An array of problems

[tysok]

I bought this game, knowing what was said in the forums about it but not really caring too much. I don't know much about football I just play around, but from what little I do know... this game really is bad. A lot of it can't be seen in the demo, if it was I wouldn't have bought it. Here's some problems... and, trust me, if I knew anything about football I'm sure there would be far more.

I've played about 7 seasons, 3 different league startups.
First, after just 2 seasons in my first league everyone was over the salary cap. Except, of course, me. I can't even sign draft picks if it would put me over the cap, even if my intention is to trade them after signing... in a simulation such as this, where you can't negotiate with more than 1 player at a time you should really be able to go above the cap during the offseason and have to be under when starting and during the season. I'm certain that in reality teams could have contracts waiting to be signed for a few days until another contract goes through so they would remain under the cap... if in fact they can't sign over the cap at any time.
Also, the computer controlled teams can sign whatever draft picks they like regardless if they have cash for signing bonuses (which I can't do if I have negative cash), or if they're already over the cap limit (which I can't do).
Raising the cap limit by 20M just ended up with 6 seasons before everyone went over.

Second, it's far too easy to screw the computer teams... assuming they're under the cap limit (if they're over I can't trade with them, but they can still do whatever they like amongst each other). Even in the hardest mode I'm able to make a deal where I get 999 million dollars from them. But at the same time they're far too stingy with their draft picks in player involved trades. Here's an example.
Once I've screwed someone out of 999 million dollars, by offering them a star, taking a junk player and 999M, I can then buy the draft picks but hard as **** to trade for them. Situation: 2 stars. In trading block each player by themselves will get me 15M from Denver. Total 30M from Denver for these players. I offer these 2 players for their #1 draft pick, they refuse. I offer them ONLY 25M for their draft pick, they accept. So they'll give me 30M for these 2 stars, but not their pick... but they'll take 25M for their pick. They want those 2 stars plus 2 other stars in a player trade.
There also needs to be a way to see where the computer thinks teams are deficient, and their current draft pick number, on the trades page. I have, what I think, is a good set to be traded for a pick or a good player all set up in the trades screen but have to constantly exit out to other screens to find what any team is "looking for" or what their pick number may be. I'm constantly having to change screens and waste time, making off seasons take hours compared to the 30 minutes it takes to play the season, and I go game by game and analyze the unanalyzable which we'll get to.
When drafting I'm also having to jump back and forth between my team and the picks, my team should be up as well so I can easily see if someone is better than someone current, or more easily find where I need to use this pick.

Third, analyzability... if that's a word. I can't tell anything by what's there. My number 2 back up tackle only has 4 tackles in 16 games... is that good or bad? Does he really suck or is he just not in very often? I don't know, all I know is he played in 16 games and had 4 tackles. My starters and the number 1 backup were never injured... did they just take all but a small percentage of the snaps? My number 1 WR isn't, the 1st backup has more receptions than either of my starters. His hands aren't better, his receiving isn't better... is the defense just covering the **** out of them or do they really suck. But when I put the 1st backup as my number 1 starter he gets nothing and the guy dropped to 1st backup gets more... I have no way of knowing whats going on here. In the last 3 seasons of my current league my 1st backup has had more than 1000 rec yards while both my starters have 500.
A guard that according to the player screen is "going to the hall of fame", 27 years old shows 18 sacks allowed, while the other guard, center, and both tackles show no sacks allowed. What does this stat mean? Is this guard taking bribes from defensive linemen? Is his 98 rating on pass blocking not good enough? I think they're picking on him cuz his name is Bush... cept his name isn't Bush isn't Tenuto.
My defense was ranked 2nd two seasons ago, points against two seasons ago was 10.6. With the exception of one CB they're all under 30 years old and still show outstanding ratings. All are signed to come back, last season points against 25.6 and defense rated 27th. This season with the same crew defense rated 1st and points against 9.6. 2 seasons ago my defensive line had 20 to 25 tackles a piece, last season they had 30 to 35, this season 20 to 25.... one of the only numbers to measure the defensemen in stats is useless because if you suck more there's more tackles to be made. This is normal even in reality I would assume, but it's another point as to the uselessness of trying to analyze anything with what's there to be analyzed.

