Duhbya expected to announce timetable for Iraq withdrawl on Wednesday.

[Jeff Olsen]

Slate (http://www.slate.com/id/2131125/)
Brace yourself for a mind-bog of sheer cynicism. The discombobulation begins Wednesday, when President George W. Bush is expected to proclaim, in a major speech at the U.S. Naval Academy, that the Iraqi security forces—which only a few months ago were said to have just one battalion capable of fighting on its own—have suddenly made uncanny progress in combat readiness. Expect soon after (if not during the speech itself) the thing that Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney have, just this month, denounced as near-treason—a timetable for withdrawal of American troops.

And so it appears (assuming the forecasts about the speech are true) that the White House is as cynical about this war as its cynical critics have charged it with being. For several months now, many of these critics have predicted that, once the Iraqis passed their constitution and elected a new government, President Bush would declare his mission complete and begin to pull out—this, despite his public pledge to "stay the course" until the insurgents were defeated.How many timetables will this make? Five?

I'll be pleasantly surprised if one is finally carried through instead of being continually pushed back.

[tigeraholic]

How many timetables will this make? Five?

I'll be pleasantly surprised if one is finally carried through instead of being continually pushed back.


I support what our troops are doing but I will be so glad when they get to come home.

[B. Gizzle]

I support what our troops are doing but I will be so glad when they get to come home.
I being Canadian, don't quite understand what you mean by support. Do you support the war, or does supporting the troops mean something else?

[tigeraholic]

I support their mission of rebuilding Iraq and once Iraq is in the position to run their country indapendently then I want our troops to come home.

[SFSteveG]

I support our troops too. By that I mean I support bringing all of them home as soon as possible. I believe that any patriotic American ought to believe that a single american life is more valuable than 1000 foreign lives and that before we go even so far as to spend money to give foreign people money and skills we need to do so for our own people.

[kingmob]

How many timetables will this make? Five?

I'll be pleasantly surprised if one is finally carried through instead of being continually pushed back.

i think congress will pull all funding for the sham war and people have already quit joining the military (except the illegals) ....that will end the war....sooner or later

[kingmob]

I support what our troops are doing but I will be so glad when they get to come home.


why???? so they can become cops and start torturing americans like they have learned to torture iraqis??....fvck em....they will get what they deserve...karma is a biotch
death by torture: media ignores hard evidence (http://www.counterpunch.org/phillips12022005.html)

[kingmob]

I being Canadian, don't quite understand what you mean by support. Do you support the war, or does supporting the troops mean something else?

i think tiger means that if you tie a yellow ribbon around your trees and put little plastic chinese made flags on your car....then that means you support the torture troops

[kingmob]

I support their mission of rebuilding Iraq and once Iraq is in the position to run their country indapendently then I want our troops to come home.

iraq has run there country independatly for over 5,000 yrs. why do they need us to help them build a mcdonalds and a wal-mart on every other street?

[tigeraholic]

Umm. it was sure nice not certain people around while it lasted.... :rolleyes:

[kingmob]

Umm. it was sure nice not certain people around while it lasted.... :rolleyes:

why?? because i dont march in lockstep with the govts. position in foreign policy?? maybe people like me should be drug off to the camps because of our seditious ideals.....that'll learn us ...right?

[Jeff Olsen]

why?? because i dont march in lockstep with the govts. position in foreign policy??:rolleyes:
No, it's because you're a squawking parrot. You're incapable of being original even when defending yourself! You sure Benjy and Frankie didn't switch your brain with a simple computer that says "government is evil" and "why?? because i dont march in lockstep??"
maybe people like me should be drug off to the camps because of our seditious ideals.....that'll learn us ...right?Drug, yes, but not off.

[kingmob]

:rolleyes:
No, it's because you're a squawking parrot. You're incapable of being original even when defending yourself! You sure Benjy and Frankie didn't switch your brain with a simple computer that says "government is evil" and "why?? because i dont march in lockstep??"Drug, yes, but not off.

i think i'm pretty original.....and yes the govt. is evil....i could list tons of stuff to prove my point.....just a couple are operation paperclip and operation northwoods.....google search these 2 and tell me it isnt evil

[Jeff Olsen]

i think i'm pretty originalSorry, paraphrasing stuff other people say and links to said stuff isn't original.
and yes the govt. is evil *squawk* the govt. is evil! the govt. is evil!*squawk*Polly wanna cracker?
i could list tons of stuff to prove my pointConjecture isn't proof.
just a couple are operation paperclip You'd rather those German scientists went to Russia?
and operation northwoodsOh, please. That was in 1962, the same year that some idiot parked a bunch of nuclear missiles there.

Don't bother trying to bring up the alleged plotting to shoot people in American streets and fake terrorism attacks, the only source for that is one guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Bamford).
Mr. Bamford's fans praise his ability to gather previously classified information through inside sources and FOIA requests.Could it be that some of it is made up just so he can sell more books?
Bamford's critics claim his conclusions are "overblown, undersourced or just wrong" to quote a review of his Pretext for War.Hmmm....

[kingmob]

ummm northwoods was a real plan that was greenlighted up to jfk and then jfk saw it and fired the people involved.....911 was an inside job to get us into war......
msmbc report of explosives inside the building.... (http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/december2005/051205foundbombs.htm)

[Jeff Olsen]

ummm northwoods was a real planDid I say it wasn't?
911 was an inside job to get us into war......An inside job by whom? And what of the Pentagon and Flight 93?

Please, surprise me, say something other than "the govt. did it."

[tigeraholic]

Wow Jeff way to blow him away! :p

[Jeff Olsen]

Wow Jeff way to blow him away! :p:)
If one would think on their own instead of just parroting rhetoric, they'd realize that the govt. isn't responsible for everything. Certainly not 9/11. For it to be true, they'd have to go through with a plan that had been "exposed" five months prior, not to mention all the millions that went into renovating the Pentagon only to blow it up and start all over.

