run, 2 hits, 0 errors, and 1 left on base.
In the middle of the eighth, New York trails 6 to 2.

BOTTOM OF THE EIGHTH
Aaron Miles grounded to the shortstop. <--->
John Nelson pinch hit for Chris Carpenter. <--->
John Nelson grounded to first. <--->
Larry Bigbie grounded to second. <--->
0 runs, 0 hits, 0 errors, and 0 left on base.
At the end of the eighth, St. Louis leads 6 to 2.

TOP OF THE NINTH
So Taguchi came in to play Left Field. <--->
Al Reyes came in to pitch for the Cardinals. <--->
Kazuo Matsui struck out. <--->
Jeff Keppinger pinch hit for John Maine. <--->
Jeff Keppinger grounded to the third baseman. <--->
Jose Reyes popped up behind home plate. <--->

CARDINALS WIN: 6-2


I checked the 'scouting report' after this game:

Encarnacion did not get credit for an RBI; and
Nelson is listed as having played one game, one inning, at P (though he was at SS as the box score shows).

[HoustonGM]

I checked the 'scouting report' after this game:

Encarnacion did not get credit for an RBI; and
Nelson is listed as having played one game, one inning, at P (though he was at SS as the box score shows).

The fielding game thing is a bug I've reported before. When you pinch hit for the pitcher, that player gets a game played at pitcher. Same thing goes for anybody else. If I pinch hit for a LF with a SS, and then before I throw a pitch the next inning replace the pinch hitter with an outfielder, the SS gets a game played at LF.

[SirKodiak]

I believe I recreated the problem where no pitcher is charged with a run that scored: :)

Coffey came in to pitch the 9th. Bigbie PH for the P, tripled, and later scored. Luna, who had singled Bigbie home, later scored on a Pujols double.

Before the beginning of the next half inning (before bottom of the ninth), I used the double switch and put Bigbie in LF and the new pitcher in the batting spot of the former LF.

As seen below, Coffey is only charged with 1 run (when it should be 2) and Cincinnati pitchers are only charged with 3 runs (when it should be 4). I believe (as I did in Honus' post in another thread) that the missing run is due to the fact that the player who pinch hit (Bigbie) scored, and later came into the game to play a position in a double switch. I have not yet tested it to see if the problem occurs if the double switch doesn't occur (just the pinch hit).


St. Louis Cardinals at Cincinnati Reds
April 9, 2006

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 + R H E
Cardinals (STL) 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 2 4 12 0
Reds (CIN) 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 2 7 1

ST. LOUIS ab h bb r hr bi k sb avg
H. Luna (2B) 5 1 0 1 0 1 1 1 .143
D. Eckstein (SS) 3 3 0 1 0 0 0 0 .263
B. Daubach (PH) 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000
J. Nelson (SS) 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000
A. Pujols (1B) 5 2 0 0 0 1 1 0 .316
S. Rolen (3B) 5 2 0 1 1 1 2 0 .400
J. Edmonds (CF) 3 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 .471
J. Encarnacion (RF) 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .111
Y. Molina (C) 4 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 .111
S. Taguchi (P) 3 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 .333
J. Isringhausen (P) 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000
C. Carpenter (P) 3 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 .333
L. Bigbie (LF) 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 .500
TOTALS 37 12 2 4 1 4 6 1

2B: A. Pujols (2), D. Eckstein (1)
3B: L. Bigbie (1)
HR: S. Rolen (3)

ST. LOUIS ip h bb hr r er k pit ERA
C. Carpenter 8.0 7 2 1 2 2 6 105 2.25
J. Isringhausen 1.0 0 0 0 0 0 0 16 0.00
TOTALS 9.0 7 2 1 2 2 6 121

CINCINNATI ab h bb r hr bi k sb avg
T. Womack (2B) 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .154
F. Lopez (SS) 4 1 0 0 0 1 2 0 .308
K. Griffey (CF) 4 2 0 0 0 0 1 0 .471
A. Dunn (LF) 3 1 1 1 1 1 0 0 .267
A. Kearns (RF) 3 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 .286
J. Valentin (C) 4 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 .182
T. Chapman (3B) 3 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 .200
R. Freel (3B) 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000
S. Hatteberg (1B) 3 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 .231
E. Milton (P) 3 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 .333
T. Coffey (P) 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000
TOTALS 32 7 2 2 1 2 6 0

HR: A. Dunn (2)

CINCINNATI ip h bb hr r er k pit ERA
E. Milton 8.0 9 2 1 2 2 6 121 2.25
T. Coffey 1.0 3 0 0 1 1 0 17 10.38
TOTALS 9.0 12 2 1 3 3 6 138

WP: C. Carpenter (2-0)
LP: T. Coffey (1-2)
SV: J. Isringhausen (1)

Temperature: 60F
Wind: 4 MPH (left to right)
Attendance: 26,971
Time: 2:28


St. Louis Cardinals at Cincinnati Reds
April 9, 2006

TOP OF THE NINTH
Todd Coffey came in to pitch for the Reds. <--->
So Taguchi grounded to third. <--->
The Reds guarded the lines.
Larry Bigbie pinch hit for Chris Carpenter. <--->
Larry Bigbie doubled in the right field gap. <-2->
Larry Bigbie went for an extra base and reached third. <3-->
The Reds brought the infield in.
Hector Luna singled over the first baseman, scoring a run. <--1>
Hector Luna stole second. <-2->
John Nelson popped up to the second baseman. <-2->
Albert Pujols doubled down the right field line, scoring a run. <-2->
Scott Rolen grounded to short. <-2->
2 runs, 3 hits, 0 errors, and 1 left on base.
In the middle of the ninth, St. Louis leads 4 to 2.

BOTTOM OF THE NINTH
Jason Isringhausen came in to pitch for the Cardinals. <--->
Austin Kearns grounded to short. <--->
Javier Valentin grounded to second. <--->
Ryan Freel grounded to second. <--->

CARDINALS WIN: 4-2

And it is not just a box score problem. the runs did not show up in the scouting report log (totals for last 4 games and season are both off that run/earned run) :

4645

I did forget to keep track of Coffey's totals in the pitcher's box of the play-by-play screen to see if he was charged with the run and then the double switch erased it, though. :( So it is possible he was never charged with it.

[ohms_law]

hey, good work SirKodiak!
:)

[SirKodiak]

I am glad I tested the 'no pitcher charged with run that scored' error for just pinch hitters. It seems that with any pinch hitter that scores, the pitcher is not credited with the run(s).

In the 8th, pinch hitter Bigbie singled and eventually scored, then went in to play left field (no double switch, just replaced Taguchi). A run should be charged to Coffey, but no run was ever charged to Coffey, even before the inning was over, as the screenshot below shows.

In the 9th, pinch hitter Cruz walked with the bases loaded and scored on Bigbie's grand slam. Shackleford should have 5 runs charged to him, but only 4 were.

Run total 6 for Cincinnati pitchers, 8 for St. Louis batters.


St. Louis Cardinals at Cincinnati Reds
April 10, 2006

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 + R H E
Cardinals (STL) 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 2 5 8 12 0
Reds (CIN) 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 8 0

ST. LOUIS ab h bb r hr bi k sb avg
H. Luna (2B) 5 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 .158
D. Eckstein (SS) 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .227
B. Daubach (PH) 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 .500
J. Nelson (SS) 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000
A. Pujols (1B) 4 3 1 1 0 0 0 0 .391
S. Rolen (3B) 4 0 1 1 0 0 2 0 .333
J. Edmonds (CF) 3 1 1 2 0 0 1 0 .450
J. Encarnacion (RF) 5 2 0 0 0 0 1 0 .174
Y. Molina (C) 4 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 .091
D. Cruz (C) 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1.000
S. Taguchi (LF) 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .250
L. Bigbie (LF) 2 2 0 2 1 5 0 1 .600
M. Mulder (P) 2 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 .000
A. Miles (P) 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 .250
A. Reyes (P) 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000
K. Shoppach (P) 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 .600
R. Rincon (P) 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000
TOTALS 38 12 5 8 1 8 7 1

2B: A. Pujols 2 (4), J. Edmonds (4), K. Shoppach (1)
HR: L. Bigbie (2)

ST. LOUIS ip h bb hr r er k pit ERA
M. Mulder 7.0 8 3 0 1 1 5 113 1.76
A. Reyes 1.0 0 0 0 0 0 0 15 2.45
R. Rincon 1.0 0 0 0 0 0 2 16 27.00
TOTALS 9.0 8 3 0 1 1 7 144

CINCINNATI ab h bb r hr bi k sb avg
R. Freel (2B) 5 1 0 0 0 0 2 0 .077
F. Lopez (SS) 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .222
K. Griffey (CF) 4 2 1 0 0 0 1 0 .476
A. Dunn (LF) 2 0 2 0 0 0 2 0 .235
A. Kearns (RF) 4 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 .222
T. Chapman (3B) 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .158
J. LaRue (C) 4 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 .143
S. Hatteberg (1B) 4 3 0 1 0 0 0 0 .353
B. Rose (P) 3 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 .333
T. Coffey (P) 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000
B. Shackelford (P) 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000
D. Williams (P) 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000
R. Stratton (PH) 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .333
TOTALS 35 8 3 1 0 1 7 0

2B: K. Griffey (1), B. Rose (1)

CINCINNATI ip h bb hr r er k pit ERA
B. Rose 7.0 7 4 0 2 2 6 127 2.57
T. Coffey 1.0 2 0 0 0 0 0 10 8.44
B. Shackelford 0.2 2 1 1 4 4 1 27 30.86
D. Williams 0.1 1 0 0 0 0 0 6 6.23
TOTALS 9.0 12 5 1 6 6 7 170

WP: M. Mulder (1-0)
LP: T. Coffey (1-3)

Temperature: 57F
Wind: 4 MPH (in from left)
Attendance: 26,606
Time: 3:10


St. Louis Cardinals at Cincinnati Reds
April 10, 2006

TOP OF THE EIGHTH
Jim Edmonds doubled down the right field line. <-2->
Todd Coffey came in to pitch for the Reds. <-2->
Juan Encarnacion grounded to second. <3-->
The Reds brought the infield in.
Yadier Molina grounded to third. <3-->
Larry Bigbie pinch hit for So Taguchi. <3-->
Larry Bigbie singled to right, scoring a run. <--1>
Larry Bigbie stole second. <-2->
Aaron Miles pinch hit for Mark Mulder. <-2->
Aaron Miles singled through the left side, scoring a run. <--1>
Hector Luna popped up to the catcher in foul ground. <--1>
2 runs, 3 hits, 0 errors, and 1 left on base.
In the middle of the eighth, St. Louis leads 3 to 1.

