Greg Vaughn Playing SS?

[easy]

Yes it's true! In one of my league's the Tampa owner has Vaugn at SS. Strange thing is he is rated +5% on defense at the position with a RF of 5.02. Also on the scouting report page it only lists LF for defensive stats which of course shows 0 starts for 2002. How would we find out how many errors a guy has when he is playing out of position? Shouldn't a LF playing SS be a disaster waiting to happen? Anyone know how the mogul engine handles this?

[easy]

Thats what I was trying to explain. On the Defense page he is listed as playing 42 games at SS. He has a Range Factor of 5.02 and a +5% rating. He seems to have an normal # of DP's and PO's. If memory serves me, errors aren't listed there. When you check the scouting report, errors are listed on the bottom left, but only for the primary position, LF, for which he has 0 starts and no stats. So, two separate issues. He seems to be playing rather well when he shouldn't be. Also, could we have the scouting report show defensive stats regardless of the position played?

[euphoria13]

Check his fielding percentage. It is probably horrible.

[daedalus]

I think that's EXACTLY what easy is saying. A range factor of 5.02 (according to easy's post) and a range of +5% is not that bad at all. From my own teams, I have Edgar Renteria (B+ range) at ~5.5/+10% and Mark Loretta (B- range) at ~5.15/+10%. Obviously, we can't tell what Vaughn's error numbers were like, but it would be nice if it can be handled so that an outfielder (and not a very good one) trying to play shortstop would be properly penalized. Otherwise, that ends up penalizing the rest of us who're trying to play people at proper positions.

[Razon]

Originally posted by daedalus
Otherwise, that ends up penalizing the rest of us who're trying to play people at proper positions.

In the short term I agree with you on a penalty, but in the long run there should be no penalty. This game trys to simulate baseball as closely as possible to the real deal. In the game it happens over and over where players permanately change positions and do very well after a bit of practice. Basically what I'm getting at is there really is no proper position. If I want to play Mike Lieberthal as a center fielder than I can but I wouldn't expect him to be any good at it without alot of time in the position as he has been a catcher all his career. As far as showing his stats in the player profile, I agree that it should show his fielding stats for all positions that he has played in even if it was only for one game.



Raz

[takaplan]

Here's what happened to me:
I had Aubrey Huff when he was 23 years old. He was listed as a third basemen. I already had a superstar third basemen, so I put Huff at second every season. Now he is 28 years old and in his 5th season at 2nd base, and his position is now listed as second and it displays his stats from second. And he's pretty good at it- .979 career fielding % with only 36 errors in 400+ games.

[daedalus]

I absolutely agree that after a period of time, the player should be able to pick up the new position [I've seen and think the feature that takaplan talked about is absolutely awesome].

BUT . . .

While it would be fair to expect Mike Lieberthal to become a competent CF after a time. However, given his limitation [speed . . . or the lack thereof], it'd not be fair to expect him to be on par with, say, Marquis Grissom [ignoring for a moment the discussion of ability to read flyballs off the bat since, even with Jim Edmonds-like ability to read flyballs, most catchers would have difficulties getting to a lot of flyballs]. He may become a solid enough OF to become a + FIELDING OF but should not be able to become a + RANGE OF.

Coming back to easy's example. I can see an Andruw Jones becoming a + IF. He's 1) young enough to accept and be able to handle the change and 2) a good enough athelete to be able to handle the change. Whereas Greg Vaughn, a 30 year old not-so-great OF, shouldn't be able to field at roughly a B-/C+ level at SS.

[Razon]

Daedalus

I completely agree with you. I wasn't implying that I would move lieberthal to the outfield it was an outlandish example to make a point. I saw Clay's post in the other post so the situation will be taken care of to most of our relief.

Raz

[adam]

I've read some old stuff from Bill James (the stats guru) and his philosophy on defensive changing of positions..here's how it applies here:

1) Defence is a spectrum...pictured below (right is better, and C is off the spectrum)

1B-RF-LF-CF-3b-2b-SS

2) Players irl almost never move rightward. They move, as they get slower as they age, toward the left end. An example: Ernie Banks going from SS to 1b...or Cal Ripken from SS to 3b

3) Therefore, in keeping with reality, shifts leftward should be encouraged, and shifts rightward should be discouraged, both in range and percentage.

4) I don't think BM factors overall speed enough in defence...

5) I've seen some strange moves..,.Houston in FS1 had Daryle Ward playing 2b for years...but part of the high ERA's this sim seems to have is due to defenses being overstressed.

6) I think you should be able to establish a player with two positions, if they actually can play the positions. Craig Biggio should be able to be listed as a backup catcher, etc...

just some ideas on this!

sandon/adam