Too bad king isn't capable of thinking on his own.

[kingmob]

Did I say it wasn't?An inside job by whom? And what of the Pentagon and Flight 93?

Please, surprise me, say something other than "the govt. did it."

when i say govt. i mean a small cabal of devil worshipping traitors.....most people in govt. are good people....but a small cabal have taken over......i think that elements in the vice presidents office, cia, mossad, mi6 and private contractors did it ..it was definately a global operation.....they are the only ones that can get norad to stand down....

the pentagon wasnt hit by a 767.... it was a cruise missile or global hawk drone......flight 93 was shot down by a north dakota air natl. guard unit called the happy hooligans.....the debris field was too massive to jibe with the official "lets roll BS" story........and what of building 7 that wasnt hit by anything? well heres a clip from a pbs show featuring larry silverstein the owner of the wtc complex admitting too pulling building 7 with pre-set explosives.....
silverstein admits to pulling building 7 (http://www.prisonplanet.com/pullit2.mp3)

911 was operation northwoods being put into action.....ask yourself qui bono?
who benefits

[kingmob]

:)
If one would think on their own instead of just parroting rhetoric, they'd realize that the govt. isn't responsible for everything. Certainly not 9/11. For it to be true, they'd have to go through with a plan that had been "exposed" five months prior, not to mention all the millions that went into renovating the Pentagon only to blow it up and start all over.

Too bad king isn't capable of thinking on his own.

yes it was amazing that them evil arabs hit the pentagon in the spot that was being renovated ...imagine that? coincidence? heres a pic of the exit hole that the missile made.....amazing it is perfectly round...
exit hole (http://www.thepowerhour.com/911_analysis/exit_hole.htm)

[Jeff Olsen]

yes it was amazing that them evil arabs hit the pentagon in the spot that was being renovated ...imagine that? coincidence? heres a pic of the exit hole that the missile made.....amazing it is perfectly round...
exit hole (http://www.thepowerhour.com/911_analysis/exit_hole.htm)king, I walked by the Pentagon on my way home that morning. It was not hit by any missile (http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.htm) nor a drone. If it was, what were pieces of a 757's landing gear doing inside the building (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/911_pentagon_757_plane_evidence.html)?

it was definately a global operationWait, lemme guess:
*squawk* Bilderbergers! *squawk*
flight 93 was shot down by a north dakota air natl. guard unit called the happy hooligansAh, but NORAD supposedly stood down and its interceptors travelled at half speed. So how'd a National Guard unit from ND manage to catch up to an aircraft in PA?
ask yourself qui bono?
who benefitsAsk yourself what's more likely: the governemnt used an operation that had been "exposed" four months prior or some Al-Queda dude read Bamford's book and thought it would be a good way to get the Infidels squabbling amongst themselves?

I'm sure you have a brain, king. Try actually using it for a change.

[Jeff Olsen]

Who benefits? Most of all whomever was shortselling AA and United stocks between 9/6 and 9/10 (http://www.snopes.com/rumors/putcall.htm).

[kingmob]

king, I walked by the Pentagon on my way home that morning. It was not hit by any missile (http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.htm) nor a drone. If it was, what were pieces of a 757's landing gear doing inside the building (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/911_pentagon_757_plane_evidence.html)?
Wait, lemme guess:Ah, but NORAD supposedly stood down and its interceptors travelled at half speed. So how'd a National Guard unit from ND manage to catch up to an aircraft in PA?Ask yourself what's more likely: the governemnt used an operation that had been "exposed" four months prior or some Al-Queda dude read Bamford's book and thought it would be a good way to get the Infidels squabbling amongst themselves?

I'm sure you have a brain, king. Try actually using it for a change.

how do the arab islamo-fascists benefit? look i dont know what really happened at the pentagon....do i believe the official story?....NO.....they lie about everything .....if a 767 really hit the pentagon then why wont they release the video of the plane hitting the most surveiled building in the country?....wheres the video......OOOO thats right they slapped natl. security on it.....just like they did at the OKC bombing.....

[kingmob]

Who benefits? Most of all whomever was shortselling AA and United stocks between 9/6 and 9/10 (http://www.snopes.com/rumors/putcall.htm).

yeah thats right....so why wasnt this investigated? mebbe it was because cia insiders were cashing in on death......?
hey jeff heres a great database of all things 911.....dig thru it a little and come to your own conclusions....cheers
911 archive (http://www.prisonplanet.com/911.html)

[Jeff Olsen]

how do the arab islamo-fascists benefit? Uh, they took down two famous Infidel landmarks, damaged a third, and got the Infidels squabbling amongst themselves about who really did it.
look i dont know what really happened at the pentagon I was there that morning. I saw the damage first-hand. I also talked to people who were right under the flightpath. It was hit by a freakin' jumbo jet! Again, how else would pieces of a 757's landing gear get inside?

How'd a guard unit from ND manage to catch up to a plane in PA after NORAD supposedly stood down and its interceptors flew at half speed?

Your scenario has more holes than Swiss cheese, even more than usual. Use your brain, king. Think for yourself. Trust me, it ain't gonna explode if you do.
if a 767 really hit the pentagon then why wont they release the video of the plane hitting the most surveiled building in the countryBecause they have a security fetish. They go into denial mode whenever anything unsual happens at or near one of their instillations. They also have a thing for being as low-key as possible.
heres a great database of all things 911Since when is "conjecture" the same as "data"?

[kingmob]

believe what ya want too....but there is no way in **** the towers fell because of the planes hitting them....its impossible....they were imploded....and what about building 7 ....classic implosion....ever seen a vegas casino imploded?....besides the owner of the wtc complex came out in a pbs special and said they blew up building 7 ......whats your thoughts about building 7?

