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Thread: Mark McGwire / Hall of Fame

  1. #166
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    Re: Mark McGwire / Hall of Fame

    Don't forget Ty Cobb killed a man!

  2. #167
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    Re: Mark McGwire / Hall of Fame

    No kidding.

    I still think, as long as baseball itself doesn't kick the guy out their record should stand on it's own.
    You insist that there is something a machine cannot do. If you will tell me precisely what it is that a machine cannot do, then I can always make a machine which will do just that! -J. von Neumann

  3. #168
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    Re: Mark McGwire / Hall of Fame

    Just consider it a closed era and move on?
    Ty Cobb was also implicated in a gambling incident and let off.
    On a side note, The Red Sox are involved in gambling up to their eyeballs over the last few years. Their biggest local sponsor (on their own private network (well, shared 80/20 with the Bruins))is Foxwoods casino, until last year their second largest was a dog track, and now this year they've got a Massachusetts lottery scratch ticket. Now why is it that can't Pete come back again? Article on the ticket

  4. #169
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    Re: Mark McGwire / Hall of Fame

    Yea, basically. Baseball is starting to do things about substance abuse now, I just don't see how you can apply that retroactively and be fair about it.

    Pete Rose is a different story, but similar in a way. Baseball set a standard regarding gambling in 1919, and it's been consistent at least. The analogy between guys like Ty and Pete is apt here, in that Ty came before the gambling problems came to be recognized, and therefore he's in the Hall.
    You insist that there is something a machine cannot do. If you will tell me precisely what it is that a machine cannot do, then I can always make a machine which will do just that! -J. von Neumann

  5. #170
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    Re: Mark McGwire / Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by ohms_law View Post
    Yea, basically. Baseball is starting to do things about substance abuse now, I just don't see how you can apply that retroactively and be fair about it.

    Pete Rose is a different story, but similar in a way. Baseball set a standard regarding gambling in 1919, and it's been consistent at least. The analogy between guys like Ty and Pete is apt here, in that Ty came before the gambling problems came to be recognized, and therefore he's in the Hall.
    Well, there's also the fact that, as I understand it, the allegations against Cobb were never substantiated.

    For my short takes on MacGwire, Rose, and some others, see the Blyleven thread.

  6. #171
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    Re: Mark McGwire / Hall of Fame

    Right, which underscores the point. Nothing was done about Ty Cobb, so he's in. That may not be fair in that we may know something now, but the fact is that the allegations were not substantiated at the time. That doesn't make what he may or may not have done right, but it is not fair to go back and change what's been done already without some proof that is overwhelming.
    You insist that there is something a machine cannot do. If you will tell me precisely what it is that a machine cannot do, then I can always make a machine which will do just that! -J. von Neumann

  7. #172
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    Re: Mark McGwire / Hall of Fame

    It's the Hall of Fame... not the Hall of the Morally Righteous.

    If it were then Babe Ruth (unless I'm mistaken a drunkard in the era of Prohibition), Ty Cobb and others wouldn't get in either.

    You induct McGwire for his accomplishments, and you don't whitewash the contraversy. Ditto Rose, Jackson and whatnot. It's all part of the fabric (good and bad) of what makes the Game what it is. I can't believe that people think that denying an obvious Hall of Famer like Barry Bonds admittance to the Hall will make things "better". Won't anyone thing of the children!?!?!? That's my opinion.

    As to what I *think* will happen? As long as people are still indignant and trying to purge the stink of cheering madly for obviously juiced up supermen from their conscience, these guy's will stay out. Once the hoopla dies down, they'll get in. Though I do think it would be HILARIOUS if the all time Home Run and Hit leader (the towo biggest "glory stats") weren't actually in the Hall of Fame.

  8. #173
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    Re: Mark McGwire / Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by dolfanar View Post
    Won't anyone thing of the children!?!?!?
    LMAO!

    Cobb did it, and so did Tris Speaker and "Smokey" Joe Wood. After the Black Sox scandal Landis knew that this would finish baseball and broomed it. Mays and Mantle were also banned for being greeters in Atlantic City NJ casinos. They were later re-instated. But again, Why's Pete still out for gambling if the Red Sox are taking millions from gamblers? One of them the biggest casino in the U.S.A., a state lottery, and a dog track?

  9. #174
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    Re: Mark McGwire / Hall of Fame

    Because their money is green?
    Seriously, I don't know. But I'm sure that the Red Sox aren't placing bets, whereas I don't think you could say the same for Pete Rose...
    *shrug*
    You insist that there is something a machine cannot do. If you will tell me precisely what it is that a machine cannot do, then I can always make a machine which will do just that! -J. von Neumann

  10. #175
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    Re: Mark McGwire / Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by ohms_law View Post
    Because their money is green?
    Seriously, I don't know. But I'm sure that the Red Sox aren't placing bets, whereas I don't think you could say the same for Pete Rose...
    *shrug*
    The point remains that baseball's indignation over someone being a gambler is somewhat tempered by the fact they actually themselves profit from gambling. It would be like banning a player for being an alcoholic while naming a stadium Coors field.

    And again no one cares that Babe Ruth broke the law by drinking in his day... why because today it's no considered illegal/immoral. If Baseball is going to take in money from gambling, then the least it can do is lessen the hipocrisy and let Rose and Jackson in the hall...

  11. #176
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    Re: Mark McGwire / Hall of Fame

    As long as MLB reinstates them, I'd be happy to have them inducted into the hall.
    You insist that there is something a machine cannot do. If you will tell me precisely what it is that a machine cannot do, then I can always make a machine which will do just that! -J. von Neumann

  12. #177
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    Re: Mark McGwire / Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by ohms_law View Post
    Because their money is green?
    Seriously, I don't know. But I'm sure that the Red Sox aren't placing bets, whereas I don't think you could say the same for Pete Rose...
    *shrug*
    They are however taking money from gambling interests, and obviously, at least three interests. That's equally as bad as what anyone else has done and been baned for. Players have been banned for associating with known gamblers in the past, if the Red Sox taking ad money from three gambling outlets isn't a violation then all banned gamblers should be let back in with the exception of those who admitted throwing a game.

  13. #178
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    Re: Mark McGwire / Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by dolfanar View Post
    And again no one cares that Babe Ruth broke the law by drinking in his day... why because today it's no considered illegal/immoral.
    I think it's more because drinking is considered more a detriment to ability than a supplement, which makes Ruth's accomplishments more impressive. Temperance wasn't a popular law either, It's similar to, and really the forerunner to, our current "special interest" groups.

  14. #179
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    Re: Mark McGwire / Hall of Fame

    Eh... The Sox are accepting advertising money from legitimate business organisations, all above board and legal, who happen to be casinos. I don't think that a bookie qualifies as a legitimate business organisation, at least not in the US.
    You insist that there is something a machine cannot do. If you will tell me precisely what it is that a machine cannot do, then I can always make a machine which will do just that! -J. von Neumann

  15. #180
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    Re: Mark McGwire / Hall of Fame

    Baseball makes no distinction between legal gambling operations and illegal ones. That's what is keeping MLB out of Las Vegas, along with every other major sport on the planet.

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