BOTTOM OF THE EIGHTH
Al Reyes came in to pitch for the Cardinals. <--->
Travis Chapman flied out to center. <--->
Jason LaRue grounded to the third baseman. <--->
Scott Hatteberg grounded to third. <--->
0 runs, 0 hits, 0 errors, and 0 left on base.
At the end of the eighth, Cincinnati trails 3 to 1.

TOP OF THE NINTH
Brian Shackelford came in to pitch for the Reds. <--->
John Nelson was hit by a pitch. <--1>
Albert Pujols doubled down the third base line. <32->
Scott Rolen grounded to second. The lead runner was tagged out at home. <3-1>
Jim Edmonds was hit by a pitch. <321>
Juan Encarnacion struck out. <321>
Deivi Cruz pinch hit for Yadier Molina. <321>
Deivi Cruz walked, scoring a run. <321>
Larry Bigbie homered over the left field fence for a grand slam. <--->
Dave Williams came in to pitch for the Reds. <--->
Kelly Shoppach pinch hit for Al Reyes. <--->
Kelly Shoppach doubled down the first base line. <-2->
Hector Luna flied out to center field. <-2->
5 runs, 3 hits, 0 errors, and 1 left on base.
In the middle of the ninth, St. Louis leads 8 to 1.

BOTTOM OF THE NINTH
Rob Stratton pinch hit for Dave Williams. <--->
Ricardo Rincon came in to pitch for the Cardinals. <--->
Rob Stratton was hit by a pitch. <--1>
Ryan Freel struck out. <--1>
Felipe Lopez popped up behind home plate. <--1>
Ken Griffey struck out. <--1>

CARDINALS WIN: 8-1


4650

Also of note, Coffey did get the loss, as he should have, even though he was not given credit for allowing a run. So it looks like whatever tracks the pitcher of record did work.


The fielding game thing is a bug I've reported before. When you pinch hit for the pitcher, that player gets a game played at pitcher. Same thing goes for anybody else. If I pinch hit for a LF with a SS, and then before I throw a pitch the next inning replace the pinch hitter with an outfielder, the SS gets a game played at LF.
Is the 'batter did not get credit for an RBI when runner 'went for an extra base and reached home, scoring a run' a new one, or was it in your bug post?

[HoustonGM]

Is the 'batter did not get credit for an RBI when runner 'went for an extra base and reached home, scoring a run' a new one, or was it in your bug post?
That's a new one.

[SirKodiak]

Cool, thanks

I checked to see if pinch runners that score are counted against the pitcher, and at least from this game it appears they are:

In Reitsma's only inning, Gorecki pinch ran for Shoppach, and scored on Daubach's pinch hit single. Reitsma is charged in box score and was immediately charged on the play-by-play screen.



St. Louis Cardinals at Atlanta Braves
April 24, 2006

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 + R H E
Cardinals (STL) 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 5 7 0
Braves (ATL) 0 1 0 0 2 0 0 0 1 4 5 0

ST. LOUIS ab h bb r hr bi k sb avg
J. Reed (CF) 3 1 1 1 0 0 0 1 .194
L. Bigbie (LF) 3 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 .333
A. Pujols (1B) 4 1 0 1 0 1 0 0 .362
S. Rolen (3B) 4 1 0 1 1 3 0 0 .324
J. Encarnacion (RF) 3 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 .235
H. Luna (RF) 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 .220
K. Shoppach (C) 4 2 0 0 0 0 2 0 .269
R. Gorecki (C) 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 .167
R. Martin (C) 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .167
A. Miles (2B) 4 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 .195
D. Eckstein (SS) 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .246
B. Daubach (SS) 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 .333
J. Nelson (SS) 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000
A. Reyes (P) 3 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 .000
R. Flores (P) 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000
A. Reyes (P) 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000
D. Cruz (P) 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .333
J. Isringhausen (P) 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000
TOTALS 34 7 2 5 1 5 6 2

2B: K. Shoppach (2), J. Reed (2)
HR: S. Rolen (8)

ST. LOUIS ip h bb hr r er k pit ERA
A. Reyes 7.0 4 1 2 3 3 3 98 6.17
R. Flores 0.1 0 1 0 0 0 0 8 1.93
A. Reyes 0.2 0 0 0 0 0 1 11 7.59
J. Isringhausen 1.0 1 2 0 0 0 1 28 3.60
TOTALS 9.0 5 4 2 3 3 5 145

ATLANTA ab h bb r hr bi k sb avg
M. Giles (2B) 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .282
E. Renteria (SS) 4 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 .301
C. Jones (3B) 3 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 .200
A. Jones (CF) 3 1 1 1 1 1 1 0 .343
J. Francoeur (RF) 3 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 .250
B. McCann (C) 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .200
W. Betemit (1B) 3 2 0 1 0 0 0 0 .462
B. McCarthy (PH) 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 .235
K. Johnson (LF) 2 1 1 1 1 2 0 0 .300
A. LaRoche (PH) 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .186
K. Davies (P) 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000
R. Langerhans (PH) 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .309
M. Hampton (P) 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000
C. Reitsma (P) 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000
TOTALS 30 5 4 4 2 4 5 0

2B: W. Betemit (1)
HR: A. Jones (4), K. Johnson (1)

ATLANTA ip h bb hr r er k pit ERA
K. Davies 3.0 3 2 1 4 4 3 60 4.70
M. Hampton 5.0 2 0 0 0 0 2 52 2.38
C. Reitsma 1.0 2 0 0 1 1 1 13 4.15
TOTALS 9.0 7 2 1 5 5 6 125

WP: A. Reyes (1-1)
LP: K. Davies (0-1)
SV: J. Isringhausen (4)

Temperature: 70F
Wind: Calm
Attendance: 40,471
Time: 2:49




St. Louis Cardinals at Atlanta Braves
April 24, 2006

TOP OF THE NINTH
Chris Reitsma came in to pitch for the Braves. <--->
Hector Luna struck out. <--->
Kelly Shoppach singled through the left side. <--1>
Reid Gorecki pinch ran for Kelly Shoppach. <--1>
Reid Gorecki stole second. <-2->
Aaron Miles lined out to the second baseman. <-2->
Brian Daubach pinch hit for David Eckstein. <-2->
Brian Daubach singled to center, scoring a run. <--1>
Deivi Cruz pinch hit for Al Reyes. <--1>
Deivi Cruz grounded to second. <--1>
1 run, 2 hits, 0 errors, and 1 left on base.
In the middle of the ninth, St. Louis leads 5 to 3.


4673

Just wanted to keep this one alive and invite anyone who is posting a bug from Manager (one-pitch) mode to post here as well as in its own post.

[Mach 1]

Having this problem as well (ph runs/rbis not charged to opposing pitcher). My team hit 2 pinch hit home runs in the bottom of the 9th, (lost the game 3-2) and the headlines were "Solons Park hosts Hochheiser's 3-2 Shutout" (too lazy to post screenshot)....

a snip of the box score:



VANCOUVER ip h bb hr r er k pit ERA
D. Hochheiser 9.0 2 0 2 0 0 8 111 2.34
TOTALS 9.0 2 0 2 0 0 8 111

SACRAMENTO ab h bb r hr bi k sb avg
R. Coleman (CF) 4 0 0 0 0 0 3 0 .250
J. Stockton (LF) 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .250
T. Potts (3B) 4 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 .293
R. Boedo (SS) 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .333
S. Taggart (SS) 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .357
M. Tuholski (1B) 2 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 .290
D. Pham (C) 2 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 .354
E. Crawford (C) 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .222
S. Larraneta (RF) 3 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 .272
P. Roberts (2B) 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .227
A. Watson (PH) 1 1 0 1 1 1 0 0 .313
L. Dergun (P) 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 .500
G. Colburn (P) 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .228
D. Dunne (P) 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000
J. Bouskila (P) 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000
K. Sinclair (PH) 1 1 0 1 1 1 0 0 .178
TOTALS 29 2 0 2 2 2 8 0

[SirKodiak]

from http://forum.sportsmogul.com/showthread.php?t=117250
It expands on the "Do you wish to send the runner home?" RBI bug above.

Anytime I get the message "Do you wish to send the runner home?" and I choose yes, if that runner scores, then the person who had the hit does not get credit for an RBI. Doesn't matter whether it's a single with a runner on second, double with a runner on first, and it also does it with Inside the park HR's. He will get credit for a HR but no RBI. I will try to find a game that this happened in and post the boxscore, but that's the best I know how to do.