[Jeff Olsen]

ever seen a vegas casino imploded?Yeah, they implode the whole thing at once, from bottom to top--not the top, pause, then the bottom like with the WTC buildings.
whats your thoughts about building 7#7 was demolished because it had become unstable due to debris hitting it.

[kingmob]

Yeah, they implode the whole thing at once, from bottom to top--not the top, pause, then the bottom like with the WTC buildings.#7 was demolished because it had become unstable due to debris hitting it.

no the wtc was imploded top to bottom......and answer me this.....how did they wire #7 on that day to implode it? it takes weeks to properly wire a building for implosion ......#7 was a perfect implosion.....to say that ran in there on 9/11 and wired it is impossible.....and how can 3 steel reinforced buildings collapse on one day from fire when it has never happened before?
fire has never caused a steel reinforced building to fall....ever.....
jet fuel doesnt burn hot enough to cause steel to melt.....if thats the case then every time you have a fire in your fireplace the grill would melt.....its physicaly impossible.....911 was a fairy tale......and #7 wasnt hit by anything

[tigeraholic]

fire has never caused a steel reinforced building to fall....ever.....
jet fuel doesnt burn hot enough to cause steel to melt.....if thats the case then every time you have a fire in your fireplace the grill would melt.....its physicaly impossible.....911 was a fairy tale......and #7 wasnt hit by anything


Do a little research King: Tower collapse explanation (http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/Eagar-0112.html)

[kingmob]

Do a little research King: Tower collapse explanation (http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/Eagar-0112.html)

total ********....steel columned towers do not melt in fire....its impossible

then explain to me why all the concrete was pulverised? if the building collapsed then it would be in a pile of concrete and steel ....that building was blown up
heres pics of a skyscraper in madrid that burned for days and didnt collapse
steel girded buildings do not fall because of fire (http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2005/02/310898.shtml)

if the fire was so outa control that it caused the building to collapse then how come this woman waving in the impact hole didnt get burned to a crisp?
woman waving from the impact hole in the tower (http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/january2005/170105womanwaving.htm)

[Jeff Olsen]

no the wtc was imploded top to bottomWatch the footage again, king. The tops go first.

I just watched the footage again myself to be sure. The tops fall into the impact area, then the rest of the buildings follow. This is not how buildings are imploded by demolition crews.
and how can 3 steel reinforced buildings collapse on one day from fire when it has never happened before?No building was ever hit by a jumbo jet before!
jet fuel doesnt burn hot enough to cause steel to meltNo, but it burns hot enough to soften steel. Soft steel + non-uniform temperatures = buckling. Buckling + supports severed by the impact = shifting loads. Shifting loads = look out below!

Why did it implode? From tiger's link:
First, the building is not solid; it is 95 percent air and, hence, can implode onto itself. Second, there is no lateral load, even the impact of a speeding aircraft, which is sufficient to move the center of gravity one hundred feet to the side such that it is not within the base footprint of the structure. Third, given the near free-fall collapse, there was insufficient time for portions to attain significant lateral velocity. To summarize all of these points, a 500,000 t structure has too much inertia to fall in any direction other than nearly straight down.
then explain to me why all the concrete was pulverised?Simple: it wasn't all pulverised. Besides, it was mostly steel. Steel that softened, buckled, shifted, and collapsed--top first.
if the fire was so outa control that it caused the building to collapse then how come this woman waving in the impact hole didnt get burned to a crisp?All I see in the video is a hole and the fire. The still is so grainy that it could be anything, reminds me of pictures that supposedly are of UFOs. He||, I woudn't put it past prisonplanet to put up a pic that had been photoshopped.
heres pics of a skyscraper in madrid that burned for days and didnt collapseGee, you don't suppose that was because the heat was distrbuted much more evenly than in the WTC?
total ********A subject you're familiar with by being so full of it, I'm sure.

[kingmob]

1.exactly it was blown up from the top down
2.the empire state building got hit hit by a b-52 in the 40's
what about the military plane that hit a building in iran.....it didnt fall
still standing (http://www.oudaily.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2005/12/06/439640652f0b8)
3. impossible ...jet fuel cannot burn hot enough to soften high grade industrial steel....they were blown up
professional demolition of wtc7 (http://www.prisonplanet.com/011904wtc7.html)


4.that buildings core was as solid as a brick **** house....


5. that humungous cloud rolling down the streets of manhatten was pulverised concrete

6. there are none so blind that can see but refuse to look....what****inever

i think bottom line here is that for you guys to accept the fact that elements of our govt. murdered 1000's of people to get a never ending war on a political ideal would cause you to admit that your whole belief system is based on lies and BS......then why do the majority of americans in polls think that the govt. did 911....i think deep down y'all know im right and it scares you.....cheerio

[Jeff Olsen]

1.exactly it was blown up from the top downNo, the top goes into the impact area, then the rest of the buildings follow. That doesn't follow any sort of implosion by demolition crew I've ever seen.