Fourth, fan loyalty seems to be messed up to an extent. To make an even playing field I set everyone to an A. After 5 seasons there's been a lot of change. The 4 teams who've made the playoffs each of those 5 are still at A. Those that have made it 4 times have fallen to a B. Those who've missed all 5 are at D. Not bad, but there's a few screwy ones... New England made the playoffs once, have been between 4 and 12 and 6 and 10 the other 4, still at a B. Cincinnati made the playoffs once, have been 3 and 13 twice, 7 and 9, and 4 and 12... still a B. Miami, one that's missed the playoffs 5 straight years has had a 9 and 7 record every year, but loyalty is D.

Then there's the fact there is no rewards. There is no pro bowl, except there apparently is. When simulating "through playoffs" it says playing super bowl, then playing pro bowl, then playing off season before it gives control back to you. No one appears to be in the pro bowl, no list, no news, no view of game... did we import players from Europe to play it?
In the draft where's any information about who's most likely to go first? That's a big part of football, everyone knows who's going in the top 3 at least if not who's going to be picked number 1. In these drafts I've yet to see the highest CSS rated player go first... so I never have any idea. If I want to trade up so I can get a player out of that draft I have to trade all the way to #1 no matter what.
There's only 4 columns on an any screen for information. I can see points for, against, defense rank and offense rank on the standings screen or another comination of 4. If I want to see my passing rank I have to change something... more constant change.
I can only look up ratings by minimum. I'm looking for a good backup I have to wade through a multitude of players, to make it easier I always try to trade for a new starter and make my current starter the backup.
In a lot of cases the order in which you can hit "Next player" on the player page is locked to something, so you have to constantly change in order to scroll through players. In the draft I can't scroll through all WR and look at their ratings on the player page, the "Next player" button is locked to the CSS rank (I think). Find players starts scrolling through that players team instead of the next center on the list. To compare I almost have to have a pad of paper here so I can make things easier on myself... strange that I do everything on the computer to make life easier but in playing a game I have to break out a pen and paper.
Players never retire from your team. This guy had been a stud forever but now his ratings were all 50s, he had 2 years left on his contract. I left him on for the season to be a nice guy to someone who meant so much, but he didn't retire. Another one I left on for the last year of his contract and at age 39 and ratings of 50 he asked for a 500k signing bonus and 1.3M a year for the next 2 years. Doesn't anyone retire without being told they suck now and should be croucheting at home instead?

Some of these general problems are in the baseball game too, so it may be a limitation by the structure of the coding... but at least the football problems should be fixed, or rather they should never have existed in a game that was sold for money.

[flobbio]

I couldnt agree more with what you said. I bought this game yesterday after several people on another site recommended it. I figured it would be at least as good as the baseball games which get good reviews. I must say that I am severely disappointed. Several times when I tried to do a fantasy draft my computer gets an error and says that the roster files cant be found or something along that effect. My greatest regret is that I didnt find this message board before I bought and downloaded the game. If I would have known the condition of this game, I would have waited for a later edition or put my hard earned money into a more polished game. What more can I say, Im totally soured of this experience and cant believe I paid 17.95 for this. Sportsmogul, you should be ashamed.

[tysok]

Oh my god in heaven. As if there weren't enough problems in my first few years I played, I've found more... it's at the end of my 10th year now and I'm deciding whether I bother continuing. I probably will, since there's probably even more by the time I get to 15. Here's another list of... well... here's a list. :)

An annoyance I ran into, I have no clue who has what draft pick until it's under way. Perhaps if I knew more about football I could figure it out, but as it is I had no clue. I wanted the #3 pick, but there were 6 teams tied at 5-11. Since there's no way to pause the draft until it's your turn you really need to know who's picking where before you start it. Preferrably when it's set, at the end of the season. I had 5 young guys I wasn't going to be able to resign, but wasn't able to trade them for a higher pick since I didn't know the order.

