Is this murder?

[haveacigar]

But if they weren't religious at all, the public reaction would be that the parents abused their child and they would most likely get at least involuntary manslaughter charges. But once religion gets involved, it's suddenly somewhat OK because they were following their beliefs and if you charge and sentence them for a crime, then you are persecuting their beliefs and they really didn't mean it for their kid to die.

And I guess woo Washington state for getting in the headlines

If there's no religious element involved, I doubt anyone even hears about it.

[dickay]

What if the parents weren't religious and they said something like, "He's a tough kid, we thought he would heal on his own"

this happens all the time...fortunately doesn't always lead to death though. do you know how many parents think that the issue is something minor the kid will work through and it's not? having young children I know how often you are at the pediatricians office and the vast majority of time it's just a virus they would work through but you feel the need to get it checked out. I also know how often pediatricians overprescribe antibiotics because parents want the doctor to do something. I also know that with all this parents often feel that they are not only burdening the pediatrician, but the symptoms are similar to the past dozen trips so lets have him wait it out a day or two. Not uncommon at all and not bad parenting.

It's not just with children. Very often we misdiagnose our own injuries and ailments as something less than serious. Kids who have a smaller tolerance for pain and/or can't communicate their ailments are even harder for a parent to diagnose. My kid just had a stomach bug and came crying that his stomach hurt. Should I have run to the ER? No, he was fine...but if it turned out more serious I guess I'd be a bad parent. So easy playing Monday morning QB from the cheap seats.

It's funny how society quickly critiques people who always run to the emergency room as hypocondriac's but then rushes to criticize them when they don't seek medical treatment soon enough. Catch 22. I'm not using that statement to compare the case this thread was about, i don't know the details, but just societal behavior in general.

[Kobie]

I'm not using that statement to compare the case this thread was about, i don't know the details, but just societal behavior in general.

Well, that's a good thing, since there's no comparison. I've had appendicitis. It's a little worse than a tummyache.

[guidi2009]

Same deal. They still didn't intend to cause bodily harm. And really, why would that be any different? It's not like I suggested that there was a "religious boobs" exception to the law.

I know you didn't suggest it, I was just asking.

[guidi2009]

this happens all the time...fortunately doesn't always lead to death though. do you know how many parents think that the issue is something minor the kid will work through and it's not? having young children I know how often you are at the pediatricians office and the vast majority of time it's just a virus they would work through but you feel the need to get it checked out. I also know how often pediatricians overprescribe antibiotics because parents want the doctor to do something. I also know that with all this parents often feel that they are not only burdening the pediatrician, but the symptoms are similar to the past dozen trips so lets have him wait it out a day or two. Not uncommon at all and not bad parenting.

It's not just with children. Very often we misdiagnose our own injuries and ailments as something less than serious. Kids who have a smaller tolerance for pain and/or can't communicate their ailments are even harder for a parent to diagnose. My kid just had a stomach bug and came crying that his stomach hurt. Should I have run to the ER? No, he was fine...but if it turned out more serious I guess I'd be a bad parent. So easy playing Monday morning QB from the cheap seats.

It's funny how society quickly critiques people who always run to the emergency room as hypocondriac's but then rushes to criticize them when they don't seek medical treatment soon enough. Catch 22. I'm not using that statement to compare the case this thread was about, i don't know the details, but just societal behavior in general.

To be fair there is a slight difference from what your describing and a appendix exploding.

[guidi2009]

Well, that's a good thing, since there's no comparison. I've had appendicitis. It's a little worse than a tummyache.

How bad is tummyache?

[dickay]

Well, that's a good thing, since there's no comparison. I've had appendicitis. It's a little worse than a tummyache.

Well I said that because I try not to formulate opinions without knowing actual facts. On the surface it surely is suspicious. That said I don't know the facts of this case, other than that the kid died and medical attention wasn't sought. I would like to think that since you have such a firm opinion on this case that you do in fact know most of the facts and have studied the case somewhat enough to formulate such a firm opinion. I would like to think you know something about this case, his symptoms, his tolerance for pain and medical history. I would like to think that...but knowing how you have such a propensity to rush to judgement on people based upon preconceived notions and prejudices that I really don't know.

In most cases appendicitis is painful, acute, and to the point where most know that medical attention is necessary. Not all. What little I've read of this case shows that the first night the kid had severe pains, he slept and had no pain in the morning. Was joking and felt better. At some point even went to basketball practice during this spell. This is all confirmed by people in the community. Parents thought he had the flu since the fever and aches came back....sounds like flu-like symptoms on and off again fever, shakes, and aches. From what i've read it's not uncommon for a ruptured appendix pain to subside and come on and off again for days or even weeks.