2.the empire state building got hit hit by a b-52 in the 40's
what about the military plane that hit a building in iran.....it didnt fallMilitary planes are not jumbo jets. That B-52? It was low on fuel and crashed into a building that had been desinged to withstand such an impact. The WTC was not designed to withstand the impact of a jumbo jet and the resulting fire from a full load of fuel.
3. impossible ...jet fuel cannot burn hot enough to soften high grade industrial steelWrong. Steel softens at less than 600°F, a temparature which jet fuel certainly can reach.
http://www.septembereleventh.org/newsarchive/2004-11-11-ryan.phpKevin Ryan of Underwriters Laboratories, huh? UL says that they have no evidence that any firm tested materials used to build the towers and that Kevin Ryan was never involved in their fire protection division in any way. In fact, he was canned for attempting to cast doubt on the federal investigation (http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20041124095100856). Not a glowng reference there in the least.
4.that buildings core was as solid as a brick **** house....Wrong again! What do you thing "steel framed skyscraper" means?
The University of Sydney (http://www.civil.usyd.edu.au/wtc.shtml)
(Taken from www.skyscraper.org)

The structural system, deriving from the I.B.M. Building in Seattle, is impressively simple. The 208-foot wide facade is, in effect, a prefabricated steel lattice, with columns on 39-inch centers acting as wind bracing to resist all overturning forces; the central core takes only the gravity loads of the building. A very light, economical structure results by keeping the wind bracing in the most efficient place, the outside surface of the building, thus not transferring the forces through the floor membrane to the core, as in most curtain-wall structures. Office spaces will have no interior columns. In the upper floors there is as much as 40,000 square feet of office space per floor. The floor construction is of prefabricated trussed steel, only 33 inches in depth, that spans the full 60 feet to the core, and also acts as a diaphragm to stiffen the outside wall against lateral buckling forces from wind-load pressures."The "core" of the WTC was the bit that immediately surrounded the two banks of elevators and acted as a huge pillar, supporting vertical loads but not horizontal.
typical WTC floorplan (http://www.civil.usyd.edu.au/latest/wtc_plan.jpg)

Horizontal load support came from tubular perimeter columns. They were hollow, like a bird's bones. A significant number of these columns were damaged on impact, which weakened the entire system. Eventually, the floors above the impact area collapsed, creating an impact load on the floor immediately below, resulting in a chain-reaction pancake effect. This is why there was a slight pause between the tops of the towers collapsing and the rest coming down.
5. that humungous cloud rolling down the streets of manhatten was pulverised concreteQuite right, but that's not where all the concrete went.
6. there are none so blind that can see but refuse to lookExcept those who only know to parrot what others say without thinking for themselves.
i think bottom line here is that for you guys to accept the fact that elements of our govt. murdered 1000's of people to get a never ending war on a political ideal would cause you to admit that your whole belief system is based on lies and BS......then why do the majority of americans in polls think that the govt. did 911....i think deep down y'all know im right and it scaresNo, the bottom line here is that you don't know what the he|| you're talking about. As usual.
cheerio'Samatter, can't deal with all the holes in your argument?

[kingmob]

believe what ya want.....it is a fact that govts. conduct state sponsored terrorism all the time to keep there people in line or to get support for a BS war....thats all.......it doesnt matter what i post you'll just say that aliens from the planet krytode did it.....

[Jeff Olsen]

it is a fact that govts. conduct state sponsored terrorism Yeah, some do. The former government in Iraq, for example.

Our government staged 9/11? Please. Use your brain, king. Think for yourself. Look at the holes in your argument.

If you insist on just being a parrot and not think for yourself, I hear there's this guy named Frankenstein who needs a brain for a lab experiment.

[kingmob]

Yeah, some do. The former government in Iraq, for example.

Our government staged 9/11? Please. Use your brain, king. Think for yourself. Look at the holes in your argument.

If you insist on just being a parrot and not think for yourself, I hear there's this guy named Frankenstein who needs a brain for a lab experiment.

oh yeah? what terrorism did iraq do?
what holes? 911 was a globalist operation to wage war....tonkin gulf never happened and it was used to justify invading vietnam......elements of the govt. proposed to commit terrorist acts to blame cuba via operation northwoods......the govt. intercepted messages and knew japan was going to attack pearl harbor and they let it happen to get us into ww2.....Mckinley blew up the maine in havana harbor to get us into war with spain......hitler burned the reichstag blamed his enemies and seized dictatorial power.......nero burned rome and then blamed it on the christians to get an excuse to feed them to the lions...state sponsered terrorism has happened all thoughout history......putin got caught blowing up apt. buildings in moscow to blame the chechens........the israelis attacked the uss liberty in the late 60's to blame it on egypt to get us into there war vs. the arabs....this govt. blew up the building in okc to blame it on domestic extremists to get gun laws and police state funding....

so keep believing that govt. is great and it never does wrong......your a fool

[Jeff Olsen]

oh yeah? what terrorism did iraq do?Toldja that one of Al-Queda's goals was to get us Infidels squabbling amongst ourselves about who's really responsible. Looks like it worked.
what holes?Wake up and pay attention.

I witnessed the Pentagon's damage first-hand. I spoke to people that were directly under the flightpath. There were parts of a 757 landing gear inside the building. There was a big scorch mark on the heliport grass where the plane (not a missile or a drone) hit before striking the buildng.

How did a guard unit from ND manage to catch up to Flight 93 in PA after NORAD supposedly stood down and had its interceptors flying at half-speed?

UL says that they have no evidence that any firm tested materials used to build the towers and that Kevin Ryan was never involved in their fire protection division in any way. In fact, he was canned for attempting to cast doubt on the federal investigation.

