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Thread: 2012 MLB Season Discussion Thread

  1. #541
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    Re: 2012 MLB Season Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by dickay View Post
    i guess the same with the hr/fb rate. is there a norm that you would compare it too, or do you more look at their career numbers and see if it lines up?
    Career numbers are a decent gauge, but league average tends to be around 10-12%.

  2. #542
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    Re: 2012 MLB Season Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by dickay View Post
    i haven't followed this too much, but as long as he didn't hit him in the head I have no problem with it. Also, didn't Hamels get his by a pitch later in the game. Sure he didn't "admit it", but you got the Nationals manager talking about how cowardly Hamels was yet at least he didn't hide it. I have no problem with what Hamels did and think MLB is a joke if they are going to punish someone for telling the truth yet let another have a pass when the world knows it was intentional. What a farce.

    but again, i haven't followed it that closely. lemme know if i'm missing something. I believe some take issue with his reasons for hitting him. A young guy new to the show being aggressive at the plate, maybe taking too much of it....i see no issue with Hamels giving him a "welcome to the big leagues, don't get too comfortable up there" moment. At least it was the NL where he couldn't hide behind the DH.
    I'd have no problem with Hamels trying to pitch inside to back him off the plate, but throwing at someone intentionally shouldn't be tolerated.

  3. #543
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    Re: 2012 MLB Season Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by dickay View Post
    i haven't followed this too much, but as long as he didn't hit him in the head I have no problem with it. Also, didn't Hamels get his by a pitch later in the game. Sure he didn't "admit it", but you got the Nationals manager talking about how cowardly Hamels was yet at least he didn't hide it. I have no problem with what Hamels did and think MLB is a joke if they are going to punish someone for telling the truth yet let another have a pass when the world knows it was intentional. What a farce.

    but again, i haven't followed it that closely. lemme know if i'm missing something. I believe some take issue with his reasons for hitting him. A young guy new to the show being aggressive at the plate, maybe taking too much of it....i see no issue with Hamels giving him a "welcome to the big leagues, don't get too comfortable up there" moment. At least it was the NL where he couldn't hide behind the DH.
    He's not being punished for telling the truth, he's being punished for breaking the rules. Plenty of pitchers have been suspended for intentional beanings regardless of whether they admitted it or not. Intentionally beaning someone is against the rules, end of story. When you violate the rules, you get punished. It's not complicated. What makes Hamels such an idiot is that, generally, it's hard to tell when a beanball is intentional, and since it was so out of the blue and unprovoked, he would have gotten away with it if he hadn't admitted it. But just because the rule is hard to enforce generally, doesn't mean that they won't enforce it once you admit to breaking it.

    The big issue I have is that Harper had done literally nothing to provoke it. Like I said, I don't believe Hamels' explanation for a second. Where's Lombardozzi's beaning? He's a rookie. Tyler Moore didn't get a beaning. And the lesson on being old school from the pitcher nicknamed "Hollywood" seems pretty out of place.
    Illini.

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  4. #544
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    Re: 2012 MLB Season Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonGM View Post
    The problem is simple - you shouldn't throw a baseball 90+ mph at a person intentionally.
    they're big boys. if you're going to throw inside or at a batter, all I demand is that you have superb control and not get near the head. I do think it's an important part of the game. I think intimidation is an important part of the game. I look at Randy Johnsons success as an example, one of the games most intimidating pitchers. Same with Pedro. They would come inside, they would hit you if you were taking too much of the plate. There was always a bit of fear there. No different than the intimidation factor with going over the middle in football, going into the lane in basketball, etc.

  5. #545
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    Re: 2012 MLB Season Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by dickay View Post
    they're big boys.
    That doesn't make them immune to being hurt by a baseball thrown at high speed.

    Also, like hac said, it's against the rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by dickay View Post
    if you're going to throw inside or at a batter, all I demand is that you have superb control and not get near the head. I do think it's an important part of the game. I think intimidation is an important part of the game. I look at Randy Johnsons success as an example, one of the games most intimidating pitchers. Same with Pedro. They would come inside, they would hit you if you were taking too much of the plate. There was always a bit of fear there. No different than the intimidation factor with going over the middle in football, going into the lane in basketball, etc.
    Pitching inside is different than intentionally throwing the ball at a player with the express purpose of hitting them with it.