[Brewersfan]

I don't know if this has been reported before but I've noticed errors aren't being added to the box score in one pitch mode. For example if you committ 3 errors in one inning the box score will list runs, hits and always no errors.

[SirKodiak]

I don't know if this has been reported before but I've noticed errors aren't being added to the box score in one pitch mode. For example if you committ 3 errors in one inning the box score will list runs, hits and always no errors.
Could you post a complete box score and play-by-play game recap of one game where this happened as an example, please? Box scores works best if you put them in between
tags.

[Brewersfan]

I'll try it when I get home grom work. I've never been able to make a screenshot, but I just finished reading your instructions and I think I should be able to figure it out.

[ohms_law]

for box scores and game recaps, there's no need for a screenshot. after the game you can click on the day of the game in the calendar screen to pull up the box score or game recap in notepad. Copy and paste each of those into a post in reply here, being sure to surround the boxs score/recap with
tags.

[Brewersfan]

OK here it is. note the fielding error on the catcher in the bottom of the eigth.

Milwaukee Brewers at Los Angeles Dodgers
October 6, 2002

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 + R H E
Brewers (MIL) 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 7 0
Dodgers (LAD) 0 1 0 1 0 2 0 0 x 4 7 0

MILWAUKEE ab h bb r hr bi k sb avg
A. Nunez (2B) 3 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 .348
J. Kendall (C) 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .342
J. Davanon (CF) 3 2 1 1 0 0 0 1 .358
B. Hall (SS) 4 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 .299
J. Rollins (3B) 4 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 .319
T. Raines (LF) 4 1 0 0 0 1 0 2 .271
M. Vento (RF) 4 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 .271
J. Phelps (1B) 3 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 .254
S. Ponson (P) 2 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 .187
J. Wilson (P) 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .267
K. Davis (P) 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000
TOTALS 32 7 2 1 0 1 3 3


MILWAUKEE ip h bb hr r er k pit ERA
S. Ponson 6.0 6 3 0 4 4 4 114 3.53
K. Davis 2.0 1 0 0 0 0 3 38 2.45
TOTALS 8.0 7 3 0 4 4 7 152

LOS ANGELES ab h bb r hr bi k sb avg
R. Cedeno (RF) 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .305
J. Lugo (SS) 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .301
C. Everett (CF) 4 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 .305
B. Giles (LF) 4 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 .323
F. Tatis (3B) 3 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 .309
D. Lee (1B) 2 1 1 3 0 0 0 0 .261
R. Hernandez (C) 2 2 0 0 0 2 0 0 .250
P. Burrell (PH) 1 1 0 0 0 2 0 0 .258
M. Figga (C) 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 .258
P. Reese (2B) 2 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 .295
M. Redman (P) 3 0 0 0 0 0 3 0 .130
J. Romero (P) 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000
TOTALS 30 7 3 4 0 4 7 0

2B: R. Hernandez 2, B. Giles, C. Everett, P. Burrell

LOS ANGELES ip h bb hr r er k pit ERA
M. Redman 8.0 7 2 0 1 1 2 106 2.12
J. Romero 1.0 0 0 0 0 0 1 11 2.93
TOTALS 9.0 7 2 0 1 1 3 117

WP: M. Redman
LP: S. Ponson
SV: J. Romero

Temperature: 59F
Wind: 7 MPH (right to left)
Attendance: 56,000
Time: 2:33

The above is just one example. Another thing I've noticed is that when there's a man on third, the computer will bring if in and on every groundball the runner is thrown out at home. EVERY TIME. With no outs bottom of the 9th why is the runner trying to score on weak dribbler to pitch or 1st base. Maybe my 3rd base coach is just a *****. who knows

[SirKodiak]

Ok, thanks, definitely a bug. I wonder the scope of the bug.

Was he credited with it in his Scouting Report? Also, does it affect the ER totals? (no runs were scored in that inning so can't tell from this example)

[RAW]

SirKodiak - In the PBP you posted, it looks like the pitcher who gave up the double to Edmonds, who scored the go ahead run, should be credited with the loss, not Coffey, even though he gave up the hit that scored the go ahead run that put the Cards up 2-1, a lead they never gave up. Coffey should be credited with one earned run, the one that put the Cards up 3-1, the first run is charged to the pitcher who put Edmonds on base, and, consequently should be the losing pitcher.

[SirKodiak]

SirKodiak - In the PBP you posted, it looks like the pitcher who gave up the double to Edmonds, who scored the go ahead run, should be credited with the loss, not Coffey, even though he gave up the hit that scored the go ahead run that put the Cards up 2-1, a lead they never gave up. Coffey should be credited with one earned run, the one that put the Cards up 3-1, the first run is charged to the pitcher who put Edmonds on base, and, consequently should be the losing pitcher.

In post #7, Rose should have got the loss, not Coffey, as he put Edmonds on. Good catch! :) The run was properly charged to Rose, just not the loss.

[Clay Dreslough]

I'm about to post Version 9.44 and it doesn't yet fix the scoring issues in this thread. However, this thread has been very useful, and these are first on my list for the next patch.

Thanks!

Clay

[Brewersfan]

Ok, thanks, definitely a bug. I wonder the scope of the bug.

Was he credited with it in his Scouting Report? Also, does it affect the ER totals? (no runs were scored in that inning so can't tell from this example)
Those are intersting questions I'll look into them when I have a chance. I only play one pitch mode in the playoffs, so I was kinda surprised this wasn't reported before.

[RAW]

Bottom of the 9th, score tied. Phillies, the visitors put James Hurst in to pitch. He loads the bases and Jason Iseringham comes in to pitch and gives up a hit (a single to center). Not only was Isseringham given the loss incorrectly even though the earned run(s) were credited to Hurst, the Expos were given TWO runs and the final score was listed as 6-4. WRONG!
Hurst should have only been given one earned run against his record and the final score should be 5-4.
PLEASE DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS PROBLEM. IT REALLY BUGS ME. I know it really has no baring on the standings, little affect on Hurst's ERA and cost Issie a loss, but it really is a problem.

[ohms_law]

http://forum.sportsmogul.com/showthread.php?p=595955#post595955

I'm about to post Version 9.44 and it doesn't yet fix the scoring issues in this thread. However, this thread has been very useful, and these are first on my list for the next patch.

Thanks!

Clay

Patience.

[SirKodiak]

It would be really helpful if you used your thread title to briefly describe the problem, rather than vent your frustration. "Well, it happened again" and titles like it are much more likely to be not read by Clay than one with a descriptive title. If you read my 'How to File a Good Bug Report', you'll see where Clay mentions that. I understand your frustration, but please put it in the text of the post if you must vent it, or even better, in Baseball Mogul: General Discussion.

[DeViLzzz2006]

There aren't many messages really on here that are recent and if I saw a msg like this I knew it would possibly be about a bug but yeah it should be made more clear .....

[ohms_law]

This is a bug reporting forum, not a general discussion forum. Venting frustrations about bugs, general Chit-chat, and requests for features or enhancements to the game should be in the appropriate forum.
There should be relatively lower traffic on this sub-forum.

[SirKodiak]

Hit and run, runners first and third no out, if batter strikes out swinging, runner at third tries to steal home.
more info at http://forum.sportsmogul.com/showthread.php?t=118530

[pacers7isback]

This was just a normal simmed game, Randy Johnson should've been scored with 3 ER, 4 R, but this just gave him 4 R.


BOTTOM OF THE FIRST
Randy Johnson takes the mound for the Bisons.
Chris Denorfia reached first on a throwing error by the shortstop. <--1>
Chris Snelling singled to right, advancing the runner to third. <3-1>
Val Majewski lined out to short. <3-1>
Chipper Jones lined out to center. <3-1>
Trot Nixon doubled down the left field line for two RBIs. <-2->
Lance Niekro hit an infield single to third. <3-1>
Alex Cintron doubled down the left field line for two RBIs. <-2->
Miguel Cairo struck out. <-2->
4 runs, 4 hits, 1 error, and 1 left on base.
At the end of the first, Chicago leads 4 to 0.

[ohms_law]

ok, lets see here...


Chris Denorfia reached first on a throwing error by the shortstop.
so, he's unearned no matter what happens...


Chris Snelling singled to right, advancing the runner to third.
he's an earned run so far.


Trot Nixon doubled down the left field line for two RBIs. <-2->
Lance Niekro hit an infield single to third. <3-1>
Alex Cintron doubled down the left field line for two RBIs. <-2->

looks like your right. all of these are earned runs, from what I can tell...

I beleave that this is fixed already though (in 9.44B). Hang on one minute.

[SirKodiak]

Any run that scores after Chipper Jones makes his out is unearned, as he would have been the third out. So all runs should be unearned.

[ohms_law]

ah hah! right... dangit, i missed that.
:)

[pacers7isback]

Any run that scores after Chipper Jones makes his out is unearned, as he would have been the third out. So all runs should be unearned.

Thx for pointing that out. I wasn't even thinking about that when I looked at it.

[PadresFan104]

Not sure if this has been reported yet. Made me chuckle though... It's like one part of the program recognized the 4-1 win as a shutout (and yes, it was an earned run as well, a solo homerun in the top of the 9th), but the story text was smart enough to know it wasn't, referring to the pitchers 0th shutout of the season... :) Oh, and this was with the 9.43 official release.