The "core" of the WTC was the bit that immediately surrounded the two banks of elevators and acted as a huge pillar, supporting vertical loads but not horizontal. Horizontal load support came from tubular perimeter columns. They were hollow, like a bird's bones. A significant number of these columns were damaged on impact, which weakened the entire system. Eventually, the floors above the impact area collapsed, creating an impact load on the floor immediately below, resulting in a chain-reaction pancake effect. This is why there was a slight pause between the tops of the towers collapsing and the rest coming down.

etc. etc.


tonkin gulf never happened and it was used to justify invading vietnamThere was an attack by Vietnamese forces in Tonkin. It's the second attack that never happened.
elements of the govt. proposed to commit terrorist acts to blame cuba via operation northwoodsAccording to one guy. Funny how there's no corroborating evidence
the govt. intercepted messages and knew japan was going to attack pearl harbor and they let it happen to get us into ww2Yeah, they intercepted messages about an attack but not the location. What were they supposed to do? Lock down everyting that faced the Pacific?
Mckinley blew up the maine in havana harbor to get us into war with spainMcKinley was opposed to war. Why would he do that?
hitler burned the reichstag blamed his enemies and seized dictatorial powerSo? Hitler was a maniac bent on world domination. And what was a naked Dutch guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marinus_van_der_Lubbe) doing behind the building?
nero burned rome and then blamed it on the christians to get an excuse to feed them to the lionsNero wasn't even in Rome when the fire started!
state sponsered terrorism has happened all thoughout historyI already agreed with this. There is no evidence that it happened here.
the israelis attacked the uss liberty in the late 60'sYeah, the Israeli military had standing orders to attack any unidentified vessel near the shore.
to blame it on egypt to get us into there war vs. the arabsThen why'd their vessels fly Israeli flags and not Egyptian ones when approaching the ship?
this govt. blew up the building in okc to blame it on domestic extremistsYeah, suuure they did. AmFo is ridculously easy to make and there had been an attempted bombing of a federal building in LA about a decade before OKC. The idiot parked his pickup in front of a fire station. Had he not done that, the blast would have made OKC look like a firecracker.

so keep believing that govt. is great and it never does wrongOh, I know our governemnt does wrong and believe that they still haven't told us the truth about JFK and Roswell. But there's wrong and there's wrong, I don't believe they've done wrong.
your a foolWho's the bigger fool? One who investigates questionable sources on the internet or one who blindly accpets everything he sees on the internet as long it meshes with his conventional wisdom?

[kingmob]

first off Al-queda was funded and created by our govt....back in the 80's there were articles about how osama was a great freedom fighter.....and sides al-queda literally means ...the base...or data base of arab merceneries in the employ of the cia.....iraq was a secular country that showed tolerence to christians....saddams right hand man tariq aziz is a christian....saddam kept the radicals out of his country.....but now the radicals are in control....according to plan.....

******** i've seen pictures of the half finished wtc buildings and the center support column was solid....that is a blatant lie

the tonkin gulf incident was all lies and BS....there are tapes of lbj and mcnamara confirming this
tonkin gulf didnt happen (http://www.prisonplanet.com/tonkin_incident_might_not_have_occured.htm)

northwoods was a real plan to trick the public into supporting war with cuba
abc article about northwoods (http://www.prisonplanet.com/us_military_drafted_plans_to_terrorize_us_cities.htm)

after digging around i found this pearl harbor smoking gun (http://www.prisonplanet.com/the_mccollum_memo.htm) there was a plan too get japan too attack the usa ...and it worked

mckinley was not opposed to war....the sinking of the maine was a pretext for us expansionism in the area.....it was useful propaganda
battleship maine explodes in havana harbor feb. 15 1898 (http://havanajournal.com/politics_comments/A3041_0_5_0_M/)

the dutch guy was a patsy who didnt do it.....if hitler was such a maniac then why were elements of the american elite funding him?...people like ummm prescott bush....W's grandpa
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prescott_Bush
Harriman Bank was the main Wall Street connection for German companies and the varied U.S. financial interests of Fritz Thyssen, who had been an early financial backer of the Nazi party until 1938, but who by 1939 had fled Germany and was bitterly denouncing Hitler. Dealing with Nazi Germany wasn't illegal when Hitler declared war, but, six days after Pearl Harbor, President Franklin D. Roosevelt activated the Trading With the Enemy Act. On October 20, 1942, the U.S. government ordered the seizure of Nazi German banking operations in New York City.

Prescott Bush's business interests seized under the act in October and November 1942 included:

Union Banking Corporation (UBC) (for Thyssen and Brown Brothers Harriman)
Holland-American Trading Corporation (with Harriman)
the Seamless Steel Equipment Corporation (with Harriman)
Silesian-American Corporation (with Walker)
Bush's interest in UBC consisted of one share. For it, he was reimbursed $1,500,000. These assets were later used to launch Bush family investments in the Texas energy industry. There is some question as to the amount paid for the 1 share out of 4,000 in the bank, with some suggesting the $1.5 million figure is simple fiction, as the Union Bank was definitely not sold for $6 billion after WW II.

The New York Herald-Tribune referred to the German industrialist, Fritz Thyssen, as "Hitler's Angel" and mentioned Bush only as an employee of the investment banking firm Thyssen used in the USA. The label was ironic, since by the time the Tribune article appeared, Hitler had turned on Thyssen and imprisoned him. Shortly after George W. Bush's election as U.S. president, Canadian bloggers, apparently affiliated with perennial presidential candidate Lyndon LaRouche, began a determined effort to circulate reports that Prescott Bush himself had been known as "Hitler's Angel".

It could be argued that Prescott Bush's motivations with regard to the Nazis were strictly financial and not philosophical in nature. There have been accusations that Prescott Bush was a eugenicist, dating back to a political attack leveled against him during his sons' 1980 campaign. Bush was an acquaintance of Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood and herself an avowed eugenicist. Margaret Sanger is on record favoring infanticide, compulsory sterilization, and (arguably) genocide [1]. These accusations have been denounced by the Bush family, who indicate that Prescott Bush's acquaintance with Sanger were a result of his pro-choice beliefs. In fact, Prescott Bush served as Treasurer for Planned Parenthood's first national fund raising campaign in 1947 [2]

nero did burn rome and blamed the christians ...because the christians were becoming too powerful
nero fiddled and rome burned (http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/christians.htm)

the israelis attacked the liberty using unmarked planes and boats.....the liberty was flying the american flag....
dead in the water (http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/features/dead_in_the_water.shtml)

o yeah?? if okc went down like the govt. said it did then why did they pull unexploded bombs out of the building....as reported by local okc news...check it out
okc coverup (http://www.welfarestate.com/okc/)

our govt. has done a WHOLE lot wrong....which run the gamut from the anthrax mailings....to releasing bio weapons in the ny subway in 60's if i remember right....to infecting black men with syphilus and then watching them die.....and on and on

trust me i aint no fool.....and i dont really believe your a fool either ....its just that your belief system is very dogmatic.....not as bad as most though.....cheers

[Jeff Olsen]

Heya, heya, heya! Step right up! See the net-dwelling conspiracy freak spin facts to suit his conventional wisdom! Watch as he inserts his entire forearms in his ears! Heya, heya, heya!