  6. #546
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    Re: 2012 MLB Season Discussion Thread

    Quoting from the article I linked to earlier:
    What if Harper turns a little late or a little early and it breaks his wrist? What if the ball gets away from Hamels ever so slightly and runs towards Harper’s head? It doesn’t matter that neither of those things happened. When a hard-throwing pitcher intentionally aims a baseball at batter, he is acting recklessly and, in my view, maliciously, and that has no place in baseball.

    And spare me your “it has always been thus” arguments. Just because something is a tradition doesn’t make it right. People have had their careers ended by thrown baseballs before. A couple have even been killed. We decry cheapshots and intentional efforts to harm opponents in every other sport. We should feel no differently about it in baseball. And I defy anyone to give me a justification for doing so that does not rest on the “it has always been this way” defense. A bad act is a bad act no matter how many people have perpetrated it in the past.

  7. #547
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    Re: 2012 MLB Season Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by haveacigar View Post
    He's not being punished for telling the truth, he's being punished for breaking the rules. Plenty of pitchers have been suspended for intentional beanings regardless of whether they admitted it or not. Intentionally beaning someone is against the rules, end of story. When you violate the rules, you get punished. It's not complicated. What makes Hamels such an idiot is that, generally, it's hard to tell when a beanball is intentional, and since it was so out of the blue and unprovoked, he would have gotten away with it if he hadn't admitted it. But just because the rule is hard to enforce generally, doesn't mean that they won't enforce it once you admit to breaking it.

    The big issue I have is that Harper had done literally nothing to provoke it. Like I said, I don't believe Hamels' explanation for a second. Where's Lombardozzi's beaning? He's a rookie. Tyler Moore didn't get a beaning. And the lesson on being old school from the pitcher nicknamed "Hollywood" seems pretty out of place.
    that's fair. dumb rule in that MLB basically promotes lying rather than an atmosphere where at least it comes out. dumb of Hamels to hurt his team by doing something that will get him suspended and hurt his team. very fair point that it's often hard to determine if it's fair or not. i haven't seen Hamel's quotes, only offer conjecture. I heard it had something to do with old school baseball, welcoming the rookie to the league. Lets be honest, Harper comes with alot more hype than some of these other rookies you mention. The next big thing...surely you can see why he's more of a focal point. Vet's telling him something to the effect, "hey, we know you're good...don't get too cocky". Being singled out may be flattering to Harper rather than insulting. Nobody likes being thrown at, but I'm sure it's not the first time he's been thrown at either.

    and lets be real.....is there any doubt on whether Hamels beaning was intentional? Has Zimmerman been suspended? Hard to prove yes.....but pitchers have been ejected from games for less obvious beanings.

  8. #548
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    Re: 2012 MLB Season Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonGM View Post
    Quoting from the article I linked to earlier:
    agreed....sure he could be injured. players can be hurt in alot of ways. they all know the risks. these are professionals and if he's going to throw at him he's gotta be spot on. no excuses if he's not. a player going over the middle in football, if you're going to lay into him you have to give a legal hit. A hard but not flagrant foul going into the lane. I recall the recent hard pick on Lebron James. Any of these things could lead to injury.

    How many times do players get hurt trying to take out the 2B to break up a double play? Look at Ellsbury. Intentionally sliding into a player who's not blocking the plate is against the rules to. These are all part of the game and as long as it's done the right way, which isn't black & white or always possible i realize, i'm fine with it.

  9. #549
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    Re: 2012 MLB Season Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by dickay View Post
    agreed....sure he could be injured. players can be hurt in alot of ways. they all know the risks. these are professionals and if he's going to throw at him he's gotta be spot on. no excuses if he's not. a player going over the middle in football, if you're going to lay into him you have to give a legal hit. A hard but not flagrant foul going into the lane. I recall the recent hard pick on Lebron James. Any of these things could lead to injury.
    There's differences between making legal, risky plays and intentionally and illegally trying to hit somebody with a 90+ MPH baseball.