I dug a little deeper and found that the Padres solo HR was not charged to the pitcher as an Earned Run, so I'm sure that led to the problem in the first place.
5115

Box and Recap attached. Pretty clear that the game simply didn't count the 9th inning solo shot as an earned run.

[SirKodiak]

ahh, he was a pinch hitter.

http://forum.sportsmogul.com/showthread.php?t=115730

[ohms_law]

yup, that's what I was looking for.
:)


Oh, and this was with the 9.43 official release.

That's why I asked for a box score and recap. As far as I know, the problem was fixed in 9.44C.

[HoustonGM]

What patch is this on?

The earned run code was updated in oene of the 9.44 patches, which might've fixed this. (not sure though)

Ah, missed that.

[PadresFan104]

Ok, thanks guys... When the next "official" patch comes out, I'll keep my eyes out for the bug recurring.

[Red Sox Fan 734]

i was simming a game when a pop says the redsox and yankees are tied after 7 innings so i join the game. I see that Wily Mo Pena is playing second base and that eric Hinske is playing Shortstop so i change it. I put Alex Cora into second moved hinske to third and put Lowell to Shortstop. I hit done and well look at the picture. It didnt give them rbi's but it's just wierd
7763

[SirKodiak]

Did they get RBIs in the boxscore? And what version are you using?

[HoustonGM]

Did they get RBIs in the boxscore? And what version are you using?
He said it didnt give them RBIs.

[SirKodiak]

Ahh, missed that because the graphic took the words off the screen.

[ohms_law]

that's kinda funny.
:)

[Red Sox Fan 734]

Not sure one of the .44(i am currently using 44d but i 4get which one i was using when i took this screenshot)

[FRENCHREDSOX]

more importantly did you win because the way reality is going...thats as close as the Red Cross Sox are going to beat them

*sadness caused by reality even though a little joy to see Lester can be treated*

[Red Sox Fan 734]

believe it or not i won!!!
Do you know when Lester getting treated for the cancer

[FRENCHREDSOX]

believe it or not i won!!!
Do you know when Lester getting treated for the cancer

According to ESPN treatment starts monday & likely involve Chemo-therapy so the poor guy is going to throw up alot & lose a lot of weight.

However the good news is that its 90% certain he will have it licked but his career is up in the air (depends on the extent & length of treatment etc) BUT as it is not an untreatable type & he is young there is a chance that he could be back late next year...



More important though is that he licks it

[Red Sox Fan 734]

ya hopefully he will get better

[FRENCHREDSOX]

ya hopefully he will get better

Other great news its either 37 year old Kevin Jarvis or Lenny (ive got a bad neck) DiNardo starting *scary* with David Murphy in RF today *very scary*

:eek:

[Red Sox Fan 734]

Its Jarvis:eek:
Glad to see Murphy making his big league debut though

[TheJay]

Geez...I remember thinking how much Jarvis sucked when I played Triple Play 99 back in the day.

[SirKodiak]

I know it is marked fixed, but for completeness's sake:

At the end of the seventh, Oakland leads 7 to 1.

TOP OF THE EIGHTH
Bobby Crosby came in to play First Base. <3-1>
Mark Ellis came in to play Second Base. <--->
Eric Chavez came in to play Third Base for two RBIs. <--->
Nick Swisher came in to play Left Field. <--->
Jay Payton came in to play Shortstop. <--->
Yuniesky Betancourt came in to play Shortstop. <--->
grounded to the pitcher. <--->
grounded to the pitcher. <--->
grounded to the pitcher. <--->
grounded to the pitcher. <--->
grounded to the pitcher. <--->
grounded to the pitcher. <--->
grounded to the pitcher. <--->

5162


TOP OF THE EIGHTH
Bobby Crosby came in to play First Base. <3-1>
Mark Ellis came in to play Second Base. <--->
Eric Chavez came in to play Third Base for two RBIs. <--->
Nick Swisher came in to play Left Field. <--->
Jay Payton came in to play Shortstop. <--->
Yuniesky Betancourt came in to play Shortstop. <--->
grounded to the pitcher. <--->
grounded to the pitcher. <--->
grounded to the pitcher. <--->
grounded to the pitcher. <--->
grounded to the pitcher. <--->
grounded to the pitcher. <--->
grounded to the pitcher. <--->
XXXX XXXXXXXX struck out. <--->
Jeremy Reed grounded to the shortstop. <--->

5163


Seattle Mariners at Oakland Athletics
April 13, 2006

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 + R H E
Mariners (SEA) 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 4 1
Athletics (OAK) 5 0 0 0 0 0 2 7 9 0

SEATTLE ab h bb r hr bi k sb avg
I. Suzuki (RF) 3 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 .184
J. Reed (CF) 2 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 .273
K. Johjima (C) 3 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 .229
R. Sexson (1B) 2 0 1 0 0 0 2 0 .214
A. Beltre (3B) 3 1 0 0 0 1 1 0 .290
C. Everett (DH) 3 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 .182
R. Ibanez (LF) 3 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 .292
J. Lopez (2B) 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .172
M. Scutaro (SS) 3 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 .286
TOTALS 25 4 2 2 0 2 6 0


SEATTLE ip h bb hr r er k pit ERA
J. Moyer 2.0 6 0 1 5 0 1 37 2.89
G. Sherrill 2.0 0 2 0 0 0 1 34 0.00
J. Kennedy 2.2 3 1 1 2 2 1 40 6.00
R. Soriano 0.1 0 0 0 0 0 0 5 0.00
TOTALS 7.0 9 3 2 7 2 3 116

OAKLAND ab h bb r hr bi k sb avg
M. Bradley (RF) 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .167
M. Ellis (2B) 4 3 0 2 1 2 0 0 .100
M. Ellis (2B) 4 3 0 2 1 2 0 0 .100
B. Crosby (SS) 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .129
B. Crosby (SS) 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .129
F. Thomas (DH) 3 1 1 1 0 1 0 0 .265
N. Swisher (1B) 2 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 .419
N. Swisher (1B) 2 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 .419
J. Payton (LF) 3 1 0 1 0 2 0 0 .400
J. Payton (LF) 3 1 0 1 0 2 0 0 .400
Y. Betancourt (P) 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .000
E. Chavez (3B) 2 1 1 1 1 2 0 0 .188
E. Chavez (3B) 2 1 1 1 1 2 0 0 .188
K. Suzuki (C) 3 0 0 0 0 0 3 0 .111
M. Kotsay (CF) 3 2 0 1 0 0 0 0 .226
TOTALS 43 15 5 12 4 13 3 0

2B: N. Swisher (4)
HR: M. Ellis (1), E. Chavez (1)

OAKLAND ip h bb hr r er k pit ERA
J. Blanton 7.0 4 2 0 2 2 6 100 4.40
TOTALS 7.0 4 2 0 2 2 6 100

What I did was move Crosby from SS to 1B, put Betancourt at SS, moved Swisher from 1B to LF, and removed Payton.
Ichiro was credited with a run and an rbi, and Blanton was charged with an earned run. Will check log after game.

EDIT: Did check logs after game, Blanton was charged with the ER and R, and Ichiro did get an the RBI and R, and the K
So not just a display error.

[Sher]

My starter went 5 innings and earned the win. I brought in Wang and he pitched 4 innings. Correct me if I'm wrong but shouldn't he be awarded a save because he had the lead and he kept it while pitching at least 3 innings.

Box Score is attached.

[HoustonGM]

Which patch is this on?

[Sher]

9.4.4I

From mlb.com:

A pitcher is credited with a save when he finishes a game won by his club, is not the winning pitcher, and either (a) enters the game with a lead of no more than three runs and pitches for at least one inning, (b) enters the game with the potential tying run either on base, or at bat, or on deck, or (c) pitches effectively for at least three innings.

I'm wondering if Wang was considered not effective because he came in with a 6 run lead, or if the game just doesn't give a save at all for situation C.

[ohms_law]

see part (a) of the save rule.

[HoustonGM]

Right. Obviously.

[dolfanar]

see part (a) of the save rule.

But those rules are exclusive to each other aren't they?

(a) enters the game with a lead of no more than three runs and pitches for at least one inning,

(b) enters the game with the potential tying run either on base, or at bat, or on deck, or

(c) pitches effectively for at least three innings.

(a) Doesn't say enters the game with a lead of no more than three runs and pitches for at least three innings. Otherwise the whole point of c is lost, since if you enter the game with a 3 run lead and pitcha single inning you are already a candidate for a save wether you pitch 1,2,3 or 4 innings. So (c) is definitely in effect here.

[Sher]

It says or meaning it can be a b or c. It doesn't have to be all.

I'm trying to find an example of a real-life game where this occurs.

Edit:

Found one, http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/wrap.jsp?ymd=20060905&content_id=1647954&vkey=wrapup2005&fext=.jsp&team=away

Wellemeyer got a save for pitching 3.1 innings.

[ohms_law]

Wellemeyer had a three run lead. Pitchers aren't given a save if they enter the game with more than a three run lead. ever.

[dolfanar]

Wellemeyer had a three run lead. Pitchers aren't given a save if they enter the game with more than a three run lead. ever.

the C is completely redundant, since if you enter with a 3 run lead and pitch *atleast* one inning you are elligible for the save already.

Why bother listing (c) at all?

Universal:"A pitcher is credited with a save when he finishes a game won by his club, is not the winning pitcher." This is the preamble and applies to all save scenarios.