[kingmob]

fvck u ....is that all you got....INSULTS?? i posted a wikpedia entry about prescott (skull n bones) bush.....conspiracy freak? come on did you even look at any of my links....?

[Jeff Olsen]

i posted a wikpedia entry about prescott (skull n bones) bushSo? They let anybody post a Wikipedia entry.
come on did you even look at any of my links....?Not worth the bother. If I disagree with them, which I will do--at least in part--you'll either: spin more, ignore what I say, ignore what I say and go off on some unrelated tangent, or all of the above.You ain't nothin' but a sideshow, Bob.

[kingmob]

so you dont believe dubya's grandpa was busted for trading with the enemy?
you dont believe the israilis attacked the liberty with us collusion all the way upto lbj?
i know it sucks to know that your teaching(programming) in school is mostly BS but it looks its still working for you

[Jeff Olsen]

i know it sucks to know that your teaching(programming) in school is mostly BS but it looks its still working for youI don't usually do this but: LOL! High school was nearly 20 years ago. I hardly remember a thing.

I come to my own conclusions by doing independent research and finding the most probable answer. 'Tis a pity you're incapable of doing that yourself. Face it, king, you're sheeple and the a-hole you're following belongs to Alex Jones.

[kingmob]

puhlease .....get over yourself mr. govt. slave

[Jeff Olsen]

puhlease .....get over yourself mr. govt. slaveI just work for 'em. I'm nobody's slave. I think for myself.

Watch out for those sudden stops, king, lest you get your nose up Alex's butt!

Whoops, too late.

[tigeraholic]

so you dont believe dubya's grandpa was busted for trading with the enemy?
you dont believe the israilis attacked the liberty with us collusion all the way upto lbj?
i know it sucks to know that your teaching(programming) in school is mostly BS but it looks its still working for you



Umm I belive he was responding to your Skull n' Bones BS.... :rolleyes:

[Jeff Olsen]

Umm I belive he was responding to your Skull n' Bones BS.... :rolleyes:Actually, I'm not sure what I was responding to. Hard to tell with him. :)

[tigeraholic]

Actually, I'm not sure what I was responding to. Hard to tell with him. :)


Thats what gets me with him, he wants to argue a point and you bring up something that does not agree with what he is preachin, then he spins off in another direction!!! :rolleyes:

[kingmob]

Umm I belive he was responding to your Skull n' Bones BS.... :rolleyes:

what skull n bones BS? they run the country....there real name is The Order of Death

[kingmob]

Thats what gets me with him, he wants to argue a point and you bring up something that does not agree with what he is preachin, then he spins off in another direction!!! :rolleyes:

i know i jump around a lot but the globalists are attacking from all directions....the own the cops, the courts, most corporations, they print the money for the world, schools, think tanks, health care systems, big agra business, intelligence services, defense industry, religious instititutions, and since theyown most everything the only thing left is the minds and souls of men.....while were busy playing checkers the globalists are busy playing multi- faceted chess......cheers

[dps]

so you dont believe dubya's grandpa was busted for trading with the enemy?
you dont believe the israilis attacked the liberty with us collusion all the way upto lbj?


Technically, Prescott Bush wasn't "busted for trading with the enemy". Sure, he, and a lot of other Americans, had business dealling with Germany in the period 1933-41 BUT at that time Germany wasn't our enemy and it was perfectly legal to have normal business relations with them. After Germany declared war on us, it THEN became illegal to deal with them, but as far as I know Prescott Bush didn't do business with them after it became illegal.

As for the U.S.S. Liberty, I believe that the Isrealis attacked it, but there is absolutely no reason to think that they did so in collusion with our government. There is good reason to think that our government colluded with them in covering up what happened, though.

[dps]

jet fuel doesnt burn hot enough to cause steel to melt.

Wrong. Even a standard house fire can burn hot enough to melt steel. That's why if you go to a bank for a mortgage, they will only finance 1/2 the purchase price of a steel-frame house, vice the full price of a wood-frame house. A fire that only chars a wooden frame, leaving the building structurally sound, can melt a steel frame. Not, as far as I know, completely melt it, but soften it enough that the structure is no longer sound.

I know it doesn't sound right. I had trouble believing it when I first heard it, but apparantly, its true.

[kingmob]

Technically, Prescott Bush wasn't "busted for trading with the enemy". Sure, he, and a lot of other Americans, had business dealling with Germany in the period 1933-41 BUT at that time Germany wasn't our enemy and it was perfectly legal to have normal business relations with them. After Germany declared war on us, it THEN became illegal to deal with them, but as far as I know Prescott Bush didn't do business with them after it became illegal.