Tight ends were discussed somewhere else, I didn't notice it until after I'd simmed 5 seasons... and it's unbelievably right. There's a huge onslaught of tight ends in the drafts that are rated above any current player, but after the first season they appear to have gotten hit by a train in the offseason as their ratings look more like 42 year old punters.

Inflation! The cost of living increases are staggering. For the first 7 years I played I had the highest paid player in the game, a Safety with 95, 94, 85, 99 that was impacting the cap at 8 million. Now there are 35 people impacting over the 8 million mark, 19 over 10 million, and 1 guy impacting at 14 million that has never managed to play in more than 10 games a season. There is a 49 YEAR OLD PUNTER that's impacting at 11 million dollars. It's now the year 2016, in 2009 he played in one game, punted 1 ball 33 yds, and is now making more money than all but 16 other players. Now THAT is showing loyalty to your players... the guy should go in the hall of fame (assuming that the team ever stops offering him contract extensions) just for that alone.

That is a perfect lead in to another problem. The game is fond of old guys who can't lean over and tie their cleats anymore. There are 99 players that are over 40 years old. 50 of those are kickers or punters. None of the position players have an overall rating of more than 65, and none of them have ANY individual rating over 60. A vast majority of them are impacting the cap for 700 thousand plus.
Punters and kickers overall rating never seems to drop. They start at 100/100, and they turn 49 still having an overall rating of 100/100. Even if they can't kick the ball without breaking their foot anymore, they're still overall rated as 100/100.

The computer doesn't seem to realize that there is no penalty for releasing players. Although there's no way that this guy who's now 49 was signed when he was young and in his prime and it's just ending his contract. If a player becomes useless in the middle of his contract he can be cut. The computer doesn't seem to know this. Also the fact that there is no penalty for cutting the player means I sign everyone to 6 year deals no matter how old they are just so I can get the cap impact pushed down. Although since the computer doesn't have to worry about the cap, then why bother releasing anyone anyhow.

Player rating inflation. I used to have one of the 3 best cornerbacks in the league, his run defense was 72, pass rush at 61, pass coverage was 98, and turnovers was 95. There are now 41 CBs in the league that are that good minimum. Only 14 of those are over 30, and they're all under 33. There's also a player that's better than those numbers that's been sitting at free agency asking to impact the cap at 5M+ for the last season. Someone that good can't find a job. Another large increase is in wide receivers, again I had one of the top 5 with skills of 61 rushing, 92 receiving, 83 durability, 63 blocking, and 94 hands. There are now 52 players that are that good minimum. Only 12 are over 30, and none above 34.
But at the same time, some other key positions are getting progressively worse. No Quarterback breaks 80 on all 5 individual categorys, while 13 did just 4 seasons ago. Only 5 Runnings Backs break 90 on both rushing and hands, compared with 21 just 4 seasons ago.
However, Guards, Tackles, and Centers are flourishing at 90 pass and 90 rush blocking. Defensive ends that can play football are hard to come by, but there are 50 defensive tackles that have pass rush and run defense over 90. But Linebackers and Safeties with over 80 in all 4 categorys are on every street corner soliciting the public.
What did this translate into? My QB, one of the best in the league (which as stated above doesn't mean much) was 3rd this season in passing yards with almost 2400. My team as a whole, including my back up QB which is pretty good considering what I just found out about QBs in the league, passed for a whopping 2800 total yards this season. That's with 4 of those astounding 52 wide receivers in the corp.

There should be total TEAM stats. The best I can get is an average per game, that's good, but why can't I see what my total team did for the total season?