The other 3 are completely indipendant. otherwise the rule would read like this:

A pitcher is credited with a save when he finishes a game won by his club, is not the winning pitcher, and enters the game with a lead of no more than three runs and either (a) pitches for at least one inning, or (b) enters the game with the potential tying run either on base, or at bat, or on deck.

[ohms_law]

ok, then find an instance of a pitcher entering the game with 4 or more runs lead, and earning a save.

the (c) pitches effectively portion of the rule is to give official scorers a way to not award a save when it's obvious that they shouldn't. for example:
5th inning, Team A leads Team B by 3 runs. Team B is at bat, bases are loaded, but they're only all there due to an error. Relief pitcher comes in, allows a hit. Two runners score (unearned). pitcher allows one more hit, then the next two batters fly out. next inning, relief pitcher allows three on base, but get's out of the inning without a run against. following inning, guy allows 2 runners on. he never get's a strikeout.
Should that guy get a save?

[SirKodiak]

Pitchers aren't given a save if they enter the game with more than a three run lead. ever.

That is incorrect. Save works like this:

A pitcher is credited with a save when:

he finishes a game won by his club, and
is not the winning pitcher, and
either

enters the game with a lead of no more than three runs and pitches for at least one inning, or
enters the game with the potential tying run either on base, or at bat, or on deck, or
pitches effectively for at least three innings.


1 and 2 must be true, and at least one of a, b, or C must be true.

Here is a box score from a minor league game (which uses the same rules as the majors) that shows this:
http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&gid=2006_08_20_misrok_casrok_1&cid=518&t=g_box
notice that Missoula is up by 5 runs when H. Ambriz comes into the game.


The term "effectively" is an official scorers call, and thus is dependent upon how Clay has programmed it, but it is almost always given in the majors from what I have seen, even when the pitcher is what most people would consider ineffective.


ok, then find an instance of a pitcher entering the game with 4 or more runs lead, and earning a save.

the (c) pitches effectively portion of the rule is to give official scorers a way to not award a save when it's obvious that they shouldn't. for example:
5th inning, Team A leads Team B by 3 runs. Team B is at bat, bases are loaded, but they're only all there due to an error. Relief pitcher comes in, allows a hit. Two runners score (unearned). pitcher allows one more hit, then the next two batters fly out. next inning, relief pitcher allows three on base, but get's out of the inning without a run against. following inning, guy allows 2 runners on. he never get's a strikeout.
Should that guy get a save?
example from 2006 MLB:
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/boxscore.jsp?gid=2006_07_05_flomlb_wasmlb_1
Florida was up 18-5 when Pinto came into the game. Pinto pitched the final 3 innings and allowed 4 ER and got the save.

[ohms_law]

holy ****...
:eek:

i'm... speachless. I've had that understanding of a save for at least 10 years, and i've never noticed a game where it didn't work out...

[TheJay]

It happens a few times a year though less recently with specialized bullpens and shorter-endurance relievers. It was notable recently that Jae Seo didn't get a save for pitching the final three innings of the LAD-PIT game on June 23. People thought that might've been the first time since the save rule was adopted (so first time since 1969) that someone who fulfilled criterion C didn't get a save. It makes sense because it's the official scorer's decision and the guy said Seo didn't pitch well enough to earn the save.

[SFSteveG]

I remember a game I'd have to say 2 years ago in I think Philly where Glendon Rusch went 4 innings of shutout baseball and got the save. It was quite a performance.

[dolfanar]

I remember seeing it more often in the 80's. Thanks for seeking out those box scores guys!

As for pitching "effectively", usually that comes down to not giving up the lead, which would make the reliever in question the decision pitcher (W or L). So as long as he doesn't allow the other team to tie the game at any point, he gets the save (never seen an offical scorer make a judgement call on this).

[BubbaDrew]

Wellemeyer had a three run lead. Pitchers aren't given a save if they enter the game with more than a three run lead. ever.

actually wellemeyer had a 4 run lead.

[SirKodiak]

As for pitching "effectively", usually that comes down to not giving up the lead, which would make the reliever in question the decision pitcher (W or L). So as long as he doesn't allow the other team to tie the game at any point, he gets the save (never seen an offical scorer make a judgement call on this).
http://griddle.baseballtoaster.com/archives/436773.html
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore?gid=260623119
Now ya have ;)

[TheJay]

I think the best thing about the yahoo box score is that they never took the S: J. Seo part off since they jumped the gun and gave him a save. That S: J. Seo (0) just looks funny.

[jonnymo]

My starter went 5 innings and earned the win. I brought in Wang and he pitched 4 innings. Correct me if I'm wrong but shouldn't he be awarded a save because he had the lead and he kept it while pitching at least 3 innings.
I think we have answered the question of whether Wang should have earned a save. The next question is whether he did earn the save, and it's just not in the box score.

I had to dig through my schedule to find this one, but back on Opening Day (when I was still on 9.43), John Smoltz pitched four innings of scoreless relief (see attached). When I checked his scouting report, I saw that he had been awarded the save.

Sher - did Wang earn the save? Is this a scoring issue, or a display issue?

[Sher]

In the pitching dialog it does say he has 1 save. Since he is normally a starter this must be from that game.

However, like you said, it did not show up in the box score.

[BubbaDrew]

I don't understand the logic in teh way you guys were saying that it had to be 3 run or less lead for the 3+ inning save to take effect. Why even have the 3 inning rule if you needed the same lead for a one inning save? obviously something would be different about it if it mentions a 3 inning save.

[jonnymo]

I don't understand the logic in teh way you guys were saying that it had to be 3 run or less lead for the 3+ inning save to take effect. Why even have the 3 inning rule if you needed the same lead for a one inning save? obviously something would be different about it if it mentions a 3 inning save.
Bubba - reread Kodiak's post. It does not need to be a lead of three runs or less.


example from 2006 MLB:
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/boxscore.jsp?gid=2006_07_05_flomlb_wasmlb_1
Florida was up 18-5 when Pinto came into the game. Pinto pitched the final 3 innings and allowed 4 ER and got the save.

[BubbaDrew]

Bubba - reread Kodiak's post. It does not need to be a lead of three runs or less.

I know it doesn't, reread my post. I was simply saying that I don't know how ohms and the others who thought it did need to be thought way in the first place. Just read my post carefully you should get what i'm saying. I've always known the three inning rule.

[FRENCHREDSOX]

I know it doesn't, reread my post. I was simply saying that I don't know how ohms and the others who thought it did need to be thought way in the first place. Just read my post carefully you should get what i'm saying. I've always known the three inning rule.

But if I read rightly the 3 inning rule is a discretionary award (dependent on the scorer's judgement) whilst the first two are mandatory.

Thus the confusion

[SFSteveG]

The rule for the 3+ inning save is so that guys can't get saves for pitching 3 innings and giving up 5 runs.

[RAW]

The following occured in a recent game:


TOP OF THE FIRST
Tom Fordham takes the mound for the Phillies.
Terry Jones singled to center field. <--1>
Terry Jones stole second. <-2->
Eric Owens struck out. <-2->
Terry Jones stole third. <3-->
Mario Valdez grounded to second, scoring a run. <--->
Jose Oliva walked. <--1>
Brent Brede singled to left, advancing the runner to third. <3-1>
Jason LaRue reached second on a fielding error by the right fielder - a run scored. <32->
Shane Halter grounded to the second baseman. <32->
2 runs, 2 hits, 1 error, and 2 left on base.
In the middle of the first, Cincinnati leads 2 to 0.

PHILADELPHIA ip h bb hr r er k pit ERA
T. Fordham 6.0 9 2 0 2 2 2 94 2.59

As you can see, Fordham was credited with 2 earned runs against his record, when only 1 earned run should have been recorded. The fielding error by the right fielder would have resulted in the third out of the inning, and the run would not have scored, making it un-earned.

I hope this is one of the corrections to be made in a newer version to be released.

Sher is correct. His pitcher should have been awarded a save, unless in the official scorers decision he did not pitch effectively. Allowing only 3 hits and 1 earned run in 4 innings seems to be effective pitching to me. Only rarely, in this situation is a save not given.

[HoustonGM]

It's been fixed in one of the unofficial 9.44 patches.

[ohms_law]

right, that's not really a question anymore...

I'm not complaining that you posted this, by any means. I just wanted everyone that is still using 9.43 to be aware of this thread: http://forum.sportsmogul.com/showthread.php?t=121170

If you check that thread before posting, it can save some time and trouble.

[RAW]

ohms law - thanks for the guidance, I'll check that thread if I run into anything else. You guys really stay on top of the game, and it's really appreciated. Thanks again.

[ohms_law]

it's just that we have no life is all...
;)

[RAW]

According to the scoring rules, a pitcher should be given a save if he finishes the game, pitched three innings efffectively and holds the lead.

SAVES FOR RELIEF PITCHERS
10.20
Credit a pitcher with a save when he meets all three of the following conditions:
(1) He is the finishing pitcher in a game won by his club; and
(2) He is not the winning pitcher; and
(3) He qualifies under one of the following conditions:
(a) He enters the game with a lead of no more than three runs and pitches for at least one inning; or
(b) He enters the game, regardless of the count, with the potential tying run either on base, or at bat, or on deck (that is, the potential tying run is either already on base or is one of the first two batsmen he faces); or
(c) He pitches effectively for at least three innings. No more than one save may be credited in each game.