As for the U.S.S. Liberty, I believe that the Isrealis attacked it, but there is absolutely no reason to think that they did so in collusion with our government. There is good reason to think that our government colluded with them in covering up what happened, though.

well yeah hitler was times man of the year in 1933 i think.....yeah because the govt. seized the corporate assets in 1942....they couldnt trade with the nazis anymore.....this is a good article from england where they got the proof from the national archives
how bush's grandfather helped hitler rise to power (http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1312540,00.html)

no the attack wasnt in collusion...the israelis were conducting a false flag operation and then lbj ordered one of his admirals to let that goddamned ship sink to the bottom....because we arent going to war with our ally over this ****....to paraphrase .....ya dont need any enemies with nice allies like these

[kingmob]

Wrong. Even a standard house fire can burn hot enough to melt steel. That's why if you go to a bank for a mortgage, they will only finance 1/2 the purchase price of a steel-frame house, vice the full price of a wood-frame house. A fire that only chars a wooden frame, leaving the building structurally sound, can melt a steel frame. Not, as far as I know, completely melt it, but soften it enough that the structure is no longer sound.

I know it doesn't sound right. I had trouble believing it when I first heard it, but apparantly, its true.

if that was true then why doesnt your bar-b-que grill or the iron grate in the fireplace melt?...those buildings were packed with asbestos and sprinkler systems ...backup generators.....and you believe that steel girded beams melted?....impossible.....i think the cost of the remediation of the huge asbestos removal problem was gonna be cost prohibitive so not just blow it up.....and blame the evil boogey men working with the cia,mossad and mi6...
and then use it for a never ending war on the terrorists but since there no real terrorists (not counting the real arabs who are fighting back from being invaded on a lie)
....then they unleash the police state and treat us like there slaves.....they will have a problem when they start the big roundups of people......we're still armed and most of love our families and will fight for them when the nice men in black ski masks come kickin the door in.....at least the nazis knocked first

[robinhoodnik]

Yeah, what he said! They just pull the pre-formed steel straight out the ground. Of course heat doesn't affect steel! Why; next you'll be telling us the moon isn't made of green cheese or that there ain't no tooth fairy. Jeesh! :rolleyes:

[dps]

if that was true then why doesnt your bar-b-que grill or the iron grate in the fireplace melt?...

Because an out-of-control building fire is hotter than a cooking fire.

[Jeff Olsen]

Because an out-of-control building fire is hotter than a cooking fire.Did you know that there have been cases of steel cookware melting on top of an ordinary gas stove?

[robinhoodnik]

Did you know that there have been cases of steel cookware melting on top of an ordinary gas stove?
He's also left out of his equation the weight of the undamaged structure pressing down on the heated steel. Also left out the fact that 30 year old asbestos spray (if it was the spray on type) comes off very easily (even new spray isn't all that sticky). If you put an airplane into a building you will lose a significant amount of the asbestos. The asbestos used in these types of buildings is only designed to prevent a normal fire, not a jet fuel explosion and the resulting massive airflow through the now wide open building. It probably acted like a chimney as well, sucking the fresh air directly up through the bottom and plane opened sides straight through the now open roof access doors (I doubt that those who made it to the roof closed the doors after them.). You aren't dealing with a wood fired flame here. If you heated your fireplace grate over a jet fuel flame for an hour you could shape it in any manner you chose to with very little effort.

[robinhoodnik]

To clarify a point, It was instantly super heated then had extreme heat maintained for approximately an hour. The jet fuel would have been atomized and burned nearly instantly.

[Jeff Olsen]

Check these out:

SEAU News - The Newsletter of the Structural Engineers Association of Utah (http://www.seau.org/SEAUNews-2001-10.pdf) (pdf)
As of 21 days after the attack, molten steel was still running. What concrete that wasn't pulverized into dust will continue to be removed for weeks to come.
American Free Press (http://www.americanfreepress.net/09_03_02/NEW_SEISMIC_/new_seismic_.html)
In the basements of the collapsed towers, where the 47 central support columns connected with the bedrock, hot spots of “literally molten steel” were discovered more than a month after the collapse. Such persistent and intense residual heat, 70 feet below the surface, in an oxygen starved environment, could explain how these crucial structural supports failed.

Peter Tully, president of Tully Construction of Flushing, N.Y., told AFP that he saw pools of “literally molten steel” at the World Trade Center.

Tully was contracted after the Sept. 11 tragedy to re move the debris from the site.

Tully called Mark Loizeaux, president of Controlled Demolition, Inc. (CDI) of Phoenix, Md., for consultation about removing the debris. CDI calls itself “the innovator and global leader in the controlled demolition and implosion of structures.”

Loizeaux, who cleaned up the bombed Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, arrived at the WTC site two days later and wrote the clean-up plan for the entire operation.

AFP asked Loizeaux about the report of molten steel on the site.

“Yes,” he said, “hot spots of molten steel in the basements.”

These incredibly hot areas were found “at the bottoms of the elevator shafts of the main towers, down seven [basement] levels,” Loizeaux said.

The molten steel was found “three, four, and five weeks later, when the rubble was being removed,” Loizeaux said. He said molten steel was also found at 7 WTC, which collapsed mysteriously in the late afternoon.

Loizeaux told AFP that the steel-melting fires were fueled by “paper, carpet and other combustibles packed down the elevator shafts by the tower floors as they ‘pancaked’ into the basement.”This guy Loizeux, who implodes buildings for a living, apparently doesn't believe that the WTC was imploded.
Waste Age (http://www.wasteage.com/mag/waste_dday_ny_sanitation/)
[F]for about two and a half months after the attacks, in addition to its regular duties, NYDS played a major role in debris removal — everything from molten steel beams to human remains — running trucks back and forth between Ground Zero and Fresh Kills landfill, which was reopened to accommodate the debris.
Johns Hopkins Magazine (http://web.archive.org/web/20030407010827/http://iws1.jhsph.edu/magazineSpED/Welch.htm)
"Fires are still actively burning and the smoke is very intense," reports Alison Geyh, PhD. "In some pockets now being uncovered, they are finding molten steel."
Structural News (http://web.archive.org/web/20030422113455/http://www.istructe.org.uk/about/files/president/Tour-2002-NewYork.pdf) (pdf)
Dr Eaton said: "We were given fascinating insight into what had been happening at the site. Our hosts, under the firm's principal engineer George Tamaro (F), had been consistently involved at Ground Zero for several months. They had been called in as foundation engineers within a week of 11 September, and had spent several months examining the stability of the debris and the diaphragm wall all around the site, commonly known as the "bathtub". They had been key individuals in advising the excavation of the site, with a great deal of care being needed before debris could be removed in order to maintain the stability of the original slurry walls

"They showed us many fascinating slides," he continued, "ranging from molten metal which was still red hot weeks after the event, to 4-inch thick steel plates sheared and bent in the disaster."