Another thing, my cap room changes constantly. I go in to the roster and it says I'm 2 million under the cap, I try to negotiate with my running back but he wants way too much money (I think) so I decline to go check other player options. It now says I'm 960 thousand under the cap. Last season I worked and worked to trim my cap room to 10 million under, resigned the guys I needed and continued to the next season 1.2 million under the cap. My first draft pick I choose a player, figuring it'll tell me I don't have the cap room to sign him because most all first rounders end up impacting at 2.0+ million. It says I'm 22.7 million under. I sign the guy, it says I'm now 20.1 million under, and I go to check my roster. I'm now 127 thousand over the cap. Whatever, I play the season. Now at the end of the season I go in to view ending contracts and what have you, I'm 4 million over the cap. I release a 5 million dollar player that's lost his abilities, it shows I'm 1 million under the cap. I go check free agency, I come back and it says I'm 143 thousand over the cap. Somehow my players are giving themselves raises or salary cuts when I'm not looking, but they hide it well as everything still adds up to the same when I look at the cap impacts.

The last thing this time. Free agency doesn't give you any clue what the player is looking for. You always have to try to sign him to find out. It may say 230k cap impact for 3 years on the FA screen, but when you try to sign he's looking for 5.3 million cap impact for 6 years.

Just more problems to add to my array. The more I play the game the more I wish I had kept my money. It's worth about 2 dollars though, it gives me something to putz around with in the general area of a football simulation.

[hoosiergoody]

tysok-

great recap. realize that this year's version was mainly a roster upgrade. it sounds like next year's version should be more of a re-vamp. Sharing the issues may get patches (one could hope), but more importantly, should be used to know what to fix next year.

Obviously the bread and butter of Mogul is the Baseball version, especially the Online version, though I haven't tried that one yet. While there are issues, they are frequently addressed. My hope is that the '07 version squashes many of the bugs that have repeated from year-to-year (free agent sign/drop/sign/drop issue is my biggest issue, and more than once it has been raised by many).

[Lordandmaster]

Ummm, that's the way it works in the NFL. There are no guaranteed contracts, and a player can be released at any time. So, yeah, I agree with a lot of your complaints, but this one doesn't fly.

I don't exactly understand how the salary cap works in this game, and strongly suspect that it's just defective. You can tell by monitoring teams' total salaries that some of them seem to be TRYING to stay under the cap, but over time more and more of them break the cap--apparently without suffering any penalties--until eventually almost every team in the league is over the cap. But if YOU try to go over the cap, you can't sign anyone. It also means that even if you do stay under the cap, it's essentially impossible to sign a quality free agent, because their salaries are all commensurate with a fictitious salary cap tens of millions of dollars higher than your own. In other words, all the teams that go over the salary cap push up the free-agent market.


The computer doesn't seem to realize that there is no penalty for releasing players. Although there's no way that this guy who's now 49 was signed when he was young and in his prime and it's just ending his contract. If a player becomes useless in the middle of his contract he can be cut. The computer doesn't seem to know this. Also the fact that there is no penalty for cutting the player means I sign everyone to 6 year deals no matter how old they are just so I can get the cap impact pushed down. Although since the computer doesn't have to worry about the cap, then why bother releasing anyone anyhow.

[Clay Dreslough]

There's a patch here (http://forum.sportsmogul.com/showthread.php?p=480650) addressing some of the problems, like teams going broke, and the talent imbalances.

I'll have to take a harder look at the salary cap and AI issues. Either I introduced a new bug at some point, or there's another reason we didn't catch these in beta.

Either way, this feedback is really helpful as a list of stuff to work on.

Thanks!

Clay

[tysok]

I know contracts aren't guaranteed in football, and I originally thought this wasn't any problem towards a realistic football game. Again, I don't actually know anything about football, I'm a baseball guy and all sports knowledge I have is in baseball.

I played a demo version of Siclismic, Soclemsic (something that began with an S) football. In there when I tried to release a player (I don't remember anything specific about this player or his salary) it threw up a box that said my cap would be hit for 1 million this year and something like 2 million next year if I were to release him now.