Note the following in the box score for pitcher Roy Oswalt:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 + R H E
Phillies (PHI) 0 1 0 2 0 2 1 1 0 7 12 0
Reds (CIN) 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 2 7 2
PHILADELPHIA ip h bb hr r er k pit ERA
S. Etherton 6.0 5 4 0 2 2 7 98 2.48
R. Oswalt 3.0 2 1 0 0 0 5 57 4.86
WP: S. Etherton (5-3)
LP: M. Guthrie (1-5)
Accordingly, Oswalt should have been credited with a save.

[HoustonGM]

What patch was this on? Also, was the game played in PBP or was it simulated?

[RAW]

Version 9.45. Game played in play by play, one pitch mode. Oswalt give save in pitching record and in game log, but not in box score.

Version 9.45, one pitch, play by play. See attached play by play and line score. Runs scored in 1st and 2nd innings should be unearned, while run in 3rd inning is earned, yet Messina is credited with two earned runs and one unearned runs. He should be credited with one earned run and two unearned runs.

BOTTOM OF THE FIRST
Mike Mussina takes the mound for the Phillies.
Terry Jones reached first on a fielding error by the second baseman. <--1>
Brent Brede flied out to center. <--1>
Orlando Cabrera singled to center field, advancing the runner to third. <3-1>
John Jaha popped up to second. <3-1>
Gary Matthews reached first on a fielding error by the left fielder - a run scored. <3-1>
Tom Wilson walked. <321>
Bill Spiers lined out to third. <321>
1 run, 1 hit, 2 errors, and 3 left on base.
At the end of the first, Cincinnati leads 1 to 0.

BOTTOM OF THE SECOND
Chris Clapinski grounded to the second baseman. <--->
Rob Bell doubled to the wall in left. <-2->
Terry Jones grounded to short. <-2->
Brent Brede reached second on a throwing error by the first baseman - a run scored. <-2->
Orlando Cabrera popped up to short. <-2->
1 run, 1 hit, 1 error, and 1 left on base.
At the end of the second, Cincinnati leads 2 to 0.

BOTTOM OF THE THIRD
John Jaha flied out to center. <--->
Gary Matthews grounded to short. <--->
Tom Wilson homered to left-center. <--->
Bill Spiers singled through the right side. <--1>
Chris Clapinski flied out to left. <--1>
1 run, 2 hits, 0 errors, and 1 left on base.
At the end of the third, Cincinnati leads 3 to 2.

PHILADELPHIA ip h bb hr r er k pit ERA
M. Mussina 6.1 5 1 1 3 2 6 107 4.50

Note that Bell scored from 2nd on the error by the 1st baseman, not from 3rd. Had he scored from 3rd it probably could be construd as an earned run, but not on a two-base error that allowed him to score from 2nd.

[jonnymo]

Note that Bell scored from 2nd on the error by the 1st baseman, not from 3rd. Had he scored from 3rd it probably could be construd as an earned run, but not on a two-base error that allowed him to score from 2nd.
I have noticed this also. However, that run in the second should have been unearned no matter where Bell was standing before the play. W/ two out, the only way the run could have been earned is also the only way that Brede could have been credited w/ an RBI -- if there was a hit and an error on the same play, which is not possible in BM2K7.

[RAW]

jonnymo - On second look, you're correct, Bell's run could not be earned no matter where he was as it was already two outs when the error occured. Thanks for being so observant.

[Redsauce]

9.45, XP
I've attached the play-by-play for the last inning of the game and the box score for the two pitchers. Jim Wright should have been credited with a couple of earned runs (see play by play), but it shows all his runs as unearned. Maybe I'm wrong on what should and should not be an UER, but I don't think so. The first error is wiped out as the runner on base due to the error was erased by the double-play. BM simply says every run after that is unearned. Am I wrong on my UER/ER distinction here?

[Rovy]

Based on what I interperet from MLB's rules, the first two are earned, as they got 2 outs on those batters (which would have happened without errors). Then 3 runs scores, without errors, and everything after that is UE. (unless a pitcher change occurs).

Edit: Didn't see 2 runs scoring on the triple. Only 1 UE as stated.

[SirKodiak]

Only the run scored by Orsatti would be unearned. The DP does wipe out the error if you rebuild the inning. One of those strange things that it is probably easy for a program tracking the inning to miss unless a specific exception is put in.

[DeViLzzz2006]

Yeah 3 of the 4 runs should be earned .....

[HoustonGM]

Johan Santana on the mound for the Indians.
Eric Duncan flied out to center.
Aramis Ramirez struck out.
Blaine Boyer came in to pitch for the Indians.
Kenji Johjima grounded back to the pitcher.
INDIANS WIN: 3-0

Blaine Boyer did not earn a save.

[RAW]

BOTTOM OF THE SEVENTH
Jason Simontacchi came in to pitch for the Phillies. <--->
Carlos Valderrama grounded to third. <--->
Brent Brede struck out. <--->
Vincent Mackinnell lined out to center. <--->
0 runs, 0 hits, 0 errors, and 0 left on base.
At the end of the seventh, Cincinnati trails 10 to 3.

BOTTOM OF THE EIGHTH
Tom Wilson struck out. <--->
Kent Rose popped up foul down the first base line. <--->
J.T. Castile flied out to left field. <--->
0 runs, 0 hits, 0 errors, and 0 left on base.
At the end of the eighth, Cincinnati trails 11 to 3.

BOTTOM OF THE NINTH
Ray Olmedo grounded back to the pitcher. <--->
Larry Barnes pinch hit for Jose Rodriguez. <--->
Larry Barnes doubled over the center fielder. <-2->
Terry Jones grounded to the shortstop. <-2->
Carlos Valderrama singled to left, scoring a run. <--1>
Brent Brede walked. <-21>
Vincent Mackinnell flied out to right. <-21>

PHILLIES WIN: 11-4

Simontacchi pitched three effective innings and finished the game. He should be awarded a save, but was not.

[EVEN11323]

Johan Santana on the mound for the Indians.
Eric Duncan flied out to center.
Aramis Ramirez struck out.
Blaine Boyer came in to pitch for the Indians.
Kenji Johjima grounded back to the pitcher.
INDIANS WIN: 3-0

Blaine Boyer did not earn a save.

He would have had to pitch the entire inning for the save.

[HoustonGM]

He would have had to pitch the entire inning for the save.
Not true.


A save is credited to a pitcher who fulfills the following three conditions:

1) The pitcher is the last pitcher in a game won by his team;
2) The pitcher is not the winning pitcher (for instance, if a starting pitcher throws a complete game win or, alternatively, if the pitcher gets a blown save and then his team scores a winning run while he is the pitcher of record, sometimes known as a "vulture win");
3) The pitcher fulfills at least one of the following three conditions:
a)He comes into the game with a lead of no more than three runs.
b)He comes into the game with the potential tying run being either on base, at bat, or on deck.
c)He pitches for at least three innings after entering the game with a lead.
He was the last pitcher in the game won by his team. He wasn't the winning pitcher. He fulfills criteria 3A - came into the game with a lead of no more than three runs.


I knew there were problems with the "three inning effective pitching" save rule. This one seems to be a fairly basic save that isn't getting recorded

[EVEN11323]

SAVES FOR RELIEF PITCHERS
10.20
Credit a pitcher with a save when he meets all three of the following conditions:
(1) He is the finishing pitcher in a game won by his club; and
(2) He is not the winning pitcher; and
(3) He qualifies under one of the following conditions:
(a) He enters the game with a lead of no more than three runs and pitches for at least one inning; or
(b) He enters the game, regardless of the count, with the potential tying run either on base, or at bat, or on deck (that is, the potential tying run is either already on base or is one of the first two batsmen he faces); or
(c) He pitches effectively for at least three innings. No more than one save may be credited in each game.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/official_info/official_rules/official_scorer_10.jsp

He does need to pitch a full inning, unless there were runners on, which, as you put in your game text, there weren't.

(Sorry about the Coding, I don't know how to make it without the scrollbar.)

[HoustonGM]

I guess whoever editted Wikipedia cut part of the definition off...=\

Thansk for clarifying.

(Code automatically gives a scroll bar. I used Quote)

[EVEN11323]

Yeah, I looked at Wikipedia too, and I knew that it was missing something. And thanks for the Code tip.

[ohms_law]

ah, that darn saves rule. none of us seem to be able to keep it straight!
lol

[RAW]

HoustonGM - Boyer did not earn a save as he did not meet the save requirement of, when pitching less than one complete inning, he did not face the tying run, nor was the tying run on deck.
In my post, Simontacchi finished the game, and pitched three effective innings and should be given a save. And you're correct, the three inning save rule is, apparently, missing in our game.

[HoustonGM]

HoustonGM - Boyer did not earn a save as he did not meet the save requirement of, when pitching less than one complete inning, he did not face the tying run, nor was the tying run on deck.
In my post, Simontacchi finished the game, and pitched three effective innings and should be given a save. And you're correct, the three inning save rule is, apparently, missing in our game.
Yep, Igo that. :)

[Rovy]

Hate to start a new thread, so let Ohms do it :P

Pitcher has pitched for 3 innings, when Torres comes up for me with 2 outs. Being 0-3 in the game, I decide to PH Mondesi for him, hoping he can hit a HR. He steps up, and gets the count full, before BAM, nails one over the fence, giving my team that extra bit of cushion they like to have.

However, I look at Chacon has a hit and a HR against him, but no run, earned or otherwised. I have seen a similar error before in the playoffs, but don't remember it in the regular season.

I've attached the boxscore for your viewing pleasure

Beginning to think it is a playoff thing, based around HR's only though. Had the same thing happen against my pitcher last game. Gave up a solo HR, and didn't show up anywhere.