Oh, and that building in Madrid? Looks to me like the steel parts did collapse and the rest was held up by concrete (http://www.tribulaciones.org/life/madrid-windsor2.jpg).

[robinhoodnik]

And before the "it's fire retardant" angle comes into play regarding materials inside the building. Fire retardant does not mean fire proof. Same with many materials used elsewhere. Wiring for example, with a plenum casing is often erroneously thought to be fire proof. It isn't. Plenum cable doesn't produce toxic smoke. It will burn. Same with most other materials if given enough heat.

[kingmob]

Yeah, what he said! They just pull the pre-formed steel straight out the ground. Of course heat doesn't affect steel! Why; next you'll be telling us the moon isn't made of green cheese or that there ain't no tooth fairy. Jeesh! :rolleyes:

well then why didnt this fire bring down this building.....it burned at 800 degree celsius ....look at these pics
madrid fire 2-13-05 (http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/spain_fire_2005.html)

[kingmob]

Because an out-of-control building fire is hotter than a cooking fire.

like this one? (http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/spain_fire_2005.html)

[kingmob]

Did you know that there have been cases of steel cookware melting on top of an ordinary gas stove?

800 degrees celcius (http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/spain_fire_2005.html)

[kingmob]

He's also left out of his equation the weight of the undamaged structure pressing down on the heated steel. Also left out the fact that 30 year old asbestos spray (if it was the spray on type) comes off very easily (even new spray isn't all that sticky). If you put an airplane into a building you will lose a significant amount of the asbestos. The asbestos used in these types of buildings is only designed to prevent a normal fire, not a jet fuel explosion and the resulting massive airflow through the now wide open building. It probably acted like a chimney as well, sucking the fresh air directly up through the bottom and plane opened sides straight through the now open roof access doors (I doubt that those who made it to the roof closed the doors after them.). You aren't dealing with a wood fired flame here. If you heated your fireplace grate over a jet fuel flame for an hour you could shape it in any manner you chose to with very little effort.

more people will die of the asbestos than died in the globalist attack (http://www.mesolink.org/mesothelioma-news/092304.html)

[kingmob]

To clarify a point, It was instantly super heated then had extreme heat maintained for approximately an hour. The jet fuel would have been atomized and burned nearly instantly.

burned for 10 hours....didnt blow up....still standing.....wtc were demo'ed (http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/spain_fire_2005.html)

[robinhoodnik]

burned for 10 hours....didnt blow up....still standing.....wtc were demo'ed (http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/spain_fire_2005.html)
This building is only 32 stories. Looks like it went from the top down as well. Not as much stress on the middle floors if the top burned first. Very different circumstances as well.

[kingmob]

This building is only 32 stories. Looks like it went from the top down as well. Not as much stress on the middle floors if the top burned first. Very different circumstances as well.

show me one stell girded building that fell because of fire?....you cant because the first 3 to fail were on 911.....what about building 7 ?

[Jeff Olsen]

Funny how whatreallyhappened.com doesn't show any clear pictures after the fire was out (http://www.tribulaciones.org/life/madrid-windsor2.jpg). What's that hanging off the top of the building? Looks like about half of the steel façade to me.

Why didn't it undergo a complete collapse?

The building was of steel-reinforced concrete design behind a steel façade. Pound for pound, the WTC contained less concrete and much more steel. Furthermore, the Windsor was built with two massive reinforced concrete slabs, one between the second and third floors; the second between the 16th and 17th. There was a partial collapse of floors 17 to 32 when the steel perimeter columns buckled and collapsed but the collapse stopped at the top slab. Coincidence? I think not.

But the fire had spread down to the third floor and the lower slab! Shouldn't the steel perimeter columns have collapsed down there, too?

At the time of the fire, the Windsor was being refurbished to bring it up to fire code. This required the installation of fire protection to the perimeter steel columns & the internal steel beams, a sprinkler system, and a new aluminum cladding system. Except for parts of the 9th and 15th floors, all steel from 17 down had been brought up to code.

[dannymac910]

Holy poop!

[RedsoxRockies]

wtf?

[HoustonGM]

Please stop resurrecting old threads.
.

[tigeraholic]

We used to have some pretty dramatic debates here. Now it is all useless dribble....

[RedsoxRockies]

There is still some good debates. Why don't you try and start one?

[Rongar]

I being Canadian, don't quite understand what you mean by support. Do you support the war, or does supporting the troops mean something else?

B.G. it's exactly what our own Canadian politicians are doing when they piously declare support for our troops in Afghanistan ...it's called "Wrapping yourself in the flag", so that no one dare criticize you, for fear of being called "unpatriotic"

[HoustonGM]

B.G. it's exactly what our own Canadian politicians are doing when they piously declare support for our troops in Afghanistan ...it's called "Wrapping yourself in the flag", so that no one dare criticize you, for fear of being called "unpatriotic"
You're responding to something that's from like 3 years ago ;) :p

[RedsoxRockies]

Haha LOL