I don't know which game is right in this regard. It does seem that there would be some reason (other than just the players themselves) why a team would only want to sign someone up for 3 years instead of 6 (and thereby pushing the cap impact down). That speaking in terms of reality. I don't know, if there really isn't then you're right and that isn't a problem with the game with the exception being that the computer doesn't seem to know it.

[tysok]

If it is just the player that keeps teams from signing them up for 3 instead of 6 then perhaps there needs to be something built into the salary demands that the player won't allow this to happen.

Sorry bout a second post, it seems I hit the post button a little too quickly. :)

[MasterShake]

For the record -
There are no guarenteed contracts in Football, however due to that nearly every signing is based on a bonus structure. It's way more complex than this, but essentially while you can release a player, since you alreday are committed to his bonus (but not his salary) you are partially responsible for the bonus under the cap. It ends up being about half of what he's owed, so FBM is a bit off with allowing you to relase a player without any consequence. To me the bigger issue is that the computer teams do not release players in a reasonable manner. Dropping your top 29 yr old linebacker when you also have 3 punters making over 1.5 mil is pretty standard. The game needs MUCH better A.I. - to be competitive i have to handcuff my own moves. Other than that tysok is right on the money, i prob will just get Madden for my comp next year - its amazing that despite having such a great simming engine from BBM and thus great potential, that FBM is so weak. It's a game for serious football fans that seems to have been put together by a casual fan.

[tysok]

I've only located one more problem in the last 4 seasons I've played now. This one has surely been there throughout, I just haven't noticed it till now. At least from what I know, or thought I know, about football it is.

My team wins the division with 11-5 record. It has a bye on the first week of the playoffs. I should have home field in the second week, against the victor of one of the week 1 games. One of the wild card teams from another division, record 12-4, wins their playoff game and gets home field against me in the second week.

A wild card team never gets home field right? Especially, I would think, against a team that had the bye in the first week of the playoffs.

[MasterShake]

again - this game seems to have been put together by someone who had just "learned" football - yeah, teams are seeded 1-6 and homefield is based on that - the two bye teams are automatically #1 & #2.

[waltwa]

sports mogul went thru a period where all the games floundered. over the last couple of years bm and bmo have made a comeback and i am looking forward to the release of bm2007 in a month or so. however!!!!

football mogul is at a point where it should not be sold. it makes the company look very bad. i don't think sports mogul has the resources, at this point, to deliver more than 1 good game. football mogul should be placed on the shelf and all the company's efforts should go towards making bm and bmo as good as they can be. when those games have really advanced then fm can possibly be developed into a game that can be sold with a clear conscience.

by the way i did purchase the most recent edition of fm - played it a couple of times and then just gave up. actually i have purchased all the editions of fm because i like to support the efforts of game developers but i will not support fm again until i am convinced that there is a real effort to put out a solid product.

[JayDragon]

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Man I couldn't agree more.

I've managed on 4 occasions to go over 20 yrs(once playing 32 yrs) and after about 5 yrs the computer controlled teams are broke but still playing.It gets to the point you can't trade..can "sell" players or even have the computer teams be competitive.I've won as many as 7 straight super bowls and all because the computer teams can't compete.

Also...why is there no control over broadcast rights like there is in Baseball Mogul?Also,why can you counter a players offer in either Free Agency or in re-newing a contract?Ever notice if a players endurance is high he still gets hurt?

As much as I love football I gotta say this is the worst thought out game ever.And I like playing it...sigh

Now I have a problem in playing past week 7...it freezes regardless if I am going a month at a time or a week.

I think these guys just took the $$$ and ran and could care less what kind of product they put out.

[plainsong11]

I think anyone that paid for FM 2006 should be credited toward BM2007. It's the only way I'll continue doing business with Sports Mogul. FM2006 was a complete rip off and insult to loyal customers. But I don't think they really care.