Nope, not a playoff thing. Just had it happen, and it wasn't even a solo HR. First game of the 2007 season, up 3-0 in the top of 9. Vazquez pitching a dominant game, gives up a hit to the leadoff batter. The next batter steps up and nails one over the fence.

Check the boxscore after, and Vazquez is credited with 1 run, 1 earned when it should be 2.

[ohms_law]

That's odd. I'd think that this deserves it's own thread as well. (and the other three threads should be in another thread anyway).

Nope, not a playoff thing. Just had it happen, and it wasn't even a solo HR.
ok, good to know. i'll change the thread title. I missed a post when I moved them anyway.

there, fixed.
:)

[Rovy]

Just happened again. Team was down 2-0 going into the 9th. Decided R. Johnson had enough gas in the tank to finish the game. Well, he gives up the first two hits, and I decide that maybe it's best to change him. So I bring in de la Rosa, who promply gets out the first two batters before throwing a wild pitch, and walking the next. Bases loaded, he gives up a 3 run double, before getting the next batter out.

So here I am, figuring that it's over down 5-0 in the bottom of the 9th. Well, my first three batters get on, before the next strikes out. I PH, and he walks, scoring a run. New pitcher, who promply strikes out the first pitcher. So I PH again, looking for the player with the best power (L. Terrero at 74...) who nails one over the fence for the game tying grand slam!

But alas, the 2nd pitcher didn't get a run counted against him.

Anyway, this is related to a 2nd thread (hope I can duplicate this in both places). They bring in a new pitcher, who gives up 2 hits. Runners on 1st and 3rd. Batter gets to 2-2 on the count, before getting a ball. Runner on 1st advances to 2nd on DI...

Can anyone guess what happen on the next pitch? :p

[shawnmckee]

Many runs are scored and are erronuosly charged to the pitcher as earned runs . according to MLB rules , if a batter reaches base due to a feilding error , and comes around to score by any means , that run is always scored as " unearned " . Also , when a baserunner scores as a result of a feilding error , that run is always scored as " unearned " ( no RBI is awarded to the batter , that part of the stats program is working correctly . ) Also , when a baserunner scores as a result of a passed ball by the catcher , the run is always scored as " unearned " ( a wild pitch IS scored as an earned run ) .
SM

in player mode , a run scored due to a feilding error . the pitcher was incorrectly charged with an earned run . according to MLB scoring rules , this is an unearned run .
SM

*CORRECTION - pitching record correctly displays unearned run . on play-by-play screen the run is listed as earned . RBI is correctly not given to batter .
SM

[Pavelb1]

In a situation where the starting pitcher didn't pitch the first 5 innings....the game is giving the win to the last pitcher as opposed to the pitcher who 'did the best'....I think before 1.19 the game did a fairly good job of handling this, but in the last game i played the game gave the win to the pitcher who pitched the ninth in a 10-5 win.

[HoustonGM]

In a situation where the starting pitcher didn't pitch the first 5 innings....the game is giving the win to the last pitcher as opposed to the pitcher who 'did the best'....I think before 1.19 the game did a fairly good job of handling this, but in the last game i played the game gave the win to the pitcher who pitched the ninth in a 10-5 win.
It has nothing to do with who pitched the best. Whichever pitcher was pitching when his team took the lead gets the win. The starter must go 5 innings to get a win. Did the team take the lead in the 9th inning?

[Pavelb1]

It has nothing to do with who pitched the best. Whichever pitcher was pitching when his team took the lead gets the win. The starter must go 5 innings to get a win. Did the team take the lead in the 9th inning?

They didn't. They had the lead when the pitcher left after 4.2 innings.

Which is why I always thought it was a scorers decision.

[HoustonGM]

They didn't. They had the lead when the pitcher left after 4.2 innings.

Which is why I always thought it was a scorers decision.
I'm not sure on the rule on that, it might be the guy who came in next? IDk.

[echrisl]

The topic creator is correct, in a situation where the starting pitcher departs before completing five innings while his team is leading the ballgame, the official scorer awards the decision to the most effective relief pitcher, assuming no further lead changes.


10.17 Winning And Losing Pitcher
(a) The official scorer shall credit as the winning pitcher that pitcher whose team assumes a lead while such pitcher is in the game, or during the inning on offense in which such pitcher is removed from the game, and does not relinquish such lead, unless
(1) such pitcher is a starting pitcher and Rule 10.17(b) applies; or
(2) Rule 10.17(c) applies.
Rule 10.17(a) Comment: Whenever the score is tied, the game becomes a new contest insofar as the winning pitcher is concerned. Once the opposing team assumes the lead, all pitchers who have pitched up to that point and have been replaced are excluded from being credited with the victory. If the pitcher against whose pitching the opposing team gained the lead continues to pitch until his team regains the lead, which it holds to the finish of the game, that pitcher shall be the winning pitcher.
(b) If the pitcher whose team assumes a lead while such pitcher is in the game, or during the inning on offense in which such pitcher is removed from the game, and does not relinquish such lead, is a starting pitcher who has not completed
(1) five innings of a game that lasts six or more innings on defense, or
(2) four innings of a game that lasts five innings on defense, then the official scorer shall credit as the winning pitcher the relief pitcher, if there is only one relief pitcher, or the relief pitcher who, in the official scorer’s judgment was the most effective, if there is more than one relief pitcher.
Rule 10.17(b) Comment: It is the intent of Rule 10.17(b) that a relief pitcher pitch at least one complete inning or pitch when a crucial out is made, within the context of the game (including the score), in order to be credited as the winning pitcher. If the first relief pitcher pitches effectively, the official scorer should not presumptively credit that pitcher with the win, because the rule requires that the win be credited to the pitcher who was the most effective, and a subsequent relief pitcher may have been most effective. The official scorer, in determining which relief pitcher was the most effective, should consider the number of runs, earned runs and base runners given up by each relief pitcher and the context of the game at the time of each relief pitcher’s appearance. If two or more relief pitchers were similarly effective, the official scorer should give the presumption to the earlier pitcher as the winning pitcher.
(c) The official scorer shall not credit as the winning pitcher a relief pitcher who is ineffective in a brief appearance, when at least one succeeding relief pitcher pitches effectively in helping his team maintain its lead. In such a case, the official scorer shall credit as the winning pitcher the succeeding relief pitcher who was most effective, in the judgment of the official scorer.
Rule 10.17(c) Comment: The official scorer generally should, but is not required to, consider the appearance of a relief pitcher to be ineffective and brief if such relief pitcher pitches less than one inning and allows two or more earned runs to score (even if such runs are charged to a previous pitcher). Rule 10.17(b) Comment provides guidance on choosing the winning pitcher from among several succeeding relief pitchers.
(d) A losing pitcher is a pitcher who is responsible for the run that gives the winning team a lead that the winning team does not relinquish.
Rule 10.17(d) Comment: Whenever the score is tied, the game becomes a new contest insofar as the losing pitcher is concerned.
(e) A league may designate a non-championship game (for example, the Major League All-Star Game) for which Rules 10.17(a)(1) and 10.17(b) do not apply. In such games, the official scorer shall credit as the winning pitcher that pitcher whose team assumes a lead while such pitcher is in the game, or during the inning on offense in which such pitcher is removed from the game, and does not relinquish such lead, unless such pitcher is knocked out after the winning team has attained a commanding lead and the official scorer concludes that a subsequent pitcher is entitled to credit as the winning pitcher.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/official_scorer_10.jsp

Obviously it's not exactly a cut and dry rule, and it seems like in recent memory whichever pitcher completes the fifth inning is typically awarded the win in spite of this being the official language.

[jonnymo]

Obviously it's not exactly a cut and dry rule, and it seems like in recent memory whichever pitcher completes the fifth inning is typically awarded the win in spite of this being the official language.
You know, I see this in BM all the time, but before Friday's Reds-Cubs game (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore?gid=270413116), I can't remember the last time I saw it IRL: :eek:


Final 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 R H E
Cincinnati 0 0 0 0 6 0 0 0 0 6 6 0
Chi Cubs 2 1 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 5 15 0

IP H R ER BB K HR Season ERA
A. Harang 4.0 9 5 5 2 3 1 5.40
J. Coutlangus 1.0 0 0 0 0 2 0 3.38
V. Santos (H, 1) 0.2 1 0 0 1 0 0 0.00
R. Cormier (H, 3) 0.1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.00
T. Coffey (W, 1-0) 2.0 1 0 0 0 3 0 1.42
D. Weathers (S, 4) 1.0 2 0 0 0 1 0 2.70

Coutlangus came in w/ a 6-5 lead, pitched a scoreless fifth, and left w/ a 6-5 lead, in a game the Reds won 6-5. Now, I'm wondering whether BM2K8 would correctly award the holds to Santos and Cormier...

[RAW]

Just got and installed BBM 2008 on CD. Very first game and the xxx losing pitcher bug is still rearing its ugly head.

[ohms_law]

Just got and installed BBM 2008 on CD. Very first game and the xxx losing pitcher bug is still rearing its ugly head.

That was fixed during late beta. Update you're game. There's a thread for 10.18 stickied to the top of this forum.

[ladawson]

Having played Mogul since the first version I know this item has been around in many versions and seems to come and go. In the past the reports had always been regarding the regular season. This time I noticed it in the playoffs.

I'm playing version 10.21 and in the 2022 playoffs in a 16-5 blowout I had a starter go 6 innings and a reliever go the final 3 innings and the reliever was not credited with a save.