[dickay]

and funny the comments about appendicitis being different from a tummyache. You may want to tell that to the many parents and physicians that misdiagnose it every year.

http://www.tabexperts.com/Appendix.htm

Misdiagnosis of appendicitis, for example, is one of the top five most frequent successful malpractice claims against emergency physicians and accounts for 5-15% of the total dollars lost by insurers of emergency physicians

http://www.parents.com/kids/health/o...itis-children/

Even modern technology often misdiagnoses it.

http://scienceblog.com/community/old...200115765.html

[ragecage]

and funny the comments about appendicitis being different from a tummyache. You may want to tell that to the many parents and physicians that misdiagnose it every year.

http://www.tabexperts.com/Appendix.htm


http://www.parents.com/kids/health/o...itis-children/

Even modern technology often misdiagnoses it.

http://scienceblog.com/community/old...200115765.html

Classic dickay. Someone experiences something and he just goes to something else just to prove his point.

Hey Kobie, walk off that tummy ache you Nancy.

[dickay]

Classic dickay. Someone experiences something and he just goes to something else just to prove his point.

Hey Kobie, walk off that tummy ache you Nancy.

where am i going to something else? i'm just saying i'm not formulating an opinion without knowing the facts since that, as I've shown, misdiagnosis of appendicitis is actually very common and it's not always excruciating pain like people are trying to make it out to be. I am not refuting Kobies experience, most appendicitis pain is acute and extreme. Most....not all.

classic rage. doesn't read.

[HoustonGM]

If their son just had a weak case of appendicitis that they mistook for a stomach ache, would they have sat and prayed by his side and called religious elders in to anoint him with oil? I don't know all the details of the case, but I think those actions make it clear that this wasn't a case of them misdiagnosing appendicitis. They knew that whatever it was that was wrong with their son was serious.

[dickay]

If their son just had a weak case of appendicitis that they mistook for a stomach ache, would they have sat and prayed by his side and called religious elders in to anoint him with oil? I don't know all the details of the case, but I think those actions make it clear that this wasn't a case of them misdiagnosing appendicitis. They knew that whatever it was that was wrong with their son was serious.

they thought he had the flu. I sit by my sons side and pray when he's feeling ill. Because they prayed for his health is no reason to rush to judgement. I already said it seems suspicious and in this case may very well be a case of faith healing gone wrong.....but just because he died from a ruptured appendicitis or because they prayed for him is no reason to jump to such a conclusion. As shown with just a minimal amount of research, it's commonly misdiagnosed. Heck, the kid was laughing, joking, and went to basketball practice supposedly. Somewhat through basketball practice the coach felt he looked a bit ill and told him to sit the rest out, but he didn't see the need to call 911 or seek medical attention nor apparently did anyone else.

as HAC said, if this didn't involve faith healing nobody would have heard of it. It would be just another case of a misdiagnosed appendicitis that led to a fatality. It's not that uncommon apparently. How many of those have we discussed in these forums or have you heard about on the nightly news???? Because it involves someone a religious element though, we have people who WITHOUT FACTS wish to jump to conclusions based upon preconceived notions and prejudices. Profiling much? There is no disputing that.

[HoustonGM]

they thought he had the flu. I sit by my sons side and pray when he's feeling ill.

Do you call in your religious elders too?

I'm just saying, it sounds like they knew it was something more serious than a cold. Hell, we don't even have to focus on how they treated the whole situation. There's this about the father:

He testified during the trial that he knew 10 or 15 minutes before Zachery passed away that his son was going to die.

You "know" your son is about to die and you don't call an ambulance?

[dickay]

Do you call in your religious elders too?

I'm just saying, it sounds like they knew it was something more serious than a cold. Hell, we don't even have to focus on how they treated the whole situation. There's this about the father:

You "know" your son is about to die and you don't call an ambulance?

not into the house no, but i'm not judging because of that. i don't know their relationship with their pastor. in church we do ask for spiritual healing, good health, and sure we have asked for the father to pray for so & so because they are feeling ill. not uncommon.

as for the father's statements, again...i said I don't know the facts of this particular case. Did you know about that statement when making up your mind on this case prior to our dialog in this thread, or did you just look it up? I don't know the context or what was going through his mind. And i'm not speaking of you or kobie in general. I don't know what you know about this case. Fact is, this case would not be discussed if it didn't have a religious element as it's not uncommon for appendicitis to be misdiagnosed and most who are discussing it know nothing of the facts of the case other than some sensationalized headlines and rumor. That's the only point i'm making.

it's very possible, maybe likely this couple is guilty. my point is that people shouldn't be making up their minds however based upon preconceived notions and biases drummed up from sensationalized headlines and articles. Comments in this thread about "him having appendicitis, how could they not have known?" are easily dispelled with some simple research. It's not uncommon that it goes diagnosed. It's not uncommon that's its not excruciating pain. If most knew he went to basketball practice, and was laughing and joking and had flu-like symptoms, maybe they'd be more open minded. But no...we stop at the headlines rather than reading that part which is buried in paragraph 7 in 1 out of 5 publications.

[HoustonGM]

as for the father's statements, again...i said I don't know the facts of this particular case. Did you know about that statement when making up your mind on this case prior to our dialog in this thread, or did you just look it up?

I read the article before posting.