    Quote Originally Posted by dickay View Post
    How many times do players get hurt trying to take out the 2B to break up a double play? Look at Ellsbury. Intentionally sliding into a player who's not blocking the plate is against the rules to. These are all part of the game and as long as it's done the right way, which isn't black & white or always possible i realize, i'm fine with it.
    And if you maliciously and intentionally slide into a player who isn't blocking the base, you should be suspended, just as if you intentionally hit them with a pitch.

  10. #550
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    Re: 2012 MLB Season Discussion Thread

    and this part of his quote is not true, i've cited some examples already:

    We decry cheapshots and intentional efforts to harm opponents in every other sport.
    i don't think hamels was trying to harm him, nor would i call it a cheapshot. i could see how some could feel differently, but i disagree.

  11. #551
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    Re: 2012 MLB Season Discussion Thread

    And if you maliciously and intentionally slide into a player who isn't blocking the base, you should be suspended, just as if you intentionally hit them with a pitch.
    malice in these instances is very subjective. i don't think what hamels did was malicious.

    what you seem to be saying is, "sliding into a player who isn't blocking the base is fine as long as you don't do it maliciously".

    I say the same about hitting a batter intentionally.

  12. #552
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    Re: 2012 MLB Season Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by dickay View Post
    malice in these instances is very subjective. i don't think what hamels did was malicious.
    Trying to hit somebody with a baseball is malicious. A fastball to the body anywhere hurts. It may not injure but the intent is certainly to inflict pain.

  13. #553
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    Re: 2012 MLB Season Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonGM View Post
    Trying to hit somebody with a baseball is malicious. A fastball to the body anywhere hurts. It may not injure but the intent is certainly to inflict pain.
    nah, that's a stretch. he's not in any way trying to injure him. I don't even think you believe that. If you call a little pain malicious, i could say the same about sliding into a player. doing so in most cases will cause pain, just as hitting a player with a baseball usually causes pain. cmon now. by your definition, EVERY NFL tackle is malicious. Theres an extent of pain in every tackle. is there intent to injure though? no. not malicious.

  14. #554
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    Re: 2012 MLB Season Discussion Thread

    Don't be ridiculous. Going outside of the rules to intentionally hit a player with a pitch is far different from tackling in football or sliding into a base.

  15. #555
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    Re: 2012 MLB Season Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by dickay View Post
    that's fair. dumb rule in that MLB basically promotes lying rather than an atmosphere where at least it comes out. dumb of Hamels to hurt his team by doing something that will get him suspended and hurt his team. very fair point that it's often hard to determine if it's fair or not. i haven't seen Hamel's quotes, only offer conjecture. I heard it had something to do with old school baseball, welcoming the rookie to the league. Lets be honest, Harper comes with alot more hype than some of these other rookies you mention. The next big thing...surely you can see why he's more of a focal point. Vet's telling him something to the effect, "hey, we know you're good...don't get too cocky". Being singled out may be flattering to Harper rather than insulting. Nobody likes being thrown at, but I'm sure it's not the first time he's been thrown at either.

    and lets be real.....is there any doubt on whether Hamels beaning was intentional? Has Zimmerman been suspended? Hard to prove yes.....but pitchers have been ejected from games for less obvious beanings.
    Ok I don't even know what the hell you're talking about with the first sentence. Any time you do something wrong, it is obviously better to not get caught. Does the law promote lying by making it a crime to intentionally hit people with cars? C'mon with that. People have lied to gain an advantage long before baseball. The only time being honest about breaking a rule is beneficial is when they already know you did something wrong.

    I know he singled out Harper. He was gunning for the most visible Nationals player. I still don't think it had anything to do with being old school. I suppose it is flattering in a way, and that's probably why Harper just shrugged it off. He knows that he's got a bullseye on his back from his draft status and immense talent, but that doesn't make it ok to take shots at the guy.

    I don't think Hamels gets suspended if he doesn't admit to beaning him, simply because it would have been a lot less clear. MLB tends to err on the side of not suspending people.
    Illini.

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