[Rongar]

I beg to differ on that...the runners on the bases are the sole responsibility of the pitcher that put them there..not the reliever or any previous pitcher. Therefore, if Joe Starter left the game with runners on say first and second and then the reliever John Camelately gives up a home run..the reliever is charged with only ONE run while the starter is charged with the TWO runs. That is the rule in MLB.

Lets say for the sake of argument that the starter left the game with a 2-1 lead.

The reliever comes in with two runners on and gives up the home run. Here is how the runs are charged:

The starter is charge with 3 runs; the previous run PLUS the two runners that were on base when he left;

The reliever is charged with 1 run. The batter that hit the home run.

Moreover, lets say those were the only runs scored for the remainder of the game for either team. That is to say Joe Starter's team lost the game 4-2.

The winning run was the responsibility of the STARTER, not the Reliever and therefore the STARTER is tagged with the loss. At worse, the reliever gets a blown save (depending on when in the game he came in).

It is NOT who is pitching when the winning run is scored necessarily, it is WHO is responsible for the runner who crossed the plate with the eventual winning run.

This is one of the reasons (other than agents wanting to jack up the salary requests for their clients) the 'Inherited Runner' stat has reared its ugly head in the MLB. Because, a reliever can let a tying run, or even a go ahead run score and eventually get the win if his team comes back to win the game. The agents feel that if their client (a reliever) can keep inherited runners from scoring, the pitcher is more valuable and thereby deserves a higher salary.

If I could find my MLB rulebook I could give you page, paragraph, section, subsection that pertains to this instance. But, alas, it is somewhere buried deep in the piles of mags, books, paper, wrappers, dirty plates and such in this computer room. ;)

All the best,
Ken

As long as you can find the computer, Ken...:)

[jonnymo]

Pitcher has pitched for 3 innings, when Torres comes up for me with 2 outs. Being 0-3 in the game, I decide to PH Mondesi for him, hoping he can hit a HR. He steps up, and gets the count full, before BAM, nails one over the fence, giving my team that extra bit of cushion they like to have.

However, I look at Chacon has a hit and a HR against him, but no run, earned or otherwised. I have seen a similar error before in the playoffs, but don't remember it in the regular season...

Not a playoff thing. Just had it happen, and it wasn't even a solo HR. First game of the 2007 season, up 3-0 in the top of 9. Vazquez pitching a dominant game, gives up a hit to the leadoff batter. The next batter steps up and nails one over the fence.

Check the boxscore after, and Vazquez is credited with 1 run, 1 earned when it should be 2.
Still around in 10.21. This is a continued game from 10.20 (originally imported from 9.XX), run on XP SP2.

The bug may be most noticeable on a HR, but it can happen whenever a PH scores the winning run. In the below example, PH Billy Ashley hits a game-tying double, then scores the go-ahead run.

I can't figure out why sometimes this bug occurs, and sometimes it doesn't.

This is also an example of what appears to be a side effect of the same bug: if the run that was not attributed to any pitcher winds up being the winning run, a position player (in this case, and usually, I believe, a PH for the pitcher, although not necessarily the one that should have earned the loss) gets the loss in the recap. It does not get added to any player's scouting card.

[jonnymo]

BBM 08, ver 10.21

Outs Count Pitch (MPH) Pedro Ramos came in to pitch for the Senators. Runners WSH BOS
0 1-2 Spitball (85) Ernie Banks flied out to center field. 8 8
Billy Klaus pinch hit for George Susce.
1 3-0 Fastball (86) Billy Klaus walked. 8 8
1 2-2 Fastball (89) Jim Piersall struck out. 8 8
Billy Klaus stole second. 8 8
2 1-0 Fastball (87) Mickey Vernon doubled to left, scoring a run. 8 9
RED SOX WIN: 9-8

Obviously Remos is the losing pitcher, however, line score does not give Ramos credit for giving up run and shows Willie Jones (0-0) as losing pitcher.

Senators IP H BB HR R ER K PIT ERA
Bob Turley 7.0 6 4 0 2 2 4 132 5.26
Dick Hyde 1.0 0 0 0 0 0 0 8 5.18
Ted Abernathy 1.0 3 2 0 3 3 1 30 1.14
Evelio Hernandez 1.0 4 0 0 3 3 0 27 6.80
Pedro Ramos 0.2 1 1 0 0 0 1 15 3.75


WP: George Susce (8-2)
LP: Willie Jones (0-0)

Bump.

[ohms_law]

Yea, this should be next on the priority list in my view. Right now Clay and Ian are/have been working on a couple of crash bugs and the salary issues, which is certainly a good thing. After the next patch though, this should probably be the highest priority.

[JustinM]

This is related to the stuff earlier in this thread, but I have no idea if it's already been stated here or not. Forgive me if it has.

Man on first and second. Next person to bat hits the ball to the shortstop who throws the ball away. Men safe on first, third, and a run scores.

That run is not an earned run in the rulebook because on a "normal" ground ball to the shortstop, the runner would not have scored from second base.

The game, however, disagrees. :(

[RAW]

Justin. Hate to disagree, but this could be an earned run. Assuming that there were less than two outs when the SS made the error, AND the next batter gets a hit that would score the runner. Scorer must go back and recreate the inning without the error, not assume a double play, and see what happens.
Let's say, for example, that the SS error would make it two outs, the runner would advance to 3rd. The next batter hits a sacrifice fly and the runner scores. It is then an unearned run, because the sac fly would make it the 3rd out. However, let's say the SS's error would have made it only the first out of the inning, the next hitter hits that sac fly, then the run is earned, because he would have scored without the error being committed.
An exception would be, perhaps, if the SS's error was a bad throw to 3rd that would have forced that original runner from 2nd out at 3rd, then his run could never be earned.

[JustinM]

Well...

a) it doesn't say what base the shortstop is throwing to, only that he made a throwing error, so that part is impossible to say, and

b) it charges the pitcher with an earned run immediately when the runner comes in from second. It doesn't wait to see what happens after that.

[Rovy]

ER vs UER is probably something that is very difficult to programme. It's another part that will probably take a rather complex algorithm to programme properly. I'm betting that once all the bugs are sorted out, then things like this will probably take precidence...

[RAW]

Justin - You're definately correct. That is a bug for sure. Rovy is right, too, in that the er/uer is certainly complex..best bet is for programmer to make all probable and definite unearned runs unearned to start, then later tweek it for all the nuances in the scoring rules.

[Rovy]

Basically, that's almost how it's set up, in that every run now scored after an error is unearned. The only UE runs it's NOT catching is those runs scored with 2 outs DURING an error. (as they'd be UE due to the inning ending)

[JustinM]

ER vs UER is probably something that is very difficult to programme. It's another part that will probably take a rather complex algorithm to programme properly. I'm betting that once all the bugs are sorted out, then things like this will probably take precidence...

Agreed. I bring things like this up mainly because if I don't, maybe nobody else will. I'm not comfortable assuming that someone will help if I don't. :)

[Rovy]

fair enough. Maybe I'll get bored one day and see if I can write a little function to determine if runs were earned or not :P

[Clay Dreslough]

This thread has a lot of different issues, so I'll call this "improved" for 10.25, but not "fixed".

For example, I've added code to re-assign the "responsible" pitcher on fielder's choices. If the starter was responsible for the runner on first, and the reliever comes in and there's a grounder to short, with the out at second base, the runner at first should STILL be the responsibility of the starter (even though he reached base while the reliever was on the mound). This is fixed in 10.25.

I'm also going to significantly re-work the Earned Run code. I'm getting into trouble by trying to figure out which runs are earned before the inning is over, and then locking in those values.

[Rovy]

Awesome.

I was thinking it over last night... do you want me to post the flowchart I was working on for determining earned/unearned runs?

[HoustonGM]

That'd be interesting to see.

[RAW]

Official Baseball Rule 10.16 gives the complete run down of earned and unearned runs. By the way, did you know that a run can be unearned by the team, but charged as an earned run to a relief pitcher giving it up.

Rule 10.16(i) Comment: It is the intent of Rule 10.16(i) to charge a relief pitcher with earned runs for which such relief pitcher is solely responsible. In some instances, runs charged as earned against the relief pitcher can be charged as unearned against the team. For example:
(1) With two out and Peter pitching, Abel reaches first base on a base on balls. Baker reaches first base on an error. Roger relieves Peter. Charlie hits a home run, scoring three runs. The official scorer shall charge two unearned runs to Peter, one earned run to Roger and three unearned runs to the team (because the inning should have ended with the third out when Baker batted and an error was committed).
(2) With two out, and Peter pitching, Abel and Baker each reach first base on a base on balls. Roger relieves Peter. Charlie reaches first base on an error. Daniel hits a home run, scoring four runs. The official scorer shall charge two unearned runs to Peter and two unearned runs to Roger (because the inning should have ended with the third out when Charlie batted and an error was committed).
(3) With none out and Peter pitching, Abel reaches first base on a base on balls. Baker reaches first base on an error. Roger relieves Peter. Charlie hits a home run, scoring three runs. Daniel and Edward strike out. Frank reaches first base on an error. George hits a home run, scoring two runs. The official scorer shall charge two runs, one of them earned, to Peter, three runs, one of them earned, to Roger and five runs, two of them earned, to the team (because only Abel and Charlie would have scored in an inning reconstructed without the errors).

[Rovy]

I meant the flowchart for programming purposes RAW.

[RAW]

Sorry, Rovy, I'm a complete computer imbecile.

[JustinM]

He might not, but I'